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On May 09 2012 15:00 bgalang92 wrote:
I've been using this style with a lot of success, but I just played a puzzling game and I'm not sure how to react. The Terran opened 1 rax FE, and around the 7:30 mark I found no marauders, and VERY few marines. Only a single bunker. I figured banshees, so I built a cannon in each mineral line and got a robo, only to find that he got a third orbital. When his stim timing came I was too spread apart in my tech and had nothing. What is the correct response to this? I've been killed by late 1-1-1 variations or just plain cloaked banshees altogether and don't really understand what to do with these kind of styles.
I'm a little confused by your question. If they're doing a 1-base build, you don't go 2-base templar. Instead, get gateways and a robo and play accordingly.
If they're doing a gasless CC opening, then I go 2-base templar. One of weakness of skipping the early robo against gasless CC is that you usually can't tell 2-base cloaked banshee from triple orbital, so when you scout no marauders and a low marine count with your stalker pokes, you have to build a robo and an obs before you get storm if you want to play safe. The cost of the robo and the obs slows you down a bit and isn't optimal against triple orbital, but it's not that bad either. You don't know whether they're going triple orbital or cloaked banshee, but you do know that they're not doing a fast medivac timing, so it's okay for your storm timing to be a little late.
And of course, getting the robo only when you're forced to is more cost efficient than getting it every time in order to scout whether you were forced to.
Also, I don't think you need the cannons. I believe gasless CC -> cloaked banshee finishes cloak at about 9:00, so as long as you start your robo by 7:35 or so, you shouldn't take too much damage. The upcoming observer buff reducing build time from 40 seconds to 30 seconds should allow you to start your robo as late as 7:40 or so and still be safe without cannons.
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Thanks for this build, KCDC. I've been reading the thread since you originally posted it but my focus has been on PvP and PvZ. I just started using this 2 days ago and I really enjoy the way Terran run away when they scan my 2 templar.
I've grown so tired of opening robo and I feel that Terran's have gotten so good at sniping single collosi. They usually stim and run into me when they do their 10:30 medi timing attack. Now, they are running home.
Storm is also more fun. I understand why you play slower in this MU when going templar. They require a lot of babysitting and positioning to make work.
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Thanks guys, glad you like the build and that it's working for most of you. Post some reps! I've forced myself to stop playing (SC2 was taking too much time, and I'm too competitive to only play a little), so I'd love to see how the style is working for others. It's a fun style to watch.
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Wait, as in you've quit SC2? Please no.
I'm really having issues with cloakshees as well, or at least the threat of them. At work, don't have replays, yada yada, but if you'd be so good....
Particularly this bit:
On May 10 2012 02:20 kcdc wrote:You don't know whether they're going triple orbital or cloaked banshee, but you do know that they're not doing a fast medivac timing, so it's okay for your storm timing to be a little late.
How do you know they're not doing the medivac timing if you're only poking with one stalker, though? That's my problem.
I'm finding that they can consistently shoo me away with a small handful of marines in a bunker and never show me what they've really got, unless they're stupid enough to leave a marauder at their ramp. I'm thus forced to take a robo and slow my storm every game, and I've died a couple times upon finding out that there was 'rauder/stim back there after all.
Now, I'll readily admit I'm terrible, but I just don't feel like the single stalker poke threatens the terran enough to make him show his hand. What other tells do you look for to confirm banshees/triple OC? What about rine only medivac timings?
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Just count units and make a read. A safe triple orbital or cloaked banshee build should have 3 bunkers, so if there's only 1, you should have a good read that they're planning aggression. And maybe Terrans only started getting smart recently, but when I played, they rallied their marauders to the front so that you could scout that first marauder before they finished concussive shells just about every time.
And I don't know about marine-only medivac timings. In my experience, the medivac timing would hit at 10:30 like clockwork, but I think I saw an MKP game where he had his double medivac timing between 9 and 10 minutes. I'm not sure what he did differently, but that could be hard to beat with my build. I'm not exactly sure what it was tho--maybe he cut upgrades or had a smaller force or something.
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Something I really dislike about this build is the lack of a robo. In the majority of the parting games I've watched this season (even the very similar 2 base templar build he does on entombed valley in the gstl finals and his editted fast 3 base builds), he gets a robo to be safe. The thing about skipping robo is that any trickery from the terran can kill you and thats a risk that parting at least does not want to take apparently.
If the terran goes for fast 3 cc and only builds one bunker, you get a bad read. If the terran goes for banshees and gets a bunker, you get a bad read. If the terran hides his marauders, you get a bad read. It seems like if the terran knows his stuff or tries to mind game you, you can never get any real info from poking the front. Something I'm sure parting has realized too is that its not worth it to lose to something stupid like cloaked banshees or some other weird build and the robo keeps you safe from that. If you watch partings build on entombed at the gstl finals, he uses a build very similar to yours but with slightly later timings. I suggest that anyone using a 2 base templar style at least watch those games and think about adding in that robo for the observers.
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On May 10 2012 12:45 kcdc wrote:
And I don't know about marine-only medivac timings. In my experience, the medivac timing would hit at 10:30 like clockwork, but I think I saw an MKP game where he had his double medivac timing between 9 and 10 minutes. I'm not sure what he did differently, but that could be hard to beat with my build. I'm not exactly sure what it was tho--maybe he cut upgrades or had a smaller force or something.
Oh and the medivac style you were looking for hits at 9:30 and is also on the mkp vs parting game on entombed. He gets a fast +1 weapons before any addons i think and pushes out with stim and no combat shields with his first two medivacs rallied. You should be able to hold with an archon and good forcefields, its only like 2 medivacs worth of units. The real trouble is knowing where the attack is, but parting has 2 observers so he can see the army movements of parting.
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Does parting's build still have storm in time for the 10:30 push?
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So I went back to check all of partings timings on his stuff, and it turns out he delays storm and charge for a lot longer than I thought he did. Not entirely sure why.
Some differences between the kcdc templar build and partings templar build:
kcdc gets faster 3rd gas
kcdc gets a faster forge and gets the +1 weapons by 10:30 (100 gas)
kcdc gets a fast storm and charge (400 gas)
parting gets a robo and 2 obs (250 gas)
parting goes up to 6 stalkers and gets 4 templar at the 10 minute mark (2 for feedback and 2 for an archon) (150 more gas for the stalkers, and 300 for the 2 templar, 450 more total).
So the difference in kcdc's build and partings is actually quite different. I suspect that there must be some wonky timings between 8-10 minutes that parting wants to be safe against, so he delays storm and gets out more units and observers but I'm not entirely sure why he skips both storm and charge. The 2 base templar I do gets a fast robo, skips charge and gets storm instead but I'm not sure the reasoning for partings decisions (if any knowledgable toss can step in here  ).
Also, I was wrong on the medi timing for mkp, he hits at around 9:50-10:00, not 9:30.
If anyone wants to check out the games, here's a couple.
MKP vs parting at gstl (both the game and the regame)
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/67091/?set=4&lang=
parting vs polt in code s round of 32 group h
THIS GAME IS FREE TO WATCH!!!! (yay gom)
(polt does a slightly later 2 medi timing than mkp, parting does the same build)
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67119
EDIT: Game 4 of MVP vs Parting last night, why i dont like partings 2 base templar build anymore x.x
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Thanks for the comments Zalo. A lot of helpful information there.
I do think you can afford to get a robo and an obs and still have templar out in time to be safe without stalkers--it might be close, but you could delay an upgrade if you really had to.
But the robo timing doesn't need to be earlier than 7:40 to be safe against cloaked banshees, so why not do a 7:30 stalker poke and make the robo only if you don't see a marauder? You're still 100% safe, but you've also allowed yourself the possibility of a more efficient build in the event that you are able to scout a marauder.
The alternative would be to get the robo blindly every game which is no safer or more efficient than what I'd do. The one advantage of the blind robo is if you're committing to getting it blindly, you don't have to wait for the 7:30 scouting cue when a marauder should reach T's front, so you have more freedom about when you build it. If you get it earlier, it will disrupt some other timing in the build, but you'll also have an observer earlier to scout what T is doing.
I will caution that there is a difference between information and actionable information. If you're going to jerk your build around to get an early observer, you want the scouting information it gives you to significantly alter your build. Personally, I suspect that I wouldn't change my timings much in response to scouting most Terran builds I can think of. Maybe against triple orbital, I'd take my third on 3 gates instead of 6 and chronoboost upgrades instead of storm and charge research. But for 4 out of 5 games, the information would just be an expensive security blanket that wouldn't change my build at all, and I would have been better off trying to delay or skip my robo.
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United States8477 Posts
I used to do a similar style to kcdc's and the main reason I stopped was the lack of robo. There are 2 main circumstances where I found I really wanted the robo, not including vs the fast 3cc build.
The first is when you're against a 2 base banshee opening. Even if you assume you can poke the front, find a lack of units, and re-actively build a robo, you run into another problem: you don't know what the terran followup is because of your delayed robo. He can either take a greedy 3rd behind it(with or without tanks) or do a 2 base all-in. You won't be able to send an observer to scout it out in time, because you need to keep your first 2 obs at home.
The 2nd is versus drops. Without observers, it's hard to keep all your bases in check. I found myself consistently being doom dropped by terran and even though I had a templar and 6 chargelots in position to intercept, it wasn't enough versus 4+ medivacs. Often it felt like a crapshoot and I didn't like the uncertainty the lack of observers brought.
There are also a lot of other subtle things that parting does different from every other protoss. Instead of the traditional 3->6 gates, parting always goes 3->5->7 gates. In adidition, parting's style revolves around observers just as much as it does templar. The observer/templar combination is what makes him so scary late game. Parting goes 3 very early sentry and stops there, which is a common trend evolving in PvT, fewer sentries in the early game. Parting goes for a rather fast templar archives to use as an initial gas dump for archons and feedback. Because of the fast robo/obs, parting's twilgiht/templar archives are delayed so if parting researches charge or storm, they won't be done by the time a standard 2 medivac push would hit, so instead he relies on units to fend off the initial push. Instead of charge or storm, he relies on observers, stalkers, and feedback to stop initial drops. Then he more gradually fits in both charge and storm.
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Monk, if your concern is having vision for a 4 medivac timing, it's very easy to get an observer before 11 minutes. I don't recall exactly the time that I tended to get my robo, but as a general rule, the later you get it, the less it disrupts your build. A 7:40 robo is a small disruption, but a 9 minute robo should be easier to work in.
Anyway, the robo timing is really a matter of preference. If you want a very early robo, you can do what a lot of the pros do which is to get a robo before the forge, start +1 armor when I'd start +1 weapons, and go straight into +2 armor. This would essentially be skipping +1 weapons and getting an early robo and obs instead. Your storm and charge will be 125/75 slower, but that's just a 10 second or so delay.
I played with a delayed obs because I didn't feel like I needed it earlier. I could see the medivac timing coming from a watch tower, and it seemed that storm and charge shut drops down cold until I had an observer short after the timing. But getting an obs is a minor tweak, so don't the fact that I didn't get an observer chase you away form this build.
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On May 11 2012 00:23 NrGmonk wrote:
Because of the fast robo/obs, parting's twilgiht/templar archives are delayed so if parting researches charge or storm, they won't be done by the time a standard 2 medivac push would hit, so instead he relies on units to fend off the initial push. Instead of charge or storm, he relies on observers, stalkers, and feedback to stop initial drops. Then he more gradually fits in both charge and storm.
Something I noticed, is that if you take your 3rd gas and 4th gas when parting takes only his 3rd, you can fit in a quick charge or storm, depending on preference. Its nice to have charge at 10ish minutes along with the rest of the tech parting gets.
Something I've been experimenting with is doing a nexus first into forge with this build. Its a bit rough atm, but I get 0/2 out in time for the medivac push, along with observers and a fast charge that finishes at 9:30. The timings early game are a bit rough but I think you should experiment with the ffe, the fast upgrades complements 2 base templar quite well. Also, you can get your 3rd/4th gas alot quicker to give you more wiggle room for extra tech.
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I've been trying to replicate your overall style during the past two months or so and I have to say that I really really like it! Your 1 gate FE opener has been my opener in every single PvT game for the last 6 months.
I especially like your responses to the no gas T FE and the two rax. I thought you couldn't get away with only two gates against a gasless FE but it actually lines up really nicely with the 10 min medivac timing as long as you don't screw up your warpins. Having two templar with storm actually bolsters your army so much that you can crush the push with almost no losses yourself.
Thanks for the guide man. Love your work.
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kcdc,
I would like to say first off, thank you for writing up this guide. It is working wonders and has really improved my PvT.
I have a few questions regarding Warp Gates off of two bases.
You state in your guide that a Protoss player should be able to fend off the typical Medivac push from a Terran player with consistent Warp-ins using only two warp gates. While I find this to be true, I never know when is the right time to put down additional Gateways and a Robo for the thirteen minute push. It would be so helpful if you specified around when you put down the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th Gateway. Please keep in mind that my macro is nowhere near perfect, and this additional information could potentially help me get a solid foundation down.
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Hi vizi,
Glad you like the build. I quit playing a long time ago (but I still watch games and check in on TL from time to time), so I honestly don't remember much more than I wrote in the guide. This part might be what you're looking for tho:
In general, I recommend getting to 6 gateways as you warp in your 1st 2 templar and then starting your third nexus. This is good on a map like Shakuras Plateau where the third base is kind of far away, and it gets the nexus started shortly before 10:30. Alternatively, you can take your third nexus after your 4th gate which gets the nexus timing into the lower 10's. This is good for maps with a relatively close third like Cloud Kingdom. On Entombed Valley, you can actually take the third nexus off of 2 gates under 10 minutes.
After you have 6 gates and your third base started, build a robo when resources allow, and then add 4 more gates up to a total of 10. By about 13 minutes, you should be out on the map holding a central watch tower with 1 templar in each base for drop defense. Take 2 probes and build pylons all over the map. 1 probe should build probes in areas that will be useful to reinforce your army and the other should build pylons all over for map vision.
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Ah kcdc i remember i used to play you a lot back when i was on the ladder, we always had great games. I stopped playing for a long time for the same reason you did, taking up too much time and i cant just play SC a little because of how competitive i was. Things have calmed down for me now tho and i take medication to take my competitive edge off so ive started gaming again the last two months, already back in top 8 masters :oP
hope everything outside of SC2 is going good with you. Good guide btw too bad i dont play protoss to use it ;o)
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On August 31 2012 09:45 Pookie Monster wrote:
Ah kcdc i remember i used to play you a lot back when i was on the ladder, we always had great games. I stopped playing for a long time for the same reason you did, taking up too much time and i cant just play SC a little because of how competitive i was. Things have calmed down for me now tho and i take medication to take my competitive edge off so ive started gaming again the last two months, already back in top 8 masters :oP
hope everything outside of SC2 is going good with you. Good guide btw too bad i dont play protoss to use it ;o)
Thanks, yeah, we had some epic games. You had good variance in your styles--I think I remember hard-hitting bio timings, bunker contains, harass openings, mech, maybe even some mass air shit. So annoying, hah. Good luck dude.
On September 04 2012 01:13 Sated wrote:I just finished editing the LP article on this build so that it matches this guide rather than kcdc's old guide. I don't personally play this style so all I've done is transcribe over the original post, so if someone who has more experience with the build could give it a scan to point out any obvious mistakes (or anything that might need changing) to me via PM then that'd be cool.  Kcdc&(It bugs me how LP decided to capitalise the first letter of that page name )
Thanks for putting that together! It looks really good. I wonder if anyone uses LP tho. Of course, it'll be used more if it has high-quality content, and you did a nice job with it. When I had last checked LP, it had basically nothing that was relevant to the modern game, so hopefully others are doing great work on it too.
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EPT
