EPT[G] kcdc's PvT - Page 2
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darkcloud8282
Canada776 Posts
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
The main thing I've read from the write-up/the replay is that you don't get robo until way late. So the cloak ghosts that would be the response to archon/Templar tech would ravage your zealot sentry archon ball horrifically. Also archons/ht aren't Colossus, so the Terran is free to an early third(<9mins) while you save up for archons and spam medivac's only strengthening his front row of soldiers when you finally attack/defend. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes. Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base. Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00. thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this? i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version  | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 10:18 kcdc wrote: When I looked through my replays, I had one where I defended a 2-rax with 3 gates and went straight into chargelot/archon with a single forge. I couldn't have had storm in time, but chargelot/archon certainly worked well in that situation. Wouldn't chargelot/archon with feedback on the medivacs be out in time, generally speaking to defend the usual medivac timing, even if storm isn't nearly ready yet? If so, wouldn't a storm transition instead of colossus transition be just as viable? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:02 iTzSnypah wrote: I only watched only 1 replay because watching from kcdc's POV made me sick. Him playing soo slow with every camera movement smooth was torture on my mind. The main thing I've read from the write-up/the replay is that you don't get robo until way late. So the cloak ghosts that would be the response to archon/Templar tech would ravage your zealot sentry archon ball horrifically. Also archons/ht aren't Colossus, so the Terran is free to an early third(<9mins) while you save up for archons and spam medivac's only strengthening his front row of soldiers when you finally attack/defend. Yeah, I play slowly. Like I said, I usually face people with twice my APM. I actually play this style particularly slowly (it's about 20 APM lower than my PvZ or PvP) because (1) there's nothing to micro up till 10 minutes, (2) you need to babysit the hell out of your templar, and (3) there's a lot of on-the-fly decision making which slows me down. But I play slowly and consistently beat GM Terrans. Imagine what you could do if you play fast. Also, I get a robo at ~11 minutes. If a Terran has a ball of 6 cloaked ghosts by 12:30, they either don't have medivacs or they don't have upgrades. Either way, they're screwed. And yes, T can take an early third. But I'm taking a pretty early third myself and I'm getting upgrades and storm, so I'm not far behind on income and my units are more efficient. Fast third is one of my favorite styles to play against because you know medivacs and ghosts will be late. FWIW, I have a much easier time with this build vs fast third Terrans than I ever did with the double forge style. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:13 Whitewing wrote: Wouldn't chargelot/archon with feedback on the medivacs be out in time, generally speaking to defend the usual medivac timing, even if storm isn't nearly ready yet? If so, wouldn't a storm transition instead of colossus transition be just as viable? Yeah, I changed the guide to mention that you can go chargelot/archon out of the 3 gate early pressure defense. I think that's actually be my preferred response because I win a lot more with templar tech than I do with robo first. You can learn a lot about your build by writing a guide.... | ||
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AlphaDotCom
United States43 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:06 Forbidden17 wrote: thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this? i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version 3 on probes, 4 on wg, 1 on 2nd zealot is optimal if you start your sentry on 28 supply right at 50 minerals and start your zealot immediately as sentry finishes. I may not have realized it when I first posted the opening, the chronoboost on the sentry is not needed. If your macro is spot on, you only need 1 chronoboost between the sentry and zealot production, and it's better to do it on the zealot because this allows you to get your gateway or forge earlier. If you're going robo, chronoboosting the sentry or zealot makes no difference. Edit: Wrong again. 3, 3, 1 with 1 chrono saved for forge gets you WG at 5:50 | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 10 2012 16:18 AlphaDotCom wrote: why not get +2 armor first instead of +1 attack, you are massing chargelots and storm wouldn't armor help more. Is it cause your build doesnt give you enough gas or something or do u think attack is more useful? I used to do this, but +2 armor costs 50/50 more than +1 weapons, and that 50 gas actually slows down your charge and storm tech more than you might think. You're getting both upgrades pretty quickly, and things time out more smoothly if you get +1 weapons before +2 armor. It's not a huge deal either way--I just think getting +1 weapons first is slightly better. | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:02 iTzSnypah wrote: I only watched only 1 replay because watching from kcdc's POV made me sick. Him playing soo slow with every camera movement smooth was torture on my mind. kcdc plays fine... I don't see the point in bashing a guy providing free and valuable information. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
I love that build BTW, just wondering what your comments are on this thread and Reversible Jacket. | ||
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AlphaDotCom
United States43 Posts
On March 10 2012 16:40 CecilSunkure wrote: kcdc plays fine... I don't see the point in bashing a guy providing free and valuable information. apm is irrelevant to skill level, ever watch axslav play? | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On March 10 2012 16:20 kcdc wrote: 3 on probes, 4 on wg, 1 on 2nd zealot is optimal if you start your sentry on 28 supply right at 50 minerals and start your zealot immediately as sentry finishes. I may not have realized it when I first posted the opening, the chronoboost on the sentry is not needed. If your macro is spot on, you only need 1 chronoboost between the sentry and zealot production, and it's better to do it on the zealot because this allows you to get your gateway or forge earlier. If you're going robo, chronoboosting the sentry or zealot makes no difference. Thank you, I'm just a little shocked because I've been executing what I posted above for a few months now, able to get it down to the point where warpgate/2nd-gate/zealot finishes at the same time of 5:50 (within 1 or 2 seconds). Your more optimal variant takes one chrono off the gateway and uses it on warpgate which is essentially a 20s difference I'm missing out on. Btw could you explain how a 13gate warpgate finishes at 5:50 with 4-chronos? Is the core delayed or something? Pretty sure a non-chronoed warpgate off a 13gate would finish at 6:20 no? Regardless I'll try out your new variant! | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
You should try to fake a 6gate with your early zealot sentry to delay the terran slightly, pretty underused trick but very good if you stormrush and every second counts | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On March 10 2012 16:20 kcdc wrote: 3 on probes, 4 on wg, 1 on 2nd zealot is optimal if you start your sentry on 28 supply right at 50 minerals and start your zealot immediately as sentry finishes. I may not have realized it when I first posted the opening, the chronoboost on the sentry is not needed. If your macro is spot on, you only need 1 chronoboost between the sentry and zealot production, and it's better to do it on the zealot because this allows you to get your gateway or forge earlier. If you're going robo, chronoboosting the sentry or zealot makes no difference. Why nobody trusts me ever? :< Its 3/3/1. The 8th CB (4th on WG) would be rdy at 6 Minutes when you already warp in your first units. Edit: It is funny and frustrating at the same time to watch your replays. You botch your opening almost every single game and still get away with it. It appears I am influenced by 2 Rax to much. I have nightmares of correct executed 2 Raxes with 2-3 Autorepair-SCVs pulled for Bunker that leaves when you try to poke. I would lose the zealot and/or stalker if I poke like you do most of the time, which leaves me unable to defend the push if I botched my CBs like you do so often. No offense! As I said its funny and frustrating at the same time to see that ^^ Like in the first replay where your opponent is just another terran who thinks "Derp Derp 2 Rax is about surprise, better hide my 2nd Rax and lose time for no reason." -> later Shells -> 1-2 Freekills gone. On March 10 2012 13:06 Forbidden17 wrote: thanks for checking! any chance kcdc would care to confirm this? i use 2 on probes, 3 on wg, 1 on sentry, 1 on zealot (which i think is what kcdc used to do a few months ago) and it seems to line up to 5:50. guess i'll try this version The version from last year had scout after gate which resulted in a slight probecut at 27 Food (Nexus). If you resumed Probes first and then built a Sentry and boosted that and the following zealot (with 1 cb coming from probes) you got to the same warpgatetiming as the current build but with different cb distribution (2/3/2) and ~2 Probes less. | ||
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ximae
181 Posts
On March 10 2012 07:57 Xanatoss wrote: I am using kcdc's 1 Gate FE almost every PvT and can highly recommend it. Its very resilient, versatile and cuts almost no probes. Another branch I play very often against gasless FE is still going for the Robo but skipping Observers and going straight for a prism while adding 2 more Gates. I then drop his mineral line(s) while pressuring his Front with my initial units and potential reinforcements from a proxy pylon. Currently most Terrans are not used to this kind of fast drop and botch their army distribution, allowing me to do damage at the weaker spot with additional warpins. Anyways the main reason to do this is not so much damage but the fact that I can go straight into Colossi + single Forge and assemble a really strong Followup and establish my third base. Just checked. Its 3 on probes, 3 on WG, 1 on Gateway during Sentry or 2nd Zealot. 8th CB would be rdy only at 6:00. tottally agree with u i do exactly the same on both the crono timings on the 1gate fe build and my reaction to a gasless expo. i do change the build a bit when its gasless fe though skimp a bit more on the dps units favouring more econ (gas) and sentries. get a fast third while getting 2 immos + sentries and going up to 5-6 gates to be able to defend his possible counter push or medvac timing. all while slowly teching to colo. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:06 kcdc wrote: Crap after checking, I still got it wrong. 3 on probes, 3 on WG 1 on zealot is right. You have 7 to use.but 4 on WG makes it finish too fast. Better to save the last chronological for forge. And yes. I botch my chronological a lot cuz the poke the nexus and the infrastructure buildings all seem to happen at the same time and my mechanics suck. 2 tax is a joke vs this build even with botched chrono tho. Yes because Terrans equally suck executing it. | ||
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Geiko
France1929 Posts
 Just thank you for another awesome guide <3 | ||
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