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[G] amonkey's "Ultimate" PvT Sentry/Colo Drop

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-26 19:43:32
February 20 2012 07:17 GMT
#1
Overview
This build, sentry drop into colossus drop with speed, is a very strong, safe build which still allows for aggression. It relies heavily on your ability to even the harvester count with drops, even if you take a later expand and tech up. Even if one component of the aggression fails (the warp prism dies, sentries don't kill many workers, etc.), you should still be in an okay position and able to continue harassment while staying safe. This build emphasizes micro over macro, although having strong macro obviously doesn't hurt.

When To Use
+ Show Spoiler +
This build may be used against Terran 1, 2, or 3 rax expo or pressure builds. I assume that it would be okay to use against a 4 rax build, but 4 rax seems to have fallen out of fashion. Caution should be used when the Terran player seems to be going for a factory/starport opening (namely 1/1/1, cloak banshee, or hellion drop). If you suspect such an opening, or see 2 gas or 2 marines with no tech lab on the first rax, you can use the defensive immortal build outlined in this guide.


Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
9 pylon + scout
10 chronoboost probes
13 gate
15 gas + chronoboost probes
17 pylon
18 core
18 or 19 gas
20 gate
21 warpgate research. Chrono this research once, ideally when there's an SCV in your base.
21 stalker. After the stalker completes, check the front of their base to make sure that they have expanded. If they haven't, follow the build but make 1 observer and immortals instead of a warp prism and expand.
24 pylon + chrono probes. Cut probes for ~1 second to get the pylon up before chronoing. If done correctly, probes will be continuously making thereafter. If you lost your scouting probe, you shouldn't need to cut at all.
26 double sentry
31 pylon (while sentries are making)
32 robo
33 chrono probes
Make 2 zealots, then a pylon when you have the resources
If immortal defense
+ Show Spoiler +
Chrono out an observer or immortal depending on the position and size of their army. Make an obs or immortal afterwards, making the unit that you don't already have.
Make 1 stalker and position units to counter banshee or hellion drop, control the map with your first stalker and watch for hellion run-bys through the front.
Expand
Begin immortal production
Defend as you normally would vs a 1 base Terran; you should also be in a good position to immortal bust should their attack fail.

Warp in 2 sentries
Load the sentries up and drop!
~49 robo bay
Expand + pylon
Get warp prism speed and the first colossus as soon as you have the money. The need for gravitic drive is much more immediate than the need for the first colossus in most scenarios. It also takes 5 more seconds to complete.
Make obs as necessary, transition into chargelot/HT/immortal/archon afterwards.

**Notes: Your warp prism should complete at around 7 minutes.
If done correctly, your 32 pylon, robo, and warp gate research should finish within seconds of each other.
You should have 75+ chrono saved up on your main nexus by the time your robo bay finishes. You may use them to get faster prism speed/colo, or spend them on probes.


Dealing with Different Terran Openings
+ Show Spoiler +
Aggressive Rax Openings: If you scout T moving out with an aggressive rax opening, chances are that they have invested quite a bit into their attack. From here you have 2 options: follow the immortal defense build, or destroy their economy using a warp prism while their army is away. If you opt for the latter, ensure that you warp in a sentry at the top of your ramp before moving out with your warp prism. This will delay either your speed or your colossus, but you will likely do more damage than you normally would with your sentry drop in this situation.

Slow Expands: If you suspect an expo with your probe scout, but see an empty natural with your stalker scout, it's better to be safe and follow the immortal defense, scouting as soon as possible with your first observer.

Factory Openings: If you scouted 2 gas or some other obvious tell for a factory opening before your stalker comes out, you can abort the build and follow up with a build you're comfortable with. At that point, you should have opened up standard (13 gate + 15 gas) anyways. Alternatively, go for the immortal defense. From there, defend the 1/1/1 or factory build as you normally would.

Expand into Pressure: These attacks usually come after your first sentry drop in their main, and typically have stim, no medivacs, and pure bio. At this point, you should have a colossus on the way and a warp prism heading back to your own base. If you feel that the attack will be too hard to defend with colossus and warp prism micro, add a second colossus and sentries with your main army. If you feel safe enough, make observers and immortals. Transition as outlined below. If they commit to the attack and you hold it off well, you may be able to counter while expoing, as their viking production is probably delayed.

Fast Third Base: If you scout a fast third, you can typically take a fast third yourself. Since they're not really in a position to attack, you can chrono out your upgrades and get all of your necessary tech. You may also be able to punish their third, depending on the amount of damage you've done with your drops.


Transitioning
+ Show Spoiler +
While harassing with sentries, add 1 colossus with speed while warping in zealots. While harassing with the colossus, you should be able to begin your transition into HT/archon/chargelot/immortal by adding a twilight council and additional gates. Take a fast 3rd/4th gas at your natural. Make observers as needed while beginning constant production of immortals. This transition renders your opponent's defensive vikings useless. If they don't make any vikings, you should be able to harass their army down to a point where you can attack with chargelot/immortal and kill them.


Train of Thought While Doing this Build
+ Show Spoiler +
9 scout with a probe and look for 2 gasses or multiple rax openings. If a multiple rax opening is scouted, decide between this build or immortal defense (as outlined below).

Open as if you're doing a 2 gate 5 stalker rush, but make 2 sentries, followed by 2 zealots after your first stalker. Stalker scout, looking for an expo or lack thereof, as well as any aggression. If you see an expo, continue the build. If you see aggression, do the drop build or immortal defense. If you do not see an expo, it is probably safer to do the immortal defense. Position your sentries + zealots back at home such that an SCV scout isn't easy for your opponent.

Assuming that you're continuing with this build, make your warp prism and 2 more sentries and drop. While doing this, get a robo bay and expand. Usually, you only get one opportunity to drop in your opponent's mineral line before they have units there. Kill as many workers as you can (target them down so that your sentries don't try to kill marauders/marines!), fly away and only harass the buildings lying on the outskirts of your opponents base.

After your first drop, it's macro time! Focus your attention back on your base; make warp prism speed and a colossus. Chrono boost both as much as possible while chronoing probes out of your 2 nexuses. Make a twilight council and slowly add 3 more gates. Double forge, expand again, or add more gates if you feel that you've done enough damage with your sentry drop, or if you can't spend your money.

If you see an attack coming at this time (probably pure MM, stim, no medivac), unload your warp prism and keep your colossus with your army. You may also want to add another colossus if your natural is difficult to defend. If there is no attack, or if you easily defend, keep pressuring with your colossus. Make observers as necessary and begin immortal production. By now, they should be making either vikings or missile turrets. If they have, continue the harassment but don't go deep into their base with the warp prism. If they haven't, you should be able to kill a ton of rax units for free. Add forges, templar archives, zealots, and gates when possible.

Once you feel that you cannot harass anymore without losing your prism, back off and play your standard PvT zealot/archon, using the warp prism to gain map control.


Countered By
+ Show Spoiler +
- Fast cloak banshee into expo
- 1/1/1
- Hellion drop
- Blind turret in the mineral line (soft counter)
- Fast starport/stim marine a la vVvRuFF (I'm assuming...haven't found him on ladder in a while...)
**Note: the immortal defense works pretty well against all of the above, with the exception of fast starport/stim marine. Probably.


Common Mistakes
+ Show Spoiler +
Overextension: Your first warp prism dies full of sentries: While not game ending, the loss of the first sentries causes you to be more vulnerable to incoming attacks. You're forced to make extra sentries, which is never a good thing. However, you may still chrono out another warp prism after your first colossus due to the warp in of more gas-heavy sentries. Your tech will be delayed, but if your opponent engages poorly or if you harass well, the tables may easily turn in your favor.

Overextension: Your second warp prism dies with a colossus: Not nearly as severe as losing your first warp prism full of sentries, often encourages a push from the Terran. If you spot an incoming attack after losing your second prism + colossus, chrono out a replacement but don't rebuild the warp prism. If no attack is incoming, continue with the chargelot/HT/archon/immortal composition.

Misread: They bunker the nat, but don't actually expo: If you've kept your first stalker alive and just outside of their base, you should be able to react and deal with a rax pressure. If they're going cloak banshee behind their nat bunker, chrono out an observer, warp in a stalker and position your sentries to defend. You may choose to cancel or keep your robo bay, depending on how you defend 1/1/1s (the most likely follow up to fast cloak banshee). Continue with your sentry drop in this scenario and do as much damage as possible before returning to your base.


Useful Facts
+ Show Spoiler +
Speed prisms move as fast as stimmed marines
Slow prisms have 0.25 more move speed than unstimmed marines
Sentries attack in pulses, each pulse lasting ~1 second.
It takes 2 pulses from 4 unupgraded sentries to kill an SCV.
It takes 3 pulses from 4 sentries to kill a MULE.


Ideal Maps
+ Show Spoiler +
Maps with a lot of room around the main mineral line are ideal.
Good Examples: Shakuras Plateau, Tal'Darim Altar, Shattered Temple, Antiga Shipyard.
Bad Examples: Xel'Naga Caverns, Entombed Valley, Metalopolis in certain positions.


Replays and VODs
+ Show Spoiler +

More replays + replay descriptions to come! Currently away from my main computer + all of its replays...

Ladder Session (All PvT against danP, Moosy, FXOStrelok, and Christhorpher) Games against danP, Moosy, and Strelok go well but the game against Christhorpher gets really ugly. He kind of throws the game after gaining a decent advantage, but it still takes a lot from me to pull out the win. My macro abilities have receded a bit as well, but it seems like the build is still somewhat viable.
Vod:http://www.twitch.tv/binarygaming/b/316175309 at 0:01:05, 0:20:45, 0:32:50, and 0:56:40 respectively.
Replays: http://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/mXSSJkoys+YoFRPmwMMSP9rNdLz9hHYk

Win VS aiRAbsolute: Holding early marine tank SCV all-in.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?lw2gweum7g34dee

Win VS Ewic: Holding 1-1-1. After scouting no gas, I see no expo and no marine at the top of his ramp and abort the build. Initially I suspect a 2 rax SCV all-in and respond with a could-be 5 stalker rush. I abort that build as well, as his 2 rax never comes. Then, I suspect a hellion drop when his expo is still not at his nat. I position my units out and get an observer out in time for a cloak banshee.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?57b5faf4mxsqg56

Win VS coLdrewbie: Emphasis on transition. Drewbie goes for a 1 rax expo into 5 rax. He pressures with his 5 rax so I keep my sentries in my base. Drewbie overextends into my colossus, then I overextend. As I begin to colo harass, drewbie gets out 2 vikings and kills my warp prism. Continuing viking production afterwards, he has 5 not-so-useful vikings and no map control. I take a faster third and just have more stuff.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?ksco642rbnpxozd

Loss VS EGDeMusliM: Closest thing I have to a proof of concept. Everything goes wrong in this game while I simultaneously disgust and perplex DeMusliM, with emphasis on the former. I lose my initial warp prism with all sentries, lose a bunch of workers to a drop, but I still come out in a decent (but definitely not favorable) position for most of the game. I end up dropping before the game ends, but DeMusliM offers valuable replay analysis from a Terran's perspective at the end of the VOD.
VODs: http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/308996850 at ~2:59:00 to end of VOD and beginning of http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/309013091.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?f5o7827vnyd0fa0

Win VS DaSakura: In this game on Antiga, my execution was a bit off, but everything turns out just about the same. I scout DaSakura last, so I assume that she FE'd when I scout her marines + bunker in front of her natural. She actually went 1 rax gasless FE into 4 rax, so I got lucky ^^. I get a decent worker lead with my sentry drop and do a fair bit of harassment with my colossus. DaSakura responds with a massive bio/medivac/stim counter, which I engage at a poor angle. Relatively good colossus micro saves me from the situation my awful macro puts me in.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?1fmd7cid8vev70v

Win VS Mug: A standard execution of this build on Antiga. Mug opens with a 1 rax expo into 3 rax. Despite seeing my robo and suspecting a drop, I manage to kill 5 SCVs. He also gets a very fast starport, which begins producing vikings as soon as he sees the colossus. I escape with my colossus and prism, but its out of position for the counter which he sends to my nat. After defending my nat, a faster third and hefty worker advantage wins me the game.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?wff2wv4g21ltqr4

Win VS UMADIMSTYLIN: A standard execution of this build on Shattered. UMADIMSTYLIN goes for a 1 rax gasless FE into marine 5 rax. He attempts to counter after my sentry drop and has pure marine vs a colossus.
VOD: Starting at 7:50 http://www.twitch.tv/binarygaming/b/308402591
Replay: Coming soon!

Win VS tGensulator: I overextend with my colossus in this game on Tal'Darim Altar. tGensulator goes for a 1 rax FE into 3 rax, and because of my mistake he gains an eventual 25 supply lead. All hope is not lost though, as imba protoss units and perhaps the unluckiest EMPs ever recorded help me win the game.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?dan58rdqe0kmnpx

Loss VS Libre: Fail reaction. Despite suspecting a factory opening and seeing a late expo, I do my sentry drop. He hellion drops me, killing a ton of workers. From there, I can only watch as I lose the game
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?ru65b96fw5ak4x3

Win VS Lostcause: Showcases an ideal outcome from this build, as my drops do a fair amount of damage. Lostcause goes for a 1 rax gasless FE into 3 rax.
VOD:

Replay: Coming Soon!

Win VS LunarPrime: Immortal defense on Cloud Kingdom. I scout a 2 rax (reactor and tech lab) by losing a stalker and switch to the immortal defense build. I then pressure + transition into a normal PvT macro game.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?i0g5ip266b2fri0

Win VS Hli: Misread. I scout a bunker at the natural but neglect to check the actual position of the CC. As such, I follow through with the sentry drop build. Hli goes a weird hellion run-by build while I sentry drop his main, and I come out ahead on the exchange.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?8sfktcc654mvr5z


Ask me questions via PM, on this thread, or at bnYamonkey.925 and I'll try to get back to you
Candide
Profile Joined November 2010
456 Posts
February 20 2012 07:39 GMT
#2
Cool thread definitely something to try ! go amonkey!
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 10:19:11
February 20 2012 10:14 GMT
#3
1gate fe or nex first and then do this imo. Your build won't be very far ahead even if it kills a lot of scvs because your expo is so late.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
UmbeXCII
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy69 Posts
February 20 2012 14:59 GMT
#4
Build seems really fun to play, can't wait to try it out.
It feels like you expand too late to hold a 1-1-1...have you any replay/VOD of this build vs someone going 1-1-1?
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 15:00:14
February 20 2012 14:59 GMT
#5
buy a monkey cheap? =O
Moderator
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 15:31:39
February 20 2012 15:14 GMT
#6
On February 20 2012 19:14 Arcanefrost wrote:
1gate fe or nex first and then do this imo. Your build won't be very far ahead even if it kills a lot of scvs because your expo is so late.


In my game vs demuslim, I only killed 5 workers with my drop (I usually get 6/7/8) and didn't spend chronos on my probes while doing it. In the end I still had a 7 worker advantage. I guess you need to spend chronos on probes instead of prism speed or colo, that way you should get a worker advantage greater or equal to the one made from a 1 gate FE.


On February 20 2012 23:59 UmbeXCII wrote:
Build seems really fun to play, can't wait to try it out.
It feels like you expand too late to hold a 1-1-1...have you any replay/VOD of this build vs someone going 1-1-1?


Yes I do have a replay...It's just with my main computer which I'll be reunited with in a week >_> I'll try to make a replay for you soon though You should also go for a faster expo + immortals if you scout anything with your stalker. Your expo timing will be similar to a 3 gate expo I believe.


On February 20 2012 23:59 NrGmonk wrote:
buy a monkey cheap? =O


That was a dark part of my past. I no longer defence reaper in position, already seen 2 gas, and still drop off....
Lightsider23
Profile Joined October 2011
Serbia16 Posts
February 20 2012 15:21 GMT
#7
Cool build, i was watching Demuslim's stream when i saw you do that build vs him.
I'm certianly going to try it out!
"More GG More Skill"- WhiteRa
Forbs
Profile Joined January 2011
United States76 Posts
February 20 2012 17:39 GMT
#8
This build owns like a_monkey 8)
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
February 20 2012 21:05 GMT
#9
I support this thread! Even though amonkey is notoriously bad mannered towards me in ladder and NEVER says gg (lol jk ). I love how this build gives you multiple opportunities to be aggressive, with the ability to macro and pull ahead in workers. It requires good multitasking, which means if you practice it will improve your multitasking.
In which situations would you do a 2base all-in versus taking a 3rd?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Kodak
Profile Joined March 2011
United States157 Posts
February 20 2012 21:27 GMT
#10
I agree that it would be better off of a faster expo, but still looks like a nice build. :D
twitch.tv/crwnkodak [ Taeja | Huk | MMA ]
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
February 20 2012 21:37 GMT
#11
On February 21 2012 06:05 TangSC wrote:
I support this thread! Even though amonkey is notoriously bad mannered towards me in ladder and NEVER says gg (lol jk ). I love how this build gives you multiple opportunities to be aggressive, with the ability to macro and pull ahead in workers. It requires good multitasking, which means if you practice it will improve your multitasking.
In which situations would you do a 2base all-in versus taking a 3rd?


If they try to counter after your first sentry drop, they'll have pure rax units, maybe a few medivacs, but most importantly no vikings. You should be able to fend off the attack pretty comfortably with your first colossus. If they've overcommitted, you can usually pressure back. Set up proxy pylons either way, and just get more ahead by pressuring, expoing, and taking map control. Since you should've been cost-effective when holding the counter, you may outright kill him while still having the potential to take a third. Good question!
xSNRx
Profile Joined January 2011
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-20 21:56:05
February 20 2012 21:54 GMT
#12
On February 20 2012 16:17 a_monkey wrote:
Transitioning
+ Show Spoiler +
While harassing with sentries, add 1 colossus with speed while warping in zealots. While harassing with the colossus, you should be able to begin your transition into HT/archon/chargelot/immortal by adding a twilight council and additional gates. Take a fast 3rd/4th gas at your natural. Make observers as needed while beginning constant production of immortals. This transition renders your opponent's defensive vikings useless. If they don't make any vikings, you should be able to harass their army down to a point where you can attack with chargelot/immortal and kill them.



This here is pretty key I think. In the matches I played, terran seems to get spooked by the fast colossus and mad pumps vikings for a while only to realize that you've 360'd into twilight.

Colossus drop also so good at frying marines =P
Ashent
Profile Joined November 2011
Korea (South)109 Posts
February 20 2012 22:54 GMT
#13
Awesome thread man, will definitely practice this build.
ww
snively
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1159 Posts
February 20 2012 23:20 GMT
#14
wow that's awesome. I used to get robo bay for prism speed and nothing else, but it seems much less wasteful to use the bay for a norange collo for drops. that's really cool. I will definitely try this out on the ladder
My religion is Starcraft
-Risk-
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada164 Posts
February 21 2012 01:10 GMT
#15
nice build bromonkey I like u best toss player (equal to forbs!)
Check out my stream at http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/-Risk-
w4rner
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada8 Posts
February 21 2012 16:09 GMT
#16
Looks fun, can't wait to try this out on ladder, I've been looking for more pvt strategies.
I'm sure I'll be back with questions
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 21:59:44
February 21 2012 21:59 GMT
#17
On February 21 2012 00:21 Lightsider23 wrote:
Cool build, i was watching Demuslim's stream when i saw you do that build vs him.
I'm certianly going to try it out!

On February 21 2012 08:20 snively wrote:
wow that's awesome. I used to get robo bay for prism speed and nothing else, but it seems much less wasteful to use the bay for a norange collo for drops. that's really cool. I will definitely try this out on the ladder

On February 22 2012 01:09 w4rner wrote:
Looks fun, can't wait to try this out on ladder, I've been looking for more pvt strategies.
I'm sure I'll be back with questions

Thanks guys! I updated the post with a few more replays; some wins and some losses. Most of the losses could've been avoided by having a better response, but I'd love to see how you guys do with this build. So far I'm the only one I've seen using it....hopefully its not because its bad....
GenoPewPew
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States347 Posts
February 21 2012 22:08 GMT
#18
I'm going to send a replay to my friend!
Caster for GosuGamers.Net and www.binary-gaming.org for my team!
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 15:40:12
February 22 2012 14:55 GMT
#19
On February 20 2012 23:59 UmbeXCII wrote:
Build seems really fun to play, can't wait to try it out.
It feels like you expand too late to hold a 1-1-1...have you any replay/VOD of this build vs someone going 1-1-1?


Updated with 1-1-1 defense. Check out the replay vs Ewic and aiRAbsolute!
quillian
Profile Joined April 2010
United States318 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 18:28:19
February 22 2012 18:11 GMT
#20
As others have stated, expo seems really late.

However, I wonder if you could combine the two drops for maximum damage to ensure you get tons of scv kills.

Instead of 2 drops, 1 sentry, 1 colossus, get 2 prisms and drop sentry AND colossus. Force fielded SCV's dying to aoe beams.... yum. with good micro you could almost guarantee double digit scv kills.

maybe do naniwa's sentry expand into fast colossus/speed prism? This sets you up with the sentries and early expo, and he seems to think it's safe vs most stuff.

edit- just watched the vod vs lostcause. sick micro man. I aspire to be like you =D
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
February 23 2012 07:55 GMT
#21
On February 23 2012 03:11 quillian wrote:
As others have stated, expo seems really late.

However, I wonder if you could combine the two drops for maximum damage to ensure you get tons of scv kills.

Instead of 2 drops, 1 sentry, 1 colossus, get 2 prisms and drop sentry AND colossus. Force fielded SCV's dying to aoe beams.... yum. with good micro you could almost guarantee double digit scv kills.

maybe do naniwa's sentry expand into fast colossus/speed prism? This sets you up with the sentries and early expo, and he seems to think it's safe vs most stuff.

edit- just watched the vod vs lostcause. sick micro man. I aspire to be like you =D


I'll try to figure out if I can expo earlier and still have decent timings for the drops. As for combining the two, I'm not so sure. As it currently is, you only need to spend 200 mins on a single warp prism as opposed to 400 for two, and the sentry drop is needed to even the worker count early. The colossus drop also tends to come right before or during viking production; the last thing I would want is to risk 4 sentries, a colossus, and 2 warp prisms to a couple vikings. That would be putting many eggs in a single basket, and having the basket shot to pieces by viking rockets. The eggs would be your chances of winning the game. Symbolism 'n stuff.

Do you happen to have the thread/build for nani's sentry expand into fast colo/speed prism?

And thanks! You should look at some of the other VODs/replays. My micro/multitasking has gotten noticeably better the more I've used this build. If I could recommend one, it'd definitely be the game against DaSakura :D
quillian
Profile Joined April 2010
United States318 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-23 21:35:26
February 23 2012 21:25 GMT
#22
day9 daily 420 covered Naniwa's sentry expand:


He didn't do speed prism, preferring a poke at the front to kill bunkers. I think your way could be a perfectly viable transition, though.

As far as combining drops, it does delay the colossus a bit to get 2 prisms. I like have 2 anyway, though, as it lets you do warp in harass on multiple fronts in the mid-late game.

I don't think you should be too afraid of 2-3 vikings vs speed prisms. You are so fast, unless he has a critical mass and catches you in a net, he shouldn't kill you.

I tried the sentry/colossus drop vs a meh diamond opponent, and I have to say it was certainly fun. the way the scv AI works when force fielded makes them line up perfectly for colossus shots. ~16 scvs killed in a few seconds. it's all over so fast he doesn't really have time to react before you are loaded up and out of there.

that said, neither I or my opponent are particularly good, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

either way, I think FE into speed prism drop play is probably the most fun modern pvt I've experienced.
UmbeXCII
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy69 Posts
February 23 2012 23:04 GMT
#23
I don't like too much naniwa's build for some reasons:
1)you need to have really really good forcefields
2)it sucks versus reaper expand
3)if the terran sees no zealot and builds a engineering bay on your natural it's gonna take forever to kill it with just sentris.
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
February 24 2012 15:57 GMT
#24
I think that a fast warp prism with Nani's build will leave you far too vulnerable to attacks. You'd be taking 4/6 sentries far away from your base with only 1 (2 or 3 possibly) gate + robo production to defend. Naniwa's build is very good, but I don't think it can be combined with mine. You'd simply be too stretched for resources for the drop to come at a useful time while still being safe.

On February 24 2012 06:25 quillian wrote:As far as combining drops, it does delay the colossus a bit to get 2 prisms. I like have 2 anyway, though, as it lets you do warp in harass on multiple fronts in the mid-late game.

I don't think you should be too afraid of 2-3 vikings vs speed prisms. You are so fast, unless he has a critical mass and catches you in a net, he shouldn't kill you.


The issue is that it would be incredibly difficult to do damage during/after your first drop. With the additional time taken to get a warp prism, colossus, and warp prism, they may have already scouted your tech by attacking (as you would have to use your colossus to defend) or scanning. If they see a colossus, or probably even robo bay, they will start viking production. Any kind of warp prism drop requires no vikings whatsoever to be around. Even though you can outrun them, you don't want to abandon the units that you drop, nor can you leave mid-warp in and still do damage. If you want to preserve your warp prism in this scenario, you'll be forced to do one of those two things. In the late game, you can simply afford to build a second warp prism. It doesn't need to be integrated in your early game build, where you need every resource that you can acquire.
Powerfoe
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada167 Posts
February 25 2012 23:03 GMT
#25
Interesting build amonkey, but how would you deal with a powerful marine SCV all-in? It would hit before you get any sentries and you'll be sad.
NOW YOU SEE?
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
February 26 2012 01:44 GMT
#26
On February 26 2012 08:03 Powerfoe wrote:
Interesting build amonkey, but how would you deal with a powerful marine SCV all-in? It would hit before you get any sentries and you'll be sad.


Hopefully I can find a recent replay, but you would just chrono out stalkers. You've already got the 2 gates and a stalker already making. Pull probes off of your gas, make reinforcing pylons or gates if you have the money and defend as you would with any other build vs 2 rax SCV.
UmbeXCII
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy69 Posts
February 27 2012 10:40 GMT
#27
This build is so hard to do but it's really fun and I'll keep using it until I start winning
Any suggestion on how to micro the first drop with the sentries?
The sentries come out of the prism really slowly and usually my opponent manages to move most of his scvs away.
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 04:39:22
February 28 2012 04:36 GMT
#28
On February 27 2012 19:40 UmbeXCII wrote:
This build is so hard to do but it's really fun and I'll keep using it until I start winning
Any suggestion on how to micro the first drop with the sentries?
The sentries come out of the prism really slowly and usually my opponent manages to move most of his scvs away.


Glad to hear you're having fun with it :D
With the first sentry drop, you'll definitely have some games where your opponent moves their SCVs away. In every other game, ensure that your warp prism has the best ratio of time visible by your opponent to time required to move the warp prism in position. Press D then click on the warp prism as soon as you'd be able to FF the end of the mineral line with a dropped sentry. I normally press D on the prism then immediately box my first sentry to make force fields, and keep boxing and FFing as the sentries come out. No need to hold shift or anything when boxing. If they aren't running their SCVs and are sending units to the back of their mineral line, force field the attacking units out while still leaving your sentries to kill SCVs. If they move their SCVs away, you can usually wait a little while until they send some MM + their SCVs back to their minerals, after which you can then FF and pick off a few marines, then kill some SCVs. Marauders are harder to pick off, as they outrange sentries and are generally a lot tougher than marines. Having a marauder in range of the sentries is one of the hardest things to deal with. It usually takes 5 FFs to get a good number of SCVs trapped, with an additional 2 to block off the army if your opponent sends one.

If there are holes in the back of the mineral line, I usually place my sentries to fill the gap. That way, SCVs can't get out no matter what. They can also sometimes lift their CC in order to get their SCVs out, so I usually pre-emptively FF on top of the CC to complete the FF wall. It definitely takes some practice to do this build, but you'll quickly figure out the best spots to FF with your sentry drop.

Sorry for the long/incoherent response, it's been a long day >_>
RaiD.RaynoR
Profile Joined February 2012
United States294 Posts
February 28 2012 04:55 GMT
#29
Berry berry interesting!
Redemption is the consequence of forgiveness
UmbeXCII
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy69 Posts
February 28 2012 21:50 GMT
#30
On February 28 2012 13:36 a_monkey wrote:
Glad to hear you're having fun with it :D
With the first sentry drop, you'll definitely have some games where your opponent moves their SCVs away. In every other game, ensure that your warp prism has the best ratio of time visible by your opponent to time required to move the warp prism in position. Press D then click on the warp prism as soon as you'd be able to FF the end of the mineral line with a dropped sentry. I normally press D on the prism then immediately box my first sentry to make force fields, and keep boxing and FFing as the sentries come out. No need to hold shift or anything when boxing. If they aren't running their SCVs and are sending units to the back of their mineral line, force field the attacking units out while still leaving your sentries to kill SCVs. If they move their SCVs away, you can usually wait a little while until they send some MM + their SCVs back to their minerals, after which you can then FF and pick off a few marines, then kill some SCVs. Marauders are harder to pick off, as they outrange sentries and are generally a lot tougher than marines. Having a marauder in range of the sentries is one of the hardest things to deal with. It usually takes 5 FFs to get a good number of SCVs trapped, with an additional 2 to block off the army if your opponent sends one.

If there are holes in the back of the mineral line, I usually place my sentries to fill the gap. That way, SCVs can't get out no matter what. They can also sometimes lift their CC in order to get their SCVs out, so I usually pre-emptively FF on top of the CC to complete the FF wall. It definitely takes some practice to do this build, but you'll quickly figure out the best spots to FF with your sentry drop.

Sorry for the long/incoherent response, it's been a long day >_>


That was a good response, thank you very much.
I'm still working on how to transition after the colossus drop...i don't really find the money to make zealots at all while i'm making two extra gates, two forges, twilight+charge and immos...I guess I'll need to check the replays better

I'd love to see more replay of you doing this build...
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
February 29 2012 02:23 GMT
#31
The forges usually come later, especially if you take a faster third. I think that's the biggest drawback for this build. I'll upload some more when I have the chance, I just have exams right now
a_monkey
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada106 Posts
April 26 2012 19:44 GMT
#32
Took a break from SC2 and now I'm back and doing this build again I've updated the initial post with some replays from yesterday's ladder session vs danP, Moosy, FXOStrelok, and Christhorpher. Hopefully you guys are still trying this build too!
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