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[G] kcdc's PvT - Page 5

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kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
May 05 2012 00:32 GMT
#81
On May 05 2012 05:32 Treehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2012 04:34 kcdc wrote:
C'mon guys. I didn't specify every pylon just like I didn't specify every probe. I only listed the stuff that some people might do differently.


Ohhhh. You're making probes. That's what I was doing wrong!

I just figured your strat was bad when I never got to 9 food to make my first pylon.


What? You make a pylon at 9 supply? I start with a gateway on 13.
WHyTePoWeR
Profile Joined May 2012
Korea (South)132 Posts
May 05 2012 03:14 GMT
#82
would you be able to use this build for 6 gate pressure variation?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
May 05 2012 09:00 GMT
#83
On May 05 2012 12:14 WHyTePoWeR wrote:
would you be able to use this build for 6 gate pressure variation?


I guess you can do a +1 6gate with the fast forge, so why not.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
May 05 2012 19:12 GMT
#84
On May 05 2012 12:14 WHyTePoWeR wrote:
would you be able to use this build for 6 gate pressure variation?


You can do the 1 gate FE part into a 6 gate, yes. That's a very strong all-in play. Teoita is right that you can also use the forge timing to get +1 armor for the 6 gate timing. I'm not 100% sure whether it's better with or without the forge. It's faster without the forge, but +1 armor is great against unupgraded marines.
Plutonik
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada329 Posts
May 05 2012 20:57 GMT
#85
Pretty good style, thanks for taking the time to help us out!
Fabriziox1
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3 Posts
May 06 2012 16:55 GMT
#86
What woudl you do in response to a bansheee that hits around 6:35 or 6:40 while he is expanding in the back?
Shikada
Profile Joined May 2012
Serbia976 Posts
May 06 2012 21:32 GMT
#87
I can't believe no one mentioned this yet, but in your build order you forgot to mention that you build a pylon on 16, although that is easy to find out from one of your gracefully provided replays

Thank you very much for this build and in depth guide! I am using it as my standard build for PvT, in my goal to improve beyond platinum league. Currently I have great success with it, even against diamond players.

PS. And yes, I registered just to say this. Been a lurker here for forever, but had to say thank you out of huge respect for you and your work.
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
May 07 2012 01:09 GMT
#88
On May 07 2012 01:55 Fabriziox1 wrote:
What woudl you do in response to a bansheee that hits around 6:35 or 6:40 while he is expanding in the back?


On March 10 2012 06:19 kcdc wrote:


If you see nothing at the natural and signs point to 1-1-1:

32 zealot (1 chronoboost)
34 robo
34 assimilator

Pull your troops back to your natural. Use your 2 unit warp-in at 6:00 to warp 2 stalkers in to defend your mineral line in your main. Remember to actually put the stalkers IN the mineral line because it's going to be really annoying when hellions drop somewhere you don't expect and get free shots while your stalkers walk over. Build pylons at the normal times, but be sure to spread them to spot incoming drops and banshees. Send a probe to monitor T's natural, and chronoboost 2 observers as soon as your robo finishes.

Take your third gas, and continue warping in stalkers and zealots. You want to prioritize stalkers as gas allows until you have about 6 for harass-defense. After ~6 stalkers, you want to favor zealots as they're better for defeating the eventual push. Keep 3 stalkers in each mineral line until the push comes. Get 3 more gates (total of 5) and cut probe production entirely when you reach ~38 workers.

If it's a normal 1-1-1 with tanks, get an immortal after 2 observers and then spend your next 200 gas on a robo support bay. Having a colossus is important for beating late all-ins at 12:30 or later because the marine ball will get too big with too little surface area to beat it consistently with just zealots+guardian shield. If the push leaves earlier, you can just cancel the support bay to get out a couple extra units. Pull some probes off of gas as you'll mostly need zealots from this point on.

If it's a 2-port banshee all-in, get a forge and a stargate. Cannon the crap out of your natural, get some phoenixes, and then get a support bay if he's just chilling outside your natural. If you have enough cannons, he can't push without tanks, and you'll have a colossus by the time he can start sieging your cannons.

Kill whatever push he sends your way and collect your victory.

If it's cloaked banshee into expansion instead of an all-in, do a 2 colossus timing with thermal lance.

ButtCraft
Profile Joined March 2011
United States114 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 15:16:59
May 07 2012 14:48 GMT
#89
I think I can crush this with standard 3cc build.

EDIT: To clarify, you said that there were no hard counters to this build. I believe a gasless FE into 3rd cc off of 1rax would pretty much hard counter this as you have no way to slow down the T macro if you're teching so greedily. A swarm of 3 base, max barracks MMM (no vikings, that's the key here, tonssss of medivacs) would handle this type of style.

If you want we can test it out in a custom, I know I've run into you on ladder several times and this seems to work well against your style.

User was warned for this post
Sometimes you just gotta say fuck it, and swing for the fuckin fences
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 16:54:51
May 07 2012 16:52 GMT
#90
On May 07 2012 23:48 ButtCraft wrote:
I think I can crush this with standard 3cc build.

EDIT: To clarify, you said that there were no hard counters to this build. I believe a gasless FE into 3rd cc off of 1rax would pretty much hard counter this as you have no way to slow down the T macro if you're teching so greedily. A swarm of 3 base, max barracks MMM (no vikings, that's the key here, tonssss of medivacs) would handle this type of style.

If you want we can test it out in a custom, I know I've run into you on ladder several times and this seems to work well against your style.

User was warned for this post


(1) I've played a ton and I've lost to many different things, but that doesn't mean those builds counter this one. Sometimes I just get outplayed.

(2) Standard fast triple orbital is a very strong build, but it's definitely not a hard counter to this build. Yes, triple orbital eventually gets more stuff than a standard 2 base medivac build, but T's tech is delayed and a P using this build will have no problem securing their 10 minute third while pressuring with storm. T typically doesn't float the third CC to a base until I'm expanding to my third, so the resource advantage isn't as large as you'd think. Additionally, my tech advantage with storm is great for negating the extra marines that MULES give you, so the fast third CC isn't a big deal.

(3) My build doesn't actually spend as much on tech as other common builds--it just spend the tech resources earlier and faster. If you think about a typical colossus build, P gets robo, support bay, thermal lance, twilight council, blink, charge and often 2 forges of upgrades. My build swaps the support bay and thermal lance for archives and storm (same cost) and I don't get blink or a second forge. So in the mid-game, I've actually spent less on tech than a typical colossus build, but by keeping my early game army as thin as possible, I'm able to get my tech up much faster. Compared to a colossus build, I have less stuff up to 8 minutes or so, but I have a bigger, more mobile force in the 10-16 minute window.
eery1
Profile Joined June 2010
52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-08 03:19:58
May 08 2012 03:19 GMT
#91
Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"

Anyway, was just wondering about this style of desrow which gets fast storm too except off of 1 gate robo.



storm 12min w/ no stalker build
4chrono on nexus skip zealot
chrono first stalker
23 nexus
23 2nd gas
4:50 robo
make 2 obs
5:50 +2 gates
6:45 double gas at natural
7:00 twillight
4sentrys then zealots
8:00 templar archive
8:20 charge
8:40 add 3 gates instead of warp in
9:00 start storm
9:10 add 2more gates up to 8
9:30 make 2 templar
10:30 have storm and start massing zealots
double forge around 13min


It seems REALLY greedy but I guess if the terran gives you enough of a window you'll be able to hold it for a long macro game. I don't know how this would do against early two or three raxes. It's like your build but lacks a forge and instead has 2 observers. I know that you don't like going robo because you'd lack gas but this build gets the four gases pretty fast so I guess that can kinda make up for the fact that you went robo? I just can't wrap my head around not getting and observer early-ish to be able to hold of crazy stuff. I mean, if you're experienced enough you can probably hold anything you've seen before no problem but like you said, a well executed 1-1-1 can sometimes get you and there are times that even you make mistakes with your reads so I would think that an observer would help or does it come out too late?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks :D
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
May 08 2012 13:23 GMT
#92
Eery,

That sounds like a very reasonable build. I didn't watch the video, so I'm not sure exactly what the 1 gate FE is or how safe it is against early barracks pressure, but you could always swap the 1 gate FE's to whichever you prefer.

It seems like desRow is doing the same 2 base templar build that I do against gasless CC except he goes robo -> storm -> double forge whereas I go single forge -> storm -> robo. The result is that he'll have more scouting information, but I'll have a stronger army until 17 minutes or so when his upgrades catch up to mine. I'll hit 1/3 before he hits 2/2, but he'll probably hit 3/3 before I do.

It seems like a reasonable trade-off. For one thing, you'll be able to tell triple orbital from 2 base cloaked banshee. You'll also see marine-tank attacks coming which can be a little tricky since they can hit a little before your storm timing.

On the other hand, the slower armor upgrades are a real cost when you're fighting marines with chargelots in the mid-game.

All in all, I think it's reasonable, but I wouldn't say either option is better than the other. They're iterations of the same concept which is to time storm in such a way that you can afford skip stalkers, since skipping stalkers allows you a stronger army and faster tech.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
May 08 2012 14:30 GMT
#93
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote:
Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"

I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.
Moderator
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
May 08 2012 14:41 GMT
#94
On May 08 2012 23:30 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote:
Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"

I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.


Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the
Nyast
Profile Joined November 2010
Belgium554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-08 18:17:53
May 08 2012 18:16 GMT
#95
This was my standard build 6 months ago ( though less refined ). Then I decided to give a try to CreatorPrime's double-forge, and never got that much success with it. Recently I decided to go back to this build, and I'm definitely more comfortable with it. Holding the first stim + medivac push is so much easier, and your storm timing really makes Terrans think twice about attacking you, or trying to delay your third. In fact, if you do it well, you can make a very strong non-all-in timing push around the 11' mark, and delay Terran's own third ( or kill him if he was too greedy ).

Me like.
bgalang92
Profile Joined February 2011
United States155 Posts
May 09 2012 06:00 GMT
#96
I've been using this style with a lot of success, but I just played a puzzling game and I'm not sure how to react. The Terran opened 1 rax FE, and around the 7:30 mark I found no marauders, and VERY few marines. Only a single bunker. I figured banshees, so I built a cannon in each mineral line and got a robo, only to find that he got a third orbital. When his stim timing came I was too spread apart in my tech and had nothing. What is the correct response to this? I've been killed by late 1-1-1 variations or just plain cloaked banshees altogether and don't really understand what to do with these kind of styles.
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
May 09 2012 07:09 GMT
#97
On May 08 2012 23:41 Treehead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 23:30 NrGmonk wrote:
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote:
Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"

I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.


Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the

yea his first 1gate FE thread is quite similar to MC's 1gate FE, it's probably what eery1 was referring to
eery1
Profile Joined June 2010
52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 14:41:57
May 09 2012 11:16 GMT
#98
edit: whoops
eery1
Profile Joined June 2010
52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 14:47:37
May 09 2012 14:38 GMT
#99
On May 08 2012 22:23 kcdc wrote:
Eery,

That sounds like a very reasonable build. I didn't watch the video, so I'm not sure exactly what the 1 gate FE is or how safe it is against early barracks pressure, but you could always swap the 1 gate FE's to whichever you prefer.

It seems like desRow is doing the same 2 base templar build that I do against gasless CC except he goes robo -> storm -> double forge whereas I go single forge -> storm -> robo. The result is that he'll have more scouting information, but I'll have a stronger army until 17 minutes or so when his upgrades catch up to mine. I'll hit 1/3 before he hits 2/2, but he'll probably hit 3/3 before I do.

It seems like a reasonable trade-off. For one thing, you'll be able to tell triple orbital from 2 base cloaked banshee. You'll also see marine-tank attacks coming which can be a little tricky since they can hit a little before your storm timing.

On the other hand, the slower armor upgrades are a real cost when you're fighting marines with chargelots in the mid-game.

All in all, I think it's reasonable, but I wouldn't say either option is better than the other. They're iterations of the same concept which is to time storm in such a way that you can afford skip stalkers, since skipping stalkers allows you a stronger army and faster tech.


Yupyup, definitely seems like a preferrence type deal. One gives more information via obs for safety as part of the build no matter what while the other doesn't seem to risk saftey as much as you'd think because it gives you a beefy enough army to handle most things. I'll probably play around with your build first just cuz you know better. Anyway, the stalker poking around is really useful and once you see a marauder or two it doesn't take a genius to guess what happens next.
ryx
Profile Joined March 2006
Philippines38 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 14:54:47
May 09 2012 14:40 GMT
#100
SCORE!!! I FOUND MY OLD ACCOUNT!!! HAHAHAHAHA. Check out the join date on this baby )) [eery1 is the acct I made dabbling in sc2. I never really used this account cuz I never really had anything to say about BW lol]

On May 09 2012 16:09 tuestresfat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2012 23:41 Treehead wrote:
On May 08 2012 23:30 NrGmonk wrote:
On May 08 2012 12:19 eery1 wrote:
Been a fan since the 1000 post thread you made about the "MC 1 gate FE"

I think you're confusing kcdc for someone else.


Think eery's point was that kcdc made a thread theorizing one branch of the build commonly called the "MC 1 gate FE" way back before MC was doing it. I assume that's why he added the

yea his first 1gate FE thread is quite similar to MC's 1gate FE, it's probably what eery1 was referring to



Yeah, I was referring to the first kcdc 1 gate FE thread which was pretty much the same thing as the MC 1 gate FE haha. ZSS with a nexus at thirty into three gate robo :D

Haha, I'm a NrGmonk fan too, don't worry )

edit: Sorry for the double post. Won't happen again. I made a mistake and posted an edit in the wrong box... then I got excited about finding my old account... Won't happen again, promise <3<3<3
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