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I've been struggling vs toss alot lately (yeah, I'm that bad). And the problem is that I really don't know what I did wrong, except in this game it may have been trying to go ultralisks.
Short summary would be: I go 15hatch and scout him going nexus first on Korhal Compund, in repsonse I throw down another hatch in my main before pool, and then after pool I take a fast third. I see that he tries to take a (relatively) fast third as well. I go kill it, losing my army in the process, no biggie right? I had 72 drones and remaxed instantly on infestor/ling/roach. Then he comes in to kill my fourth, and we trade (in his favor). And here I think I should have remaxed on ultras, as I had 3/3 for melee on the way and ultra den done. But sadly I don't, I rebuild some army with roaches and lose.
So I guess the real question would be; how the f*ck do I deal with a toss that takes a fast third and what do I do when he attacks me later before I can get my hive units out?
If this should be in strat forum I apologize, but just because I'm not really sure if this kind of situation is there or not. I will just post as blog for now. Constructive feedback would be amazing, as I lose a lot vs toss.
glhf on the ladder or whatever it is you're doing 
http://drop.sc/115919
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Osaka27179 Posts
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@ 8 minutes he has 2 sentries and a cannon, that should have been game over with 6 roaches and some lings.
You basically let him get to toss comfort zone(3base) uncontested and he punished you for it. Had you done a poke attack anytime before 8:20 you would have won imo.
I'm a plat toss so take it with a grain of salt.
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Hey achristes, I'm only a Diamond toss but I noticed you haven't been getting much feedback so I'll try to help. I watched the replay and you have really good macro so I don't think that's a problem.
When protoss chooses robo as his tech, he will have a very strong, but slow, army against ground forces. Zealots, stalkers, immortals will take out pretty much everything except hydras (but he can just start getting colossus and kill that too) in a head-on fight. However, he won't be able to easily defend his bases, even more so if he takes a quicker third. You need to attack where the bulk of his army is not. You can achieve this with mutas, drops, dual-pronged attacks, run-bys, or just attacking from a different angle (attacking his third early from the lower right side in that map would have been effective). It forces his army to move around to defend, and a robo army - whether he gets immortals or colossus, is very very slow. He will take a lot of damage unless he is a god at splitting his army or invested a lot into cannons.
Also, when a protoss sees a zerg build a quick macro hatch in his main he's going to assume that the zerg is going to try to break him. He's going to make a ton of defense at his front, so take this into consideration when getting that fast macro hatch Maybe it'd be a better investment to tech up or expand sooner, I'm not sure since I don't play Zerg but I haven't seen a fast macro hatch in response to my FFE in PvZ before.
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Its true that you need to punish early toss 3rd but , you dont do it if you are losing the game for it, you suicide shitload of roaches, all your army to snipe a nexi, only a nexi you did not kill any probes , any tech , any army, so toss guy get free maxed in exchange for a nexi and roll over you.
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Hatch first is always risky business I do not recommend it on any 2 player map. I agree RRDjhonn that your sacrificing your whole army for a nexus is not worth it, 33 roaches is not even worth the cost and mining lost from a nexus(about 3600 minerals and 850 gas). You should have a ling at his front if you not attentive enough and lose it, have it at his third.
Why were you idle with all your lings and roaches tht you built to defend that immortal sentry push that never came. I don't get it, you just made a rather big army that could defeat his if properly manage and you went idle for like 2-3 minutes with it? I don't know what to make of that. That group could had been drones if you makes units for defense and he doesn't commit you better use them offensively. Those lings could had been drones!
Work on your army control and try to pick better engangements your army is faster than his so you should always get the better end of the engagements (disregarding FF). You had 2 terrible engagements one at his front (which should had been an attack at his third imo), in that attack your lings went apeshit, correct that micro.
And the suicide mission on his third be aware of forcefield and micro away your roaches for every attack so you don't get caught between forcefield like that, ignore cannons and pylons that was a pure snipe mission to get you back into the game. You should lose about 1-5 roaches there no excuse to lose 33 roaches.
These 2 engagements lost you the game, imo.
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On February 21 2012 11:38 jdynamic wrote:Hey achristes, I'm only a Diamond toss but I noticed you haven't been getting much feedback so I'll try to help. I watched the replay and you have really good macro so I don't think that's a problem. When protoss chooses robo as his tech, he will have a very strong, but slow, army against ground forces. Zealots, stalkers, immortals will take out pretty much everything except hydras (but he can just start getting colossus and kill that too) in a head-on fight. However, he won't be able to easily defend his bases, even more so if he takes a quicker third. You need to attack where the bulk of his army is not. You can achieve this with mutas, drops, dual-pronged attacks, run-bys, or just attacking from a different angle (attacking his third early from the lower right side in that map would have been effective). It forces his army to move around to defend, and a robo army - whether he gets immortals or colossus, is very very slow. He will take a lot of damage unless he is a god at splitting his army or invested a lot into cannons. Also, when a protoss sees a zerg build a quick macro hatch in his main he's going to assume that the zerg is going to try to break him. He's going to make a ton of defense at his front, so take this into consideration when getting that fast macro hatch Maybe it'd be a better investment to tech up or expand sooner, I'm not sure since I don't play Zerg but I haven't seen a fast macro hatch in response to my FFE in PvZ before.
Helped a lot thank you
The early third hatch in my main is to help produce a shitload of drones. CatZ, when he sees a FFE will 15hatch (and if he gets cannoned he does something crazy), and then makes another hatch in his main, then pool and then a third base. If you want to know more about that you would have to watch him a litle bit yourself, he does some crazy shit, and teaches you to scout yout main after you FFE (or get proxy hatched and lose!).
And if the third hatch in my base makes him think I'm going allin, that would be beneficial to me if he makes a ton of cannons/units and I just take a third. Even if you drop the macro hatch you can still take a fast third, AND have a shitton of larvae to make lings/roaches with if that is necessary.
On February 21 2012 18:52 RRDjhonn wrote:
Its true that you need to punish early toss 3rd but , you dont do it if you are losing the game for it, you suicide shitload of roaches, all your army to snipe a nexi, only a nexi you did not kill any probes , any tech , any army, so toss guy get free maxed in exchange for a nexi and roll over you.
True, stupid move by me.
On February 21 2012 23:00 Elldar wrote:
Hatch first is always risky business I do not recommend it on any 2 player map. I agree RRDjhonn that your sacrificing your whole army for a nexus is not worth it, 33 roaches is not even worth the cost and mining lost from a nexus(about 3600 minerals and 850 gas). You should have a ling at his front if you not attentive enough and lose it, have it at his third.
Why were you idle with all your lings and roaches tht you built to defend that immortal sentry push that never came. I don't get it, you just made a rather big army that could defeat his if properly manage and you went idle for like 2-3 minutes with it? I don't know what to make of that. That group could had been drones if you makes units for defense and he doesn't commit you better use them offensively. Those lings could had been drones!
Work on your army control and try to pick better engangements your army is faster than his so you should always get the better end of the engagements (disregarding FF). You had 2 terrible engagements one at his front (which should had been an attack at his third imo), in that attack your lings went apeshit, correct that micro.
And the suicide mission on his third be aware of forcefield and micro away your roaches for every attack so you don't get caught between forcefield like that, ignore cannons and pylons that was a pure snipe mission to get you back into the game. You should lose about 1-5 roaches there no excuse to lose 33 roaches.
These 2 engagements lost you the game, imo.
I will 15hatch, and if I get cannoned I proxy hatch, if I fail, I lose
Yeah, I know saccing my entire army was a bit STUPID, but I really, really, really hate 3base toss. 3base toss can have both templar, archons, collosus, immortals and a shitload of gateway units. I think I will try to play a little bit with mutas in the future (yes, I am a latecomer to that party), or maybe banerain...
I need to work more on decision making though, espacially when being aggressive before I'm fully saturated on 3-4base.
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On February 20 2012 13:07 achristes wrote:I've been struggling vs toss alot lately (yeah, I'm that bad). And the problem is that I really don't know what I did wrong, except in this game it may have been trying to go ultralisks. Short summary would be: I go 15hatch and scout him going nexus first on Korhal Compund, in repsonse I throw down another hatch in my main before pool, and then after pool I take a fast third. I see that he tries to take a (relatively) fast third as well. I go kill it, losing my army in the process, no biggie right? I had 72 drones and remaxed instantly on infestor/ling/roach. Then he comes in to kill my fourth, and we trade (in his favor). And here I think I should have remaxed on ultras, as I had 3/3 for melee on the way and ultra den done. But sadly I don't, I rebuild some army with roaches and lose. So I guess the real question would be; how the f*ck do I deal with a toss that takes a fast third and what do I do when he attacks me later before I can get my hive units out? If this should be in strat forum I apologize, but just because I'm not really sure if this kind of situation is there or not. I will just post as blog for now. Constructive feedback would be amazing, as I lose a lot vs toss. glhf on the ladder or whatever it is you're doing http://drop.sc/115919
Diamond Toss and Zerg here. Bread and butter while playing ZvP is this.
If he FFE:
Take a fast 3rd base. Roach warren + evo chamber at around 7 mins.
Make a ton of roaches at the 8min mark (especially if your scouting was denyed)
Keep massing and if he doesn't attack, go and attack him, since he will be getting his third and you will have so many units.
Hope this helps, once again, very basic but effective!
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This is something I have been playing around with recently with some good success, especially on 2 player maps
Send scouting drone at 13
14 Pool
Replace drone so your back at 14
Your drone will get to his base on a 2 player map around the 150mineral mark, just poke around for a bit staying around the NAT, once you have 300 drop a hatch at his NAT(keep this hatch hotkeyed becuase your going to cancel it at the last second and build a EVO chamber on the creep it creates to delay the NAT even more. The Evo chamber isn't required but it delays the toss NAT a little longer)
Now drone to 16
17 is 1 set of lings to prevent any shannagins at your own nat(Pylon block ect)
Extractor trick Queen(So you will ber 19/18 supply now)
OL
Then go straight into non stop drone production and take your 3rd hatch at 5min mark. Then transition into the typical 3 hatch build
This whole process slows down your 3rd hatch by about 30 seconds but it makes it so your nat is down before the protoss and allows you to keep the econ at the same level from the get go as the toss, instead of having to catch up once your 3rd starts getting saturated, just something you can play around with.
If you want to be aggressive another option instead of the 3rd hatch at 5min is to take the 300 resources you got back from the nat cancel at the toss's NAT and just drone up off 2 base nicely to get full saturation while working up to roach. The excess money can you a decent roach army before the 7min30-8min mark where toss acutally can get some decent defence up. What you can do now is take your 5-7 roach and just knock down buildings at the wall, like the forge / cyber and either go in if you can do damage or retreat while droning behind it. Which ever you like doing better. Just remeber the protoss in most cases can't do almost anything other then the odd zelot till 7min30seconds to 8min. In most cases its acutally closer to 9min+ since they need at least 2 warp in's before a decent army size is possible
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On February 22 2012 03:03 achristes wrote:I will 15hatch, and if I get cannoned I proxy hatch, if I fail, I lose
Can't say I agree with this train of thought, but whatever floats your boat.
Keeping tabs on the possible third for protoss is very important, day9 actually did a great daily yesterday where a 12-13 minute push kills a quick third if your opponent isnt playing safe enough, check it out!
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p1-liquidret-zvp-5969774
On February 22 2012 04:46 rustypipe wrote:
This is something I have been playing around with recently with some good success, especially on 2 player maps
Send scouting drone at 13
14 Pool
Replace drone so your back at 14
Your drone will get to his base on a 2 player map around the 150mineral mark, just poke around for a bit staying around the NAT, once you have 300 drop a hatch at his NAT
Now drone to 16
17 is 1 set of lings to prevent any shannagins at your own nat(Pylon block ect)
Extractor trick Queen(So you will ber 19/18 supply now)
OL
Then go straight into non stop drone production and take your 3rd hatch at 5min mark. Then transition into the typical 3 hatch build
This whole process slows down your 3rd hatch by about 30 seconds but it makes it so your nat is down before the protoss and allows you to keep the econ at the same level from the get go as the toss, instead of having to catch up once your 3rd starts getting saturated, just something you can play around with.
I'm confused, you never mention what you do with the hatch building at his nat. Do you let it finish or do you cancel at 99%?
Either way this might be an effective way to throw off a less experienced opponent but I can't imagine this being good advice to give any player who's having trouble in the matchup.
I could teach him an easy roach/ling all in and it would make him win but he won't improve in the matchup at all.
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On February 22 2012 04:46 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 03:03 achristes wrote:I will 15hatch, and if I get cannoned I proxy hatch, if I fail, I lose Can't say I agree with this train of thought, but whatever floats your boat. Keeping tabs on the possible third for protoss is very important, day9 actually did a great daily yesterday where a 12-13 minute push kills a quick third if your opponent isnt playing safe enough, check it out! http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p1-liquidret-zvp-5969774Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:46 rustypipe wrote:
This is something I have been playing around with recently with some good success, especially on 2 player maps
Send scouting drone at 13
14 Pool
Replace drone so your back at 14
Your drone will get to his base on a 2 player map around the 150mineral mark, just poke around for a bit staying around the NAT, once you have 300 drop a hatch at his NAT
Now drone to 16
17 is 1 set of lings to prevent any shannagins at your own nat(Pylon block ect)
Extractor trick Queen(So you will ber 19/18 supply now)
OL
Then go straight into non stop drone production and take your 3rd hatch at 5min mark. Then transition into the typical 3 hatch build
This whole process slows down your 3rd hatch by about 30 seconds but it makes it so your nat is down before the protoss and allows you to keep the econ at the same level from the get go as the toss, instead of having to catch up once your 3rd starts getting saturated, just something you can play around with.
I'm confused, you never mention what you do with the hatch building at his nat. Do you let it finish or do you cancel at 99%? Either way this might be an effective way to throw off a less experienced opponent but I can't imagine this being good advice to give any player who's having trouble in the matchup. I could teach him an easy roach/ling all in and it would make him win but he won't improve in the matchup at all.
Sorry i recently just edited it and added / fixed that. You cancel it at the last second to get the money back and can either leave it at that or plop down an evo chamber on the quickly receeding creep from it, then let the evo chamber just die
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On February 22 2012 04:51 rustypipe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:46 Clarity_nl wrote:On February 22 2012 03:03 achristes wrote:I will 15hatch, and if I get cannoned I proxy hatch, if I fail, I lose Can't say I agree with this train of thought, but whatever floats your boat. Keeping tabs on the possible third for protoss is very important, day9 actually did a great daily yesterday where a 12-13 minute push kills a quick third if your opponent isnt playing safe enough, check it out! http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p1-liquidret-zvp-5969774On February 22 2012 04:46 rustypipe wrote:
This is something I have been playing around with recently with some good success, especially on 2 player maps
Send scouting drone at 13
14 Pool
Replace drone so your back at 14
Your drone will get to his base on a 2 player map around the 150mineral mark, just poke around for a bit staying around the NAT, once you have 300 drop a hatch at his NAT
Now drone to 16
17 is 1 set of lings to prevent any shannagins at your own nat(Pylon block ect)
Extractor trick Queen(So you will ber 19/18 supply now)
OL
Then go straight into non stop drone production and take your 3rd hatch at 5min mark. Then transition into the typical 3 hatch build
This whole process slows down your 3rd hatch by about 30 seconds but it makes it so your nat is down before the protoss and allows you to keep the econ at the same level from the get go as the toss, instead of having to catch up once your 3rd starts getting saturated, just something you can play around with.
I'm confused, you never mention what you do with the hatch building at his nat. Do you let it finish or do you cancel at 99%? Either way this might be an effective way to throw off a less experienced opponent but I can't imagine this being good advice to give any player who's having trouble in the matchup. I could teach him an easy roach/ling all in and it would make him win but he won't improve in the matchup at all. Sorry i recently just edited it and added / fixed that. You cancel it at the last second to get the money back and can either leave it at that or plop down an evo chamber on the quickly receeding creep from it, then let the evo chamber just die
Seems like an interesting idea, but should probably be discussed in its own thread rather than be given out as advice in someone else's.
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On February 22 2012 04:55 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:51 rustypipe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:46 Clarity_nl wrote:On February 22 2012 03:03 achristes wrote:I will 15hatch, and if I get cannoned I proxy hatch, if I fail, I lose Can't say I agree with this train of thought, but whatever floats your boat. Keeping tabs on the possible third for protoss is very important, day9 actually did a great daily yesterday where a 12-13 minute push kills a quick third if your opponent isnt playing safe enough, check it out! http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-422-p1-liquidret-zvp-5969774On February 22 2012 04:46 rustypipe wrote:
This is something I have been playing around with recently with some good success, especially on 2 player maps
Send scouting drone at 13
14 Pool
Replace drone so your back at 14
Your drone will get to his base on a 2 player map around the 150mineral mark, just poke around for a bit staying around the NAT, once you have 300 drop a hatch at his NAT
Now drone to 16
17 is 1 set of lings to prevent any shannagins at your own nat(Pylon block ect)
Extractor trick Queen(So you will ber 19/18 supply now)
OL
Then go straight into non stop drone production and take your 3rd hatch at 5min mark. Then transition into the typical 3 hatch build
This whole process slows down your 3rd hatch by about 30 seconds but it makes it so your nat is down before the protoss and allows you to keep the econ at the same level from the get go as the toss, instead of having to catch up once your 3rd starts getting saturated, just something you can play around with.
I'm confused, you never mention what you do with the hatch building at his nat. Do you let it finish or do you cancel at 99%? Either way this might be an effective way to throw off a less experienced opponent but I can't imagine this being good advice to give any player who's having trouble in the matchup. I could teach him an easy roach/ling all in and it would make him win but he won't improve in the matchup at all. Sorry i recently just edited it and added / fixed that. You cancel it at the last second to get the money back and can either leave it at that or plop down an evo chamber on the quickly receeding creep from it, then let the evo chamber just die Seems like an interesting idea, but should probably be discussed in its own thread rather than be given out as advice in someone else's.
This has been around for a long time I think, I do it sometimes, but it's so embarrasing to fail so I stopped^^
On February 22 2012 04:46 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 03:03 achristes wrote:I will 15hatch, and if I get cannoned I proxy hatch, if I fail, I lose Can't say I agree with this train of thought, but whatever floats your boat.
It is a little bit more to it than that, but if I start a hatch in his main, he has to do something with it (pull probes, cannons etc), and if he does NOT see it he loses. If it get's spotted however, it can still do some dmg (indirect-forcing probes off minerals, placing cannons in obscure locations. Direct-Get some roaches out and kill probes/buildings), and while this is going on I kill whatever was in my nat and expand, twice sometimes, when I feel I've delayed him long enough. And you'd be surprised how many tosses that cannonrushes and don't scout their main.
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