EPTEg; (?)
Early forward pylon
stalker zealot chrono boosted
third(fourth??) pylon missing from main base
no chrono on probes
-and obviously 4gateways.
what am i missing, and are things i listed wrong?
How to spot a 4gate?
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IamNatural
64 Posts
Eg; (?) Early forward pylon stalker zealot chrono boosted third(fourth??) pylon missing from main base no chrono on probes -and obviously 4gateways. what am i missing, and are things i listed wrong? | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
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RodYan
United States126 Posts
Your opening was Gas-less No nexus by 6min mark | ||
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battyone
United States180 Posts
On March 07 2012 03:06 IamNatural wrote: What are common things that indicate a 4gate is coming? Eg; (?) Early forward pylon stalker zealot chrono boosted third(fourth??) pylon missing from main base no chrono on probes -and obviously 4gateways. what am i missing, and are things i listed wrong? Only takes 1 gas. High chrono energy. No robo, no expansion. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8065 Posts
Forward pylon is a dead giveaway. Chronoboost on cybernethics core (not on zealot/stalker/sentry) Count probes. If he stops at 20, you know he's up to something. Only 2 pylons in base. Altough if you can see that, you should be seeing his gateway count as well.. If you see one or more of the above, an alarm should be going off in your head. But its also important not to overreact in case its not a 4gate. So a build that lets you defend it and tech/get an economic lead at the same time is the perfect choice. 4 gateways is, yes, a good indication that your opponent is thinking of 4gating. On the things you are wrong about: Chrono on probes is somewhat wrong, as the first 2 chronoboost are always on probes. After that, thought, they're all on the core. And they don't chrono out zealots or stalkers..not if they want to be efficient anyways. Then again, I have seen some weird variations of it. | ||
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Like a Boss
502 Posts
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Wrath98
7 Posts
"stalker zealot chrono boosted" this shouldn't happen all chrono should be on WG except the first two on nexus. Look for 1 gas, saved up chrono that is being used on WG, and zealot stalker as first two units. I wouldn't worry about the pylons too much, 4gate wont drop one til after the gates are thrown down and 3rd stalker is being built. So you most likley won't see a 3rd/4th pylon until its at your front door. | ||
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transience
Belgium74 Posts
- Often they will only chronoboost probe production twice and then save up energy to continually chronoboost the warp gate research. Keep an eye on the energy levels on the nexus. - Most one base builds include a second gas around 18 supply. Keep a worker alive in their base. A Protoss only taking one gas signals a fourgate. - Usually the Protoss will first create a zealot and then a some sentries if he's planning to sentry expand. If you scout his front and the second unit created is a stalker, expect a fourgate. | ||
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jonesthemad
Germany11 Posts
if he doesnt build probes past 20, has no gas and high cb its almost always a 4gate. | ||
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Dzerzhinsky
Scotland327 Posts
1. Keep your SCV in their base until around 4 minutes (just before their Stalker comes out). 2. If they have 1 gas and a lot of saved up Chrono (pre-Cybercore) a 4gate is likely, so you want to prepare to prepare. 3. Send your scouting SCV back into their base at around 5 minutes, making sure to check the natural on the way. 4. If there is no Nexus you are almost definately looking at a 4gate or heavy 3gate pressure. 5. Since the Stalker will usually be out on the map poking around at this time there is a good chance that you'll get in and be able to scout what he's doing anyway. 6. The 4gate hits between 5:30 and 6 minutes, so you have plenty of time to panic, calm down and then throw up bunkers before it arrives. There are other tells such as seeing a forward Pylon, or simply noticing that the third Pylon (usually built around 4 minutes) isn't in the main, but these are less reliable and ultimately unnecessary. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8065 Posts
On March 07 2012 03:14 Wrath98 wrote: You probably missed the biggest one which is one gas. "stalker zealot chrono boosted" this shouldn't happen all chrono should be on WG except the first two on nexus. Look for 1 gas, saved up chrono that is being used on WG, and zealot stalker as first two units. I wouldn't worry about the pylons too much, 4gate wont drop one til after the gates are thrown down and 3rd stalker is being built. So you most likley won't see a 3rd/4th pylon until its at your front door. The problem is that there are 4gates revolving around 2 gasses as well. Where they keep a high sentry/zealot count instead of stalkers. Altough this is mainly vs zergs. | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
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sandman1454
United States96 Posts
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Iridium
Sweden90 Posts
On March 07 2012 03:12 battyone wrote: Only takes 1 gas. High chrono energy. No robo, no expansion. This guy has it! | ||
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niladorus
Greece116 Posts
My question is: how do you work from here? do you simply drone a lot or is there any way to punish the sneaky bastard right there? edit:apologies if i am off topic | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On March 07 2012 04:13 niladorus wrote: And lets say that you indeed spot (as a zerg) a 4gate, and the guy simply does not attack and the P now has 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and makes 2? sentries hold idle gates and expands. so you may or may not have commited in lings, prolly metabolic boost and 2-3 spines (cause you were expecting the push. My question is: how do you work from here? do you simply drone a lot or is there any way to punish the sneaky bastard right there? edit:apologies if i am off topic Your question doesn't really make sense. If he builds for a 4-gate and then just... expands... then you probably just win. Seems like good punishment to me. This is kinda like saying "let's say I scout a 7-roach rush, and sat on 1 base for an additional minute building to fend off the rush - except then he cancelled the roaches and expanded instead". The build you're describing... it's not good, mainly because it has 450 minerals worth of buildings used purely for misdirection. | ||
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
this is the best way to scout for early aggression without having to actually see anything that he is building. but if you happen to scout his expo timing or even get into his main, that is just icing on the cake. | ||
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IamNatural
64 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
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timmc
Australia16 Posts
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
As a zerg player, I can tell you that you cannot assume it is a 4 gate when you see the second unit coming out of the gateway is a stalker and have only 1 gas. It could be 1 gate expand, a DT rush or a stargate push on 1 base, or 4 gate. So the correct response as zerg would be, if you don't see him expand by 5:30 (1 gate expo timing), get an evo chamber, and put down 2 spines and 1 spore outside of your natural, and make about 28-32 drones by 6:00, then all lings until you hold off push. it should be enough for holding off 3 gate stargate / 4 gate, and be prepared for DT rush. | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
Keep a close eye on his initial units, that is the easiest indicator. He wants / needs to bring his 1-2 stalker / zealot force from his base to meet up with the force warping in at the proxy pylon. You should be getting speed against any 1-base opening, and you should be sending in an overlord to scout around 5:45. If the base is empty, make sure to send a ling around the map checking for proxies, both pylons and tech. If his second unit is a stalker, it's usually an indicator that he wants to hoard gas for some other purpose, and if the third unit is also a stalker, he's up to something. Making 2-3 spines and 1 spore against 1-base play is almost always worth it. Don't overcommit to defenses, and keep in mind that, so long as you have a slight worker advantage, you should be hard pressed to lose the game. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
Also, if you see 3 pylons in their base but only 1 gateway, they are not 4 gating. If you dont see the third pylon starting before their stalker completes then either it is somewhere on the map (send first marine to scout) or they are 4 gating. The clarify: If they made a zealot thenThe third pylon should start after the stalker starts but before the stalker finishes. If they are 4 gating then the third pylon wont come until after the extra gateways. | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
On March 08 2012 10:52 timmc wrote: Low level scouting is overrated because no one really knows what the hell they're doing lol. Just have at least one sentry to ff the ramp, make units and you'll be ok. A shitty 4gate isn't nearly as scary as a realy 4gate. A pro level 4gate hits before you have anything to produce off except your 1 barracks and most likely no tech. The non pro level 4gates are much shitter, like if the 3rd pylon is up in base then you'll gain an extra 20-30 seconds, same with the second gas. The biggest key to a 4gate is the third pylon. If you don't see the third pylon use your marines to scout around your base for potential forward pylons and pull them back to your bunker when his stalkers probably coming cross map. The third pylon is key, if he has 3 in his base then it's a shitty 4gate or another build. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On March 08 2012 12:26 Host- wrote: Thing about no expo by 5:30 is that dt expand, sg expand and most commonly 3gate expand. Typically though, if its not down by 5:30 you'll want 2 spines just incase. All 3 of those require him to get his second gas before the stalker comes out. A 2-gas 4 gate is going to be later and easier to hold. If he has 2 gas and 3 pylons then he is definately not going to be 4 gating. | ||
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Marooned
Norway161 Posts
On March 08 2012 12:09 Filter wrote: A shitty 4gate isn't nearly as scary as a realy 4gate. A pro level 4gate hits before you have anything to produce off except your 1 barracks and most likely no tech. The non pro level 4gates are much shitter, like if the 3rd pylon is up in base then you'll gain an extra 20-30 seconds, same with the second gas. The biggest key to a 4gate is the third pylon. If you don't see the third pylon use your marines to scout around your base for potential forward pylons and pull them back to your bunker when his stalkers probably coming cross map. The third pylon is key, if he has 3 in his base then it's a shitty 4gate or another build. Tell me more about this please, sounds interesting  | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
2 gas 4gate (zealot/sentry) is much harder to hold imo. Basically what you have to do is build 2 spines blindly, even if they end up expanding anyway. This leaves you room to drone and pump emergency lings incase they are all-inning you, or even if they are simply doing a risky 6~ sentry pressure behind an expansion. Most people will probably claim that isn't an all-in, but it's a huge commitment to sentries across the map, so if you kill all of those you've won the game right there. The 2 spines are absolutely critical (need them before 7 minutes typically) in stopping this type of attack. You simply use your lings/queens and drones to support the spines and never let them run up your ramp. When this aggression comes don't be afraid to go up to 4 spines too. Roaches in large numbers can help, but you won't be able to make them this early in the numbers needed, so lings and spines are necessary. | ||
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spatz
Germany153 Posts
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LanTAs
United States1091 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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MadProbe
United States269 Posts
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bpat
United States157 Posts
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On March 08 2012 12:52 Marooned wrote: Tell me more about this please, sounds interesting Not much to say lol, whenever you see pros 4gate, they only build two pylons in the main and time their third pylon so that they can warp in at the proxy immediately once their gateways morph into warpgates. You only need two pylons since you're cutting probes at ~20 and end up either 24 or 26 supply (depending on whether you made another stalker or not behind your first zealot and stalker). Amateur players put down more pylons in their main because they 1. forgot to cut probes 2. built more units from their initial gateway, meaning they didn't consistently chrono their core That third pylon is the 4gaters ticket to warping in as soon as possible, which is really important when you're 4gating. | ||
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Carbonthief
United States289 Posts
On March 08 2012 12:09 Filter wrote: A shitty 4gate isn't nearly as scary as a realy 4gate. A pro level 4gate hits before you have anything to produce off except your 1 barracks and most likely no tech. The non pro level 4gates are much shitter, like if the 3rd pylon is up in base then you'll gain an extra 20-30 seconds, same with the second gas. The biggest key to a 4gate is the third pylon. If you don't see the third pylon use your marines to scout around your base for potential forward pylons and pull them back to your bunker when his stalkers probably coming cross map. The third pylon is key, if he has 3 in his base then it's a shitty 4gate or another build. Actually not quite true. It doesn't matter a 3rd pylon is in his base or not. What matters is if he makes it before adding on the 3 gates, which is bad. In a solid 4 gate, after you add on your 3 gates, you can afford 2-3 pylons depending upon whether you made a 3rd unit or just went zealot stalker. Most people proxy all 2-3 pylons to increase the chances of one surviving. But it does not screw up the build order at all to make one back at home, and in fact can be beneficial if you're afraid of your artosis pylon getting sniped by a counter attack. The old standard zealot stalker 4 gate was engineered for pvp because you could build a proxy away from the ramp and 2 more right up in their face and it's almost impossible to kill the pylons that are in your face before they get a warp in, because stalkers don't actually do damage. Now it's harder to get vision of the high ground so you can stop this with forcefields. But before the patch that finally nerfed this, you could run your zealot and stalker up against a perfect forcefield and get enough vision to warp onto the high ground. And THAT is why pvp used to be exclusively 4 gate vs 4 gate. | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
If your zergling get killed at his ramp but u dont see him moving out, then wait 10 seconds, then go see if he expend, if so, cancel ur 4 spines, and get back to drone. If u made tons of lings cuz u over reacted and he expend, no big deal, u got 2 base and him 1, u can try to snipe some sentrys at his nat or harrass. I hope it helps. I know as a terran you need 2 least 2 bunkers but i dont know that much on timings. | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
-High energy on Nexus Honestly, i don't think it is an indicator, there are lot's of builds involved with chronoing core. What is an indicator is LOW energy on Nexus, it indicates it is not a 4 gate, but rather some eco build. - No expo Not an indicator. There can be various 1 base plays, safe expos, delayed expos, so it is still not an indicator to 4 gate. - 1 gas Yes! This is really a possible 4 gate, but it also possible for 1 gate expo, but be on alert. - 20 Probes and no light on nexus. Bingo. If you managed to scout that - 90% that 4 gate incoming. - 2 pylons. Also a big indicator. If you have time - go probe/pylon hunting, you kill pylon - 4 gate is not going to be very powerful. just remember the timings 5.30 - 6.00 you need to be on full alert. - Spotted Robo. Not really - cuz It can be 4 gate/Prism. ZvP - Pylon hunting with lings and couple of spines should get you enought time to build roaches if you confirm a 4 gate. TvP - 2 bunkers will almost always deny a 4 gate. PvP - Is it Tal'Darim? - Yes he is 4 gating. On other maps - there is a big thread about 4 gate is dead, you should check it out right now. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
a) hes a bad player - not spending chrono will put you ahead in economy in the early game. b) hes going for agression Lets assume you went for Gasless expo into 4 rax marine (wich is really common atm) Now you throw down 2 bunkers at the front, while constantly making marines and SCV and scanning his natural at the 6 minute mark again he now has options to wich you can react A) you see an expo, - you can play a little greedier now because you will be ahead in army and economy at this stage, attacking might not be the best option b) You see no expo - i) He went for some tech play - DTs / Stargate / 1 base colossus ii) His 4 gate is going to hit you soon in wich case (your WAY ahead in economy at this point)- you can keep your 2 bunkers keep 3-4 scvs at the front to repair, get an ebay Possibly cut SCV Stargate play will die to this Dt play will die to this 4g will die to this Expo at 6:30 will put him way behind the rest of the game | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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taitanik
Latvia231 Posts
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drakhl
17 Posts
For a well timed 4 gate those 3 extra gates are going down approximately just as the first stalker is finishing (non-CBed stalker. If hes CBing anything other than warpgate this is probably not a 4 gate or hes just bad). This is when warpgate is 35-40% compelete. Those 3 gates finishing line up with WG tech finishing of course, and +10 blizzard seconds later the warp in. My warp in usually comes around 5:50 or so and Im at your ramp by 6-6:10 (unless i was fortunate to get a pylon up directly at his ramp). But as for spotting it, its crucial to keep your scout alive as long as possible. The protoss player is not going to throw down those extra 3 gates until your scout is gone (if he does you're in amazing shape). That means when the zealot pops and you see his gateway come to life again for the stalker you know you have X amount of seconds before you GTFO. Stay as long as you can because ideally I want to throw down those gates before my stalker is done. If you delay the 4 gate even by 5-10 seconds its a big deal. You can kite the zealot around for infinity, only worry about his stalker. If you are SUPER worried about 4gate then just hide your scout somewhere. Around 5 minutes hes going to leave his base with his zealot + stalker + probe. Pop into his base and see if you can scout it. If you see a 4 gate you got 50 seconds to throw down bunkers/spines/make units whatever. That right there is the difference between life and death. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
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WGhyperion
United States2 Posts
On March 07 2012 03:06 IamNatural wrote: What are common things that indicate a 4gate is coming? Eg; (?) Early forward pylon stalker zealot chrono boosted third(fourth??) pylon missing from main base no chrono on probes -and obviously 4gateways. what am i missing, and are things i listed wrong? ez just see how many gas they have well thys easiest way :D | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
That and 20 probes? | ||
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Deleted User 255289
281 Posts
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ZerO_0
United States137 Posts
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