DoctorFunk here with another more brief and brutal TvZ all-in: The Marauder/Hellion all-in. This is nothing new, nothing revolutionary, and been around literally forever. I decided to make a guide on it for two reasons: Reason One : It's an effective all-in, and I didn't see any guides on it here. Reason Two : If you've been on those internets today, you may have noticed that late-game TvZ is getting a significant nerf. To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
Also, it's generally viable at all levels.
Ouch I have another guide that involves battlecruisershere if interested.
To the zerg player, you will be doing a standard reactor hellion expand. The typical response is to get a spine or two up, an extra queen in the natural, and drone pretty hard. Hopefully you've been denying scouting and they do not know that you haven't expanded and are making constant marauders and hellions. Ideally, they should not know until you're at their natural with rockets, flamethrowers and whatever those drill things the scvs have. You should have the tools in your arsenal to deal with any composition the zerg has at this point. Good micro is greatly rewarded with this build. If you want an easy to execute, but micro intensive all-in, this should fit you.
10 depot 12 rax 13 ref 16 marine/oc 16 barracks 16/17 supply depot 17 scv 18 marine 19 scv 19 factory 19 reactor on rax pull one scv out of gas 19/20 tech lab(on 16 rax) 20 scv 20 supply 22 marauder 23,24 scv 26 marauder 28- first two hellions 30 - supply depot, tech lab on rax 31 scv 33- two hellions ---pull another scv out of gas 37-marauder 39-marauder 40 - last scv 42, two hellions and SUPPLY DROP 46 - two marauders/ supply depot From here out, just constant marauder/hellion production rallied to your units.
When your first hellions are out, play it like a standard reactored hellion expand. First check your natural for lings, tag the relevant Xel'Naga tower, and proceed to the natural. With your second pair of hellions, check some likely spots for the opposing player to hide a zergling, then proceed to the natural. Four hellions at the natural, one at the Xel'Naga watch tower, one racing around aimlessly(i.e.denying scouting) and the rest rallied to the center of your base. Again, deny deny deny scouting. If your hellions see an overlord out on the map, consider sending one of your marines to bully it away. Do not show more than four hellions unless you have to.
"It's go time" Hellions on one hotkey, marauders on the other.
Push out of your base around 7:10 with about 8 hellions, 6-7 marauders, two marines, and 12 scvs. Start concussive shells shortly before you move out (preferably by ~6:40). It helps a little, but is not really anything too significant, I often don't use it. Rally your two barracks and factory to their natural or your marauders. Put your scvs on autorepair, have them alternating between attacking, sitting in front repairing each other, and repairing your hellions. If you want to, shift follow them on your hellions with autorepair enabled. You want to take down the spines with your marauders.
Basically your micro is
a) have scvs on autorepair b) a move c) pull back your hellions behind your marauders when they engage, kite with marauders OR just stand there and be beefy. d) After you kill all of the UNITS in the natural, move straight to the main. I don't mind leaving that hatchery alive. as long as the queen down there is dead, they can only produce a few lings out of it anyways. Again, you're on the clock, so get to roasting. c) if they decide to attack you on their ramp with mass speedlings, you can collect an easy win. again, pull your hellions behind your marauders OR you can kind of have the hellions and scvs tank with autorepair if they are clumped together well.
Be sure to not attack lings with just SCVS while your hellions are roasting drones and marauders are aimlessly shooting things.
Target Priority:
First take down the spines, unless speedlings run past the spine. In that case, roast them. Then move onto queens. You don't want them to get off another inject on their natural. However, if speedlings are threatening a surround, don't blindly charge at the queen, exposing your hellions. Also, drone roasting is very good. Drones will not scratch you, unless you somehow let them surround you with lings, so enjoy the barbecue.
Remember, you REALLY do not want to get your hellions surrounded by speedlings without SCV's and Marauders clumped with them. Speedlings are really good against hellions if they have a proper surround.
If they are going for a roach/ling all in a la tang, they will have an easier time defending. If you catch the roaches out on the map, surround them with your scvs and kite forward with your marauders, focus firing them. Swing the hellions around to maximize splash on the roaches. Pull them away if speedlings are going to surround them.
Mass ling/spine: This is more difficult in my opinion. You have to push the spines to take them down because you're on the clock, but you don't want your army to be in an unfavorable position for a surround. Follow the micro tips listed before and you can be okay, as long is there isnt an insane amount of speedlings.
Banelings: Try to kite them with hellions. If you have to take hits, throw a couple marauders at them, do NOT be clumped up.
Super fast muta is not a viable counter, the game will be over in one way or another before then.
On February 11 2012 06:02 blackberry_ wrote: About how many scvs do you leave behind in base to continue constant rauder/hellion production?
good question. I'm sure that my execution is not exactly optimal, but I typically just box about half of my scvs and bring them with my push. I could run a couple of tests vs AI and figure out an optimal number and put it in the guide.
Short answer: a little less than half, but this may not be optimal.
I like that you are honest in your guide, rather than saying "Unleash the aggression in TvZ!" without calling it an all-in (a la Tang). I did want to see a build order for this all-in, as I would like to mix it in sometimes on ladder to keep things interesting.
Awesome! I tried to make up a BO for this the other day on the ladder and it didn't work, because I'm bad. ^^ Thanks for the help, I'll try this and let you know. :D
Reason Two : If you've been on those internets today, you may have noticed that late-game TvZ is getting a significant nerf. To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
The OP states that roach/ling is good for defending it. Even just pure roach can be strong, as you can produce a ton of roaches off of 2 base that can just overwhelm the relatively small marauder numbers.
Best defense is about 2 spines, 4 queens with 2 transfuses and about 14 lings, with lings in production, the queens are the really keystone because marauders and hellions don't do bonus damage vs them. Queens are also handy vs reapers, hellion all ins and banshees. No need to thank me.
On February 11 2012 07:43 Wortie wrote: Best defense is about 2 spines, 4 queens with 2 transfuses and about 14 lings, with lings in production, the queens are the really keystone because marauders and hellions don't do bonus damage vs them. Queens are also handy vs reapers, hellion all ins and banshees. No need to thank me.
Like I say about every single T all in. It can be stopped by queens, spines, and lings.
Also kind of helps to have creep spread, but with hellions on the map you're going to be fighting from one angle. No effective flanking possible. Blind banes on creep would do wonders.
On February 11 2012 10:05 DoctorFunk wrote: Yes queens are a great defensive unit, particularly against Terran. Spanishiwa style would fare well against this, although I'm not sure when said style gets ling speed.
From below --
not even spanishwa style. That's fallen out, IMO, as I see most zergs get gas by at latest 30. But more so the normal timing 15hatch 14/16 pool with an early macro hatch and an 3-4 queens for creep spread. Negates hellion openings, or blocks the damage, so you can spread creep effectively, and move spines up to get more area to flank the mara/hellion army.
I used to do mara/hellion timings, that's what always beat me.
Yes queens are a great defensive unit, particularly against Terran. Spanishiwa style would fare well against this, although I'm not sure when said style gets ling speed.
Platinum Zerg here. Lately if I scout a reactor hellion opening, I've just been immediately switching into Tang's Roach/Ling all-in, since every other Terran seems to love this opening. Not that I blame them since late game TvZ is pretty sad right now.
Blizzard really needs to give some sort of buff to Terran late game since Infestor/Broodlord is so ridiculous
Great all-in. I had this in my arsenal for a long time but you refined it to be a little more effective. Considering how impossible tvz late game will be and how so few all-ins I actually know. i thought it might be a good idea to refine my all ins and learn some new ones. Thanks
except, I build the tech lab on the rax first instead of making it look like a reactor hellion opening.
I build my first rax with a tech lab and start making marauders asap. I build my second rax and factory at same time. Once they finish, I get addons on them asap. I send my hellions out to make it look like a really delayed hellion opening and try to deny control of xel naga.
my all in though is at their front door at 830 with stim with 12-14 marauders and 12-14 hellions.
here's what I do as zerg vs any hellion push. 4 roaches, send two to attack move all the way to the enemies base. you cannot deny my scout roaches. Now I know you didnt expand and will mass spines. When the attack comes get a surround with roach lings and focus spines to kill the marauders (NOT THE HELLIONS!). the marauders will die asap due to the +armored damage of spines, and leave the hellions to fend for themselves vs roach ling spine.
Nice Guide! This sort of build has killed me more than a few times on ladder (
In my experience this build doesn't work as well on maps with closed off naturals like Shattered Temples or Shakuras Plateau. It's fairly easy to trap and surround the hellions with lings in some pocket or corner.
On February 11 2012 14:44 Spieltor wrote: here's what I do as zerg vs any hellion push. 4 roaches, send two to attack move all the way to the enemies base. you cannot deny my scout roaches. Now I know you didnt expand and will mass spines. When the attack comes get a surround with roach lings and focus spines to kill the marauders (NOT THE HELLIONS!). the marauders will die asap due to the +armored damage of spines, and leave the hellions to fend for themselves vs roach ling spine.
sounds effective, except that two early scouting roaches won't know whether you expanded a lot. A lot of hellion openers leave the cc in base for a bit due to roach/ling. if you mass spines against a standard reactor hellion expand, or marine hellion elevator, you will end up behind. Otherwise, sounds good---roach openings are pretty solid as long as its not all in and throwing them away.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: The Build Order + Show Spoiler +
10 depot 12 rax 13 ref 16 marine/oc 16 barracks 16/17 supply depot 17 scv 18 marine 19 scv 19 factory 19 reactor on rax pull one scv out of gas 19/20 tech lab(on 16 rax) 20 scv 20 supply 22 marauder 23,24 scv 26 marauder 28- first two hellions 30 - supply depot, tech lab on rax 31 scv 33- two hellions ---pull another scv out of gas 37-marauder 39-marauder 40 - last scv 42, two hellions and SUPPLY DROP 46 - two marauders/ supply depot From here out, just constant marauder/hellion production rallied to your units.
About 16( before depot, like a 2 rax tvp) if there's no drone scout snooping around your base.. If there is, go ahead and build the depot and the rax just when you can afford it, you will just be down a marauder and up an scv when you push.
That seems like a nice bo I'll see what I can do with it to make it into a non-all-in bo.
How much do those SCVs add in the attack, anyways? Are they just random meatshields which you threw into the mix or do they serve a more planned out purpose?
On February 12 2012 03:40 Antylamon wrote: That seems like a nice bo I'll see what I can do with it to make it into a non-all-in bo.
How much do those SCVs add in the attack, anyways? Are they just random meatshields which you threw into the mix or do they serve a more planned out purpose?
repair I think I use them for that more than a meat shield or attacking unit.
Thanks for the guide. Could you say a little about which maps are good for this build? I can imagine that this build isn't great in Tal' darim, for example.
On February 12 2012 04:16 Vague wrote: Thanks for the guide. Could you say a little about which maps are good for this build? I can imagine that this build isn't great in Tal' darim, for example.
well, to put it plain and simple, the more open the natural is, the less likely you are to attack into >1 spine crawlers. If they scout it on a map like shakuras, you could have a hell of a time breaking through an evo, spine, queen wall only to be greeted by mass lings.
Also, the shorter the rush distance, the better. I used this build VERY often on Xel'naga.
I would think Blue Flame hellions > Reactor hellions. BF hellions 2shot lings, while Red Flame 3 shots. Also it seems when I get BF (playing pure mech) the Zerg always seems to get roaches. Wouldn't forcing roaches be beneficial?
No, you don't want to force them to make anything. I think a few of you are misunderstanding the purpose of this build. This isn't a timing attack. It's an all in. If you all are looking for an effective marauder/hellion opener with the ability to transition, someone wrote a guide HERE. Personally, I don't favor a marauder/hellion opening unless I am going to all in, it's kind of a deviation from my goal. -Blue flame would cut into your production, and make this all in a lot weaker, or a lot later( thus weaker), I don't think it's viable.
Yeh I do this build a LOT in mid-Masters (or equivalent I just copied ForGG's version exactly to refine my own a little bit) and you really just have to deny scouting, if zerg scouts it they can and will hold it. They just need to stop droning and make spines and lings. Don't be shy about it, theres no real transition out of it for the terran player. If you have 4 or 5 spines up when he shows up you basically just win the game.
From Terran side of things, like I said denying scouting is so so so so important put depots around edges so that you can immediately spot ovie and get it with your two marines. I highly recommend against doing any sort of light bunker pressure for that reason alone. You NEED the two marines to kill scouting ovie. Also, IMO unless you kill natural expansion or at least most drones you might as well just gg out. Its REALLY hard to transition out. If they pull back up ramp with a bunch of units don't try and break it, (situational of course, but roaches and/or spines at top of ramp are a bitch) just kill nat go home and swap addons and make marine tank. (I personally don't expand here) When he tries to take expansion again your army should just crush him. It is VERY likely he is waiting on muta though and thats why he pulled into main so you need to get marine production asap. you allready have stim so 3 marines at a time should be fine vs 1 base muta. Your army is guaranteed to rickroll his so just don't die to the muta. Incidentally, on that not contrary to popular belief this build is like a hard counter to super fast two-base muta. Its basically a free win if your timings are crisp. However I think lower level players mess up the build and hit too late and then complain it dies to muta.
Also, I believe OP mentioned a lot of this, but some maps are not good for this. Particularly Shakuras and Antiga since with the ramp, it is basically impossible to break even two spines. Basically, the standard defense against hellions stops you on these maps. On other maps you should be ok against 2 spines and often you can engage 1 at a time. Make sure your marauders shoot spines and queens not lings....
To those people who want to make this "not an all-in" I wouldn't bother. If you want a weaker, pressure, non-allin version just reactor expand first into marauder hellion but I personally don't like that much. The reason this is an all-in. is NOT because you bring scv.... (bothers me so much, how many people freak out about pulling scv for attacks) its all-in because of delayed expansion and tech. You are basically exactly as all-in whether you bring 10 scv or not and it makes it more effective. What people fail to realize is that in a Protoss or Zerg all-in you cut workers like mad, in a Terran all-in you still build the workers but you bring them with you! I really think you are just gimping the build if you don't pull scv.
Big tip for this build! Do not build tech lab barracks to close to the ramp! Even in diamond league I've seen this coming a mile away and was overly prepared to crush it! Deny as much scouting as possible or any zerg will cut drones, drop spines and produce an army!
Damn it, it doesn't work that well against Gold- PLatinum Zergs mostly because all of them just put Spine Crawlers everywhere at the beggining of the game >_> (I guess I'm doing the usual stuff).
I was doing this for a long time (only in high dia, as in i sometimes play low masters on ladder). In the end i decided that having a reactor on the second rax was better.
I had a lot of games where i would kill almost everything, then die to 2 mutas. Also marine DPS is sick. However it seems you dont get stim (i didnt see it, havent watched a replay, but ive obv read the entire OP)
I generally do a stim timing. Do you have an opinion on why yours is better?
On February 12 2012 09:11 Squigly wrote: I was doing this for a long time (only in high dia, as in i sometimes play low masters on ladder). In the end i decided that having a reactor on the second rax was better.
I had a lot of games where i would kill almost everything, then die to 2 mutas. Also marine DPS is sick. However it seems you dont get stim (i didnt see it, havent watched a replay, but ive obv read the entire OP)
I generally do a stim timing. Do you have an opinion on why yours is better?
Or have i just completely mis-understood this.
I work stim in sometimes, It just leaves you like 1-2 hellions/marauders short when you push or delays it a bit.. This build is just what I've been comfortable doing, and generally gets the most units out. Stimming half of your marauders while busting the front spines could be useful. I'll see if I can find a replay of it with stim and include that BO. I haven't compared my build with other marauder hellion builds, it is possible that other variations could be more effective in different situations, and less effective and other.
On February 12 2012 09:11 Squigly wrote: I was doing this for a long time (only in high dia, as in i sometimes play low masters on ladder). In the end i decided that having a reactor on the second rax was better.
I had a lot of games where i would kill almost everything, then die to 2 mutas. Also marine DPS is sick. However it seems you dont get stim (i didnt see it, havent watched a replay, but ive obv read the entire OP)
I generally do a stim timing. Do you have an opinion on why yours is better?
Or have i just completely mis-understood this.
I work stim in sometimes, It just leaves you like 1-2 hellions/marauders short when you push or delays it a bit.. This build is just what I've been comfortable doing, and generally gets the most units out. Stimming half of your marauders while busting the front spines could be useful. I'll see if I can find a replay of it with stim and include that BO. I haven't compared my build with other marauder hellion builds, it is possible that other variations could be more effective in different situations, and less effective and other.
I think you could get away better with reactor hellion, land rax, start mara and stim, and throw down 2 more naked rax instead of a CC.
An go mara/hellion/marine scv all in. Hit right at stim. You'll, of course, be shorter on marauders, but you'd have stim and a 3-1 aggressive stance.
On February 12 2012 09:11 Squigly wrote: I was doing this for a long time (only in high dia, as in i sometimes play low masters on ladder). In the end i decided that having a reactor on the second rax was better.
I had a lot of games where i would kill almost everything, then die to 2 mutas. Also marine DPS is sick. However it seems you dont get stim (i didnt see it, havent watched a replay, but ive obv read the entire OP)
I generally do a stim timing. Do you have an opinion on why yours is better?
Or have i just completely mis-understood this.
I work stim in sometimes, It just leaves you like 1-2 hellions/marauders short when you push or delays it a bit.. This build is just what I've been comfortable doing, and generally gets the most units out. Stimming half of your marauders while busting the front spines could be useful. I'll see if I can find a replay of it with stim and include that BO. I haven't compared my build with other marauder hellion builds, it is possible that other variations could be more effective in different situations, and less effective and other.
I think you could get away better with reactor hellion, land rax, start mara and stim, and throw down 2 more naked rax instead of a CC.
An go mara/hellion/marine scv all in. Hit right at stim. You'll, of course, be shorter on marauders, but you'd have stim and a 3-1 aggressive stance.
this sounds pretty good also, I'll try it out. I've been experimenting with a lot of 1 base all ins against Zerg and they're having a bit more success than I would have expected. I feel so dirty.
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
I understand, but that's the purpose of the guide For defending it, micro is really not that important. It's just scouting it coming and pumping units. Just be diligent with your scouting, it shouldn't be too hard to get some information from overlords or stray lings. When you scout a lot of hellions and more than one marauder(one marauder is standard for some), stop droning and pump some units, throw up an extra couple of spines, and have four queens. Queens, spines, and speedlings should defend this fine with minimal micro. If you can transfuse your spines, great. Just try not to engage in a choke, and try to catch the hellions out of position. If the battle isn't going great, don't hesitate to throw down a spine in your main too, I've won some games because we traded equally, but I still was able to produce enough hellions to run around and roast the remaining drones because there was only a queen defending.
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
From my perspective when they go for a 1 base Marauder/Hellion the most important factor is scouting it of course, once I know what is coming I can just sit on 2 bases and pump out a handfull of Roaches and a ton of Zerglings, Spine Crawlers are good but may be optional. The idea is to use Roaches to try and pick off Hellions and tank damage and then flooding the enemy with Zerglings when you see a good opportunity. The times when I am able to scout this all-in I typically haven't had any problem stopping it with just Roach/Ling, just balance your army to beat what the enemy has, more Marauders means more Lings, more Hellions means more Roaches.
i prefer to get the 2nd barracks after the factory and then once the factory is on the reactor use the rax to get a tech lab, and then start stim and marauder production. Normally push with around 6-8 marauders and 8-10 hellions with stim and scvs
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
From my perspective when they go for a 1 base Marauder/Hellion the most important factor is scouting it of course, once I know what is coming I can just sit on 2 bases and pump out a handfull of Roaches and a ton of Zerglings, Spine Crawlers are good but may be optional. The idea is to use Roaches to try and pick off Hellions and tank damage and then flooding the enemy with Zerglings when you see a good opportunity. The times when I am able to scout this all-in I typically haven't had any problem stopping it with just Roach/Ling, just balance your army to beat what the enemy has, more Marauders means more Lings, more Hellions means more Roaches.
agreed, roaches in tvp are good defensively and not overproduced. I just hate to see people doig blind roach aggression up a Terran ramp. It's generally never worth it, bunker and scvs to repair will set you behind and much weaker to a marine/marauder/ tank push. It will only accomplish anything if the Terran is playing very thin/greedy
One of the many counters that I prefer to this is (as always) correct scouting to see it coming.
If I see them doing it usually I'll throw down two more spines (usually have 2 for hellion harrass and to protect against this already) towards the back of the natural. Always have a baneling nest to protect against things like this. Morph 5-6 banes and focus on ling production. When they engage run lings behind their hellions to prevent kiting then run the banelings into the hellions. Once the hellions are gone the marauders are next to useless and can be easily cleaned up with lings.
Allows you to stay on your typical tech path (ling / bling) rated than going out of the way for roaches.
i feel TLO's 6 rax is better when talking about all-ins, because pulling scv's makes it really all-in, but of course short games make it easier to rise up in the Ladder ranks XD
AND if i remember correctly, the pro's marauder hellion all-ins always off two base or with expansion behind right? This one is with stim.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
All changes that Blizzard made in the game since 10 patches ago invite T to all-in either of the two races, since Z and P have ways to get ahead, if left alone: Zerg can make 16 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries and toss can reach 3/3 before terran has finished his 2/2 AND have 20 workers more out of the same number of bases. I wonder if this hellion/marauder all-in can be done on a toss as well...
go to the actual youtube site and I have the BO down.
I analyzed forgg myself ^_^
First off, dont do this. Its really not on to have a video in a video which is most of the time too small to see. You are cearly jsut trying to get people to your channel.
HOWEVER, good video. But do you know why he waits so long for the second rax? He has the money for it for like 30 seconds and doesnt build it. I always build it asap and never have issues.
Very well written guide! Terran has always and will always revolve around strong timings or attacks that need to be scouted or you die. Early game Marauders in big numbers really pose a threat not only to Zerg but also to Protoss and definitely need to be scouted. The problem with this build is in my opinion that it is quite easy for Z to scout the natural and see if there is a CC going down.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
All changes that Blizzard made in the game since 10 patches ago invite T to all-in either of the two races, since Z and P have ways to get ahead, if left alone: Zerg can make 16 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries and toss can reach 3/3 before terran has finished his 2/2 AND have 20 workers more out of the same number of bases. I wonder if this hellion/marauder all-in can be done on a toss as well...
Balance whine. Really bad one as well. I will help you to make it better: 1. Zerg could make 38 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries 2. Protoss can reach 3/3/3 before Terran has reached 1/1 if Terran gets a late or no Engineering Bay. WOW!
Obviously, it all depends on the build. If Protoss has 20 workers more than you and 3/3 done before you finished your 2/2 you must have had a much stronger army than him for a long time. (Assuming, as you said, everyone has been left alone.)
I am not going to go into more detail because it doesn't make sense. Your argument is quite frankly ridiculous. T has just about the same chance to get ahead e.g. with mules. Saying something like if left alone is not only too vague, it's also just straight up BS balance-whine.
Zerg players: Don't let the spine dies. All you need is spines with queens and some lings, this is defendable. Make sure you try to kill all the marauders because without them, hellions cannot do anything about spines and queens. I have seen Stephano defended this with just one spine (and he didn't even scouted it coming) he was behind because there was a good hellion hit, but this shows you that with good control, 3 queens and lings and 1 spine can do.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
All changes that Blizzard made in the game since 10 patches ago invite T to all-in either of the two races, since Z and P have ways to get ahead, if left alone: Zerg can make 16 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries and toss can reach 3/3 before terran has finished his 2/2 AND have 20 workers more out of the same number of bases. I wonder if this hellion/marauder all-in can be done on a toss as well...
and honestly, stop trolling. You are showing a very low understanding of the game. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312138#13 Read through this thread, you posted a "balance whine" post again which showed your complete lack of understanding the mechanics behind zerg and tonnes of people are telling you what you need to understand.
Stim is good for taking down the spines, thats really it. I guess it can be worth it if you're really selective and conservative about your stim usage. I generally do not get it. That's not saying that it's bad to get it, it's all preference. If its a roach defense, stim would definitely be good. However the decision to get stim would come before roaches are scouted, so it's just whatever.
As a masters zerg I must say that some terrans definitely need to read this build. In my recent memory I have been marauder/hellion all-ined and BOTH times I have been 10-15 seconds from mutas popping, then the terran promptly ggs when they get to the fight. I never go super fast muta in any form and could never figure out how terran's are being so slow at getting this attack off.
Good guide, more people need to learn the right BO even at the "higher" levels
I watched all 3 replays (the 4th is the same as the 3rd) and only 1 opponent made 2 spines, but did so far enough apart you could focus down one without being hurt by the other. Also in 2 of the games they made macro hatches in their main as you moved out. Not to mention every game was on wide open naturals, not maps where they sim city like Shakuras.
So do you just avoid doing this on maps like Shakuras, and how do you deal with 2 spines? Many zerg put down 2 as a matter of course, and usually right next to each other. Running around with the hellions could work if they don't block with the 2 queens and the handful of speedlings they'll have (one of your opponents didn't even have speed).
I'm curious if this is at all viable if the zerg's getting 2 spines and more than 4 speedlings? Does anyone have replays of those games?
I saw Forgg doing it on his stream. It seemed easy enough to execute even though Forgg is obviously not easy to copy. I tried it myself and it worked beautifully. The banelings tickle the marauders and all the lings get roasted by the hellions. *thumbs up* I've only tried it once though so 1/1 success rate.
On February 21 2012 04:43 celeryman wrote: I watched all 3 replays (the 4th is the same as the 3rd) and only 1 opponent made 2 spines, but did so far enough apart you could focus down one without being hurt by the other. Also in 2 of the games they made macro hatches in their main as you moved out. Not to mention every game was on wide open naturals, not maps where they sim city like Shakuras.
So do you just avoid doing this on maps like Shakuras, and how do you deal with 2 spines? Many zerg put down 2 as a matter of course, and usually right next to each other. Running around with the hellions could work if they don't block with the 2 queens and the handful of speedlings they'll have (one of your opponents didn't even have speed).
I'm curious if this is at all viable if the zerg's getting 2 spines and more than 4 speedlings? Does anyone have replays of those games?
yup, I don't do this on shakuras, I go for fast 3 orbital there with 3 rax to wall. But I'm sure I have some replays of this on metalopolis. Antiga can also be tricky. I'll sort through some of y games later and post replays of me both losing and winning to 2+ spines. As far as dealing with mass spines, it's difficult. Sometimes I just run past them. Can't do that on shakuras though.
The best way to beat this is to hatch first, get a third queen and a spine crawler. Overlord scout or sneak out lings to see if there's an expansion and try to find out what units are coming toward your base.
The terran's job is to deny scouting so the late expansion doesn't tip them off. Given you have so few marines, you'll probably not be able to deny a proper overlord scout, but you can deny ling scouts and prevent creep spread. The key is to only show 4 hellions before pushing. Some people make 6 for builds like reactor hellion double expand, but if you do that a lot of people will get scared and build extra units/spines or a lot of roaches which will all shut down the attack rather easily.
I'd also say it's a build order loss against unusually fast muta (9~ minutes) assuming they have a decent spine/ling count, but it's possible that you can barely kill them. A more common build order loss will be against the roach/baneling all-in, which can both demolish your push and kill you easily. Though they typically don't make tons of units until roughly 8 minutes, they can have 11 or so roaches quite fast and they can scout with speedlings or overlords before your push to adjust if necessary.
I don't see how you are supposed to keep zerg from scouting this. Zerg will be able to see you being on 1 base with overlords alone and there's nothing you can do about it. Even if you manage to keep lings from seeing anything zerg can just sac an ovie and very likely scout this. 2 marines aren't enough to cover the sides of your base and it also takes them quite some time to kill an ovie.
Definitely a very strong all-in but imo kinda easily scouted.
hey OP, instead of pulling guys out of gas, do you think conc shells would be good to fit in the build since its a quick upgrade and makes it so queens cant run away?
On February 21 2012 05:26 Entteri wrote: I don't see how you are supposed to keep zerg from scouting this. Zerg will be able to see you being on 1 base with overlords alone and there's nothing you can do about it. Even if you manage to keep lings from seeing anything zerg can just sac an ovie and very likely scout this. 2 marines aren't enough to cover the sides of your base and it also takes them quite some time to kill an ovie.
Definitely a very strong all-in but imo kinda easily scouted.
If I have map control, I typically just rally all the marauders and hellions somewhere else on the map, and leave 3-4 marines in the base and 2 hellions at the natural. Zerg will probably still see all my infrastructure, but he has no idea if I'm using that techlab for CS and stim or for marauders. Only works a few times, but it's so rewarding when it does.
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
Its really not that hard to defend tbh. Roach/ling will hold it (you just need to know its coming to produce the amount of units, 1 or 2 spines doesn't hurt) or pure speedling + spines will hold it as well. This should really only kill you if you don't see it coming until its to late
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I really think you are just gimping the build if you don't pull scv.
