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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On May 05 2012 05:32 Treehead wrote: Ohhhh. You're making probes. That's what I was doing wrong! I just figured your strat was bad when I never got to 9 food to make my first pylon.  What? You make a pylon at 9 supply? I start with a gateway on 13. | ||
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WHyTePoWeR
Korea (South)132 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On May 05 2012 12:14 WHyTePoWeR wrote: would you be able to use this build for 6 gate pressure variation? I guess you can do a +1 6gate with the fast forge, so why not. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On May 05 2012 12:14 WHyTePoWeR wrote: would you be able to use this build for 6 gate pressure variation? You can do the 1 gate FE part into a 6 gate, yes. That's a very strong all-in play. Teoita is right that you can also use the forge timing to get +1 armor for the 6 gate timing. I'm not 100% sure whether it's better with or without the forge. It's faster without the forge, but +1 armor is great against unupgraded marines. | ||
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Plutonik
Canada329 Posts
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Fabriziox1
United States3 Posts
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
 Thank you very much for this build and in depth guide! I am using it as my standard build for PvT, in my goal to improve beyond platinum league. Currently I have great success with it, even against diamond players. PS. And yes, I registered just to say this. Been a lurker here for forever, but had to say thank you out of huge respect for you and your work. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:55 Fabriziox1 wrote: What woudl you do in response to a bansheee that hits around 6:35 or 6:40 while he is expanding in the back? On March 10 2012 06:19 kcdc wrote: If you see nothing at the natural and signs point to 1-1-1: 32 zealot (1 chronoboost) 34 robo 34 assimilator Pull your troops back to your natural. Use your 2 unit warp-in at 6:00 to warp 2 stalkers in to defend your mineral line in your main. Remember to actually put the stalkers IN the mineral line because it's going to be really annoying when hellions drop somewhere you don't expect and get free shots while your stalkers walk over. Build pylons at the normal times, but be sure to spread them to spot incoming drops and banshees. Send a probe to monitor T's natural, and chronoboost 2 observers as soon as your robo finishes. Take your third gas, and continue warping in stalkers and zealots. You want to prioritize stalkers as gas allows until you have about 6 for harass-defense. After ~6 stalkers, you want to favor zealots as they're better for defeating the eventual push. Keep 3 stalkers in each mineral line until the push comes. Get 3 more gates (total of 5) and cut probe production entirely when you reach ~38 workers. If it's a normal 1-1-1 with tanks, get an immortal after 2 observers and then spend your next 200 gas on a robo support bay. Having a colossus is important for beating late all-ins at 12:30 or later because the marine ball will get too big with too little surface area to beat it consistently with just zealots+guardian shield. If the push leaves earlier, you can just cancel the support bay to get out a couple extra units. Pull some probes off of gas as you'll mostly need zealots from this point on. If it's a 2-port banshee all-in, get a forge and a stargate. Cannon the crap out of your natural, get some phoenixes, and then get a support bay if he's just chilling outside your natural. If you have enough cannons, he can't push without tanks, and you'll have a colossus by the time he can start sieging your cannons. Kill whatever push he sends your way and collect your victory. If it's cloaked banshee into expansion instead of an all-in, do a 2 colossus timing with thermal lance. | ||
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ButtCraft
United States114 Posts
EDIT: To clarify, you said that there were no hard counters to this build. I believe a gasless FE into 3rd cc off of 1rax would pretty much hard counter this as you have no way to slow down the T macro if you're teching so greedily. A swarm of 3 base, max barracks MMM (no vikings, that's the key here, tonssss of medivacs) would handle this type of style. If you want we can test it out in a custom, I know I've run into you on ladder several times and this seems to work well against your style. User was warned for this post | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On May 07 2012 23:48 ButtCraft wrote: I think I can crush this with standard 3cc build. EDIT: To clarify, you said that there were no hard counters to this build. I believe a gasless FE into 3rd cc off of 1rax would pretty much hard counter this as you have no way to slow down the T macro if you're teching so greedily. A swarm of 3 base, max barracks MMM (no vikings, that's the key here, tonssss of medivacs) would handle this type of style. If you want we can test it out in a custom, I know I've run into you on ladder several times and this seems to work well against your style. User was warned for this post (1) I've played a ton and I've lost to many different things, but that doesn't mean those builds counter this one. Sometimes I just get outplayed. (2) Standard fast triple orbital is a very strong build, but it's definitely not a hard counter to this build. Yes, triple orbital eventually gets more stuff than a standard 2 base medivac build, but T's tech is delayed and a P using this build will have no problem securing their 10 minute third while pressuring with storm. T typically doesn't float the third CC to a base until I'm expanding to my third, so the resource advantage isn't as large as you'd think. Additionally, my tech advantage with storm is great for negating the extra marines that MULES give you, so the fast third CC isn't a big deal. (3) My build doesn't actually spend as much on tech as other common builds--it just spend the tech resources earlier and faster. If you think about a typical colossus build, P gets robo, support bay, thermal lance, twilight council, blink, charge and often 2 forges of upgrades. My build swaps the support bay and thermal lance for archives and storm (same cost) and I don't get blink or a second forge. So in the mid-game, I've actually spent less on tech than a typical colossus build, but by keeping my early game army as thin as possible, I'm able to get my tech up much faster. Compared to a colossus build, I have less stuff up to 8 minutes or so, but I have a bigger, more mobile force in the 10-16 minute window. | ||
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eery1
52 Posts
 Anyway, was just wondering about this style of desrow which gets fast storm too except off of 1 gate robo. storm 12min w/ no stalker build 4chrono on nexus skip zealot chrono first stalker 23 nexus 23 2nd gas 4:50 robo make 2 obs 5:50 +2 gates 6:45 double gas at natural 7:00 twillight 4sentrys then zealots 8:00 templar archive 8:20 charge 8:40 add 3 gates instead of warp in 9:00 start storm 9:10 add 2more gates up to 8 9:30 make 2 templar 10:30 have storm and start massing zealots double forge around 13min It seems REALLY greedy but I guess if the terran gives you enough of a window you'll be able to hold it for a long macro game. I don't know how this would do against early two or three raxes. It's like your build but lacks a forge and instead has 2 observers. I know that you don't like going robo because you'd lack gas but this build gets the four gases pretty fast so I guess that can kinda make up for the fact that you went robo? I just can't wrap my head around not getting and observer early-ish to be able to hold of crazy stuff. I mean, if you're experienced enough you can probably hold anything you've seen before no problem but like you said, a well executed 1-1-1 can sometimes get you and there are times that even you make mistakes with your reads so I would think that an observer would help or does it come out too late? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks :D | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
That sounds like a very reasonable build. I didn't watch the video, so I'm not sure exactly what the 1 gate FE is or how safe it is against early barracks pressure, but you could always swap the 1 gate FE's to whichever you prefer. It seems like desRow is doing the same 2 base templar build that I do against gasless CC except he goes robo -> storm -> double forge whereas I go single forge -> storm -> robo. The result is that he'll have more scouting information, but I'll have a stronger army until 17 minutes or so when his upgrades catch up to mine. I'll hit 1/3 before he hits 2/2, but he'll probably hit 3/3 before I do. It seems like a reasonable trade-off. For one thing, you'll be able to tell triple orbital from 2 base cloaked banshee. You'll also see marine-tank attacks coming which can be a little tricky since they can hit a little before your storm timing. On the other hand, the slower armor upgrades are a real cost when you're fighting marines with chargelots in the mid-game. All in all, I think it's reasonable, but I wouldn't say either option is better than the other. They're iterations of the same concept which is to time storm in such a way that you can afford skip stalkers, since skipping stalkers allows you a stronger army and faster tech. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote: Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE" I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 08 2012 23:30 NrGmonk wrote: I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else. Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Me like. | ||
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bgalang92
United States155 Posts
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On May 08 2012 23:41 Treehead wrote: Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the yea his first 1gate FE thread is quite similar to MC's 1gate FE, it's probably what eery1 was referring to | ||
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eery1
52 Posts
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eery1
52 Posts
On May 08 2012 22:23 kcdc wrote: Eery, That sounds like a very reasonable build. I didn't watch the video, so I'm not sure exactly what the 1 gate FE is or how safe it is against early barracks pressure, but you could always swap the 1 gate FE's to whichever you prefer. It seems like desRow is doing the same 2 base templar build that I do against gasless CC except he goes robo -> storm -> double forge whereas I go single forge -> storm -> robo. The result is that he'll have more scouting information, but I'll have a stronger army until 17 minutes or so when his upgrades catch up to mine. I'll hit 1/3 before he hits 2/2, but he'll probably hit 3/3 before I do. It seems like a reasonable trade-off. For one thing, you'll be able to tell triple orbital from 2 base cloaked banshee. You'll also see marine-tank attacks coming which can be a little tricky since they can hit a little before your storm timing. On the other hand, the slower armor upgrades are a real cost when you're fighting marines with chargelots in the mid-game. All in all, I think it's reasonable, but I wouldn't say either option is better than the other. They're iterations of the same concept which is to time storm in such a way that you can afford skip stalkers, since skipping stalkers allows you a stronger army and faster tech. Yupyup, definitely seems like a preferrence type deal. One gives more information via obs for safety as part of the build no matter what while the other doesn't seem to risk saftey as much as you'd think because it gives you a beefy enough army to handle most things. I'll probably play around with your build first just cuz you know better. Anyway, the stalker poking around is really useful and once you see a marauder or two it doesn't take a genius to guess what happens next. | ||
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ryx
Philippines38 Posts
)) [eery1 is the acct I made dabbling in sc2. I never really used this account cuz I never really had anything to say about BW lol]On May 09 2012 16:09 tuestresfat wrote: yea his first 1gate FE thread is quite similar to MC's 1gate FE, it's probably what eery1 was referring to Yeah, I was referring to the first kcdc 1 gate FE thread which was pretty much the same thing as the MC 1 gate FE haha. ZSS with a nexus at thirty into three gate robo :D Haha, I'm a NrGmonk fan too, don't worry )edit: Sorry for the double post. Won't happen again. I made a mistake and posted an edit in the wrong box... then I got excited about finding my old account... Won't happen again, promise <3<3<3 | ||
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