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[Q] How does zerg actually defend against timings?
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VisiO789
United States7 Posts
http://drop.sc/112473 http://drop.sc/112472 http://drop.sc/112474 | ||
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Khainer
Netherlands54 Posts
Those timing hit hard so saving up enough larvae to create an army when he start pushing out is probably to late. vs Terran you need to catch him, preferable, before he stand outside your base but somewhere along his traveling. Flanking comes to mind. vs Protoss you need to have a big army and fight near your spines. Attempt to make it impossible for the Protoss to shutdown your reinforcements (FF on ramp) so the more forward you can place those spines the better. This is where creep spread is important too, the further away his pylon is the better. | ||
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Lionhermit
United States10 Posts
Your core mechanics need work. Injects are sloppy, you don't scout often enough to know what the terran is capable of, and what you should be preparing for. You're constantly behind in workers because you don't KNOW when you're safe to drone. You mine gas that you don't use, and generally seem to do things very haphazardly. Everything you do in the game should have a reason. It's all about doing things in the most efficient way possible. Also, don't cry about hellions being the most bullshit unit in the game when YOU lost the game on your own. The fact that your opponent used hellions is irrelevant when ANY decent pressure build would have killed you. Focus on what you can do better, when you're at the highest levels of play, THEN you can worry about balance. In your first game against terran, you play scared and make a million lings to defend against hellions. Hint: lings aren't too good against hellions unless you can get a full surround. You shouldn't really rely on them as hellion defense unless you've got decent micro. You continue to get kited by them until you eventually lose everything. GG. Why not get another queen or two and/or spines, which are much more cost effective defense? Simcity with evo chambers/roach warren if you're that worried about runbys. You spent hundreds of minerals on lings that did nothing for you, when that money could have been reinvested in your economy. In the second game, you try to make roaches, lings, and spines as defense VERY early in the game. Making roaches and lings would have been fine if you had done something with the units, maybe a tang-style roach/ling pressure build would have been able to do some damage to your opponent. However, you sacrifice your economy for virtually no reason. It all goes back to doing things efficiently: you need to COMMIT to something. Either defend as efficiently as possible, or gear up for early pressure to take map control back if that's what you want to do. You were also behind in workers for the entire early game. Learn when to drone and when to make an army. Zerg basics. Study up! Hope you can take a few things from this, try to keep on improving! | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On February 15 2012 17:40 Khainer wrote: Knowledge is power, if you see it coming you can prepare. If you get caught by suprise you're fucked. Those timing hit hard so saving up enough larvae to create an army when he start pushing out is probably to late. vs Terran you need to catch him, preferable, before he stand outside your base but somewhere along his traveling. Flanking comes to mind. vs Protoss you need to have a big army and fight near your spines. Attempt to make it impossible for the Protoss to shutdown your reinforcements (FF on ramp) so the more forward you can place those spines the better. This is where creep spread is important too, the further away his pylon is the better. Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:12 WickedSkies wrote: Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? Because if we make units, we can't make drones as well. We have to choose. Since people's skill is very varied at lower levels, we don't know when we're actually supposed to make some units for defense. It's better to overdrone and lose than to die 10 min later because you never had enough drones. To answer the OP. Scouting is important BUT the timings that hit you could've been stronger too. Focus on perfect injects, spread your creep some more (helps if you try to use banes), have minimap awareness to make units the moment he moves out (should have a ling or something in front of his base). | ||
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totalpigeon
United Kingdom162 Posts
Admittedly knowing when to drone and when to make units takes some learning, but it's no more difficult than learning some timings for getting your tech and making units based off what you scout. However, there will always be a minimum time at which the enemy can effectively push based on their opening (what you scout with your drone) which you can safely drone until. Learning when this is is part of playing zerg, as is learning how much longer you can keep going based on what you scout later (with overlords and ling pokes). | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:12 WickedSkies wrote: Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? because zerg doesn't have enough larvae to produce both army and drones. personally, I scout very actively, first, second and third scout (drone, zergling, overlord in that order) to try to figure out what he is doing, which leave these big cathegories: cheese or pressure play: do the appropriate response. expanding behind pressure: since he is expanding, the pressure should not be that harsh, thus you can mostly defend with a combination of spines and zerglings, at time you need roaches. continue as "some expand strategy" below some expand strategy: hold all xelnaga towers of possible, make sure to have good coverage of whether he moves out or not, if he moves out earlier than you start building units, emergency units + reinforcements should handle it somewhat well, send out scouting units to his logical third location(s) when you feel an enemy third might be a threat. saturate 2 bases and get some drones on your third, but not very many, just 5-8, dont take any gas on third unless you go for a very gas-intensive build. now the decisionmaking splits up into two possibilities: a) he has taken a third by now great, so its not a 2-base timing attack (alternatively it can be a 2base-timing attack which he expands behind, if it is, you should see an enemy army moving out shortly), instead you have to prepare for a deathball coming at you. then you can do pretty much whatever you want, drone or go units, but I recommend getting units before droning too much more, since the opponent can just randomly move out at any point in time and kill you if you don't have any defense. b) he has not taken a third by now get units, a lot of them. there will be some heavy pressure coming at you very soon. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
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VisiO789
United States7 Posts
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654321
Belize100 Posts
...Ovie scout terran's main when 4x hellions is at zerg natural. If a Command center is built, meaning terran just want to pressure and expand. Will likely be a very late timing. This timing is likely to be when you get your 3rd. ...If no CC, Heavy all-in. Rdy for it. cut drone. Will likely be very soon. | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:47 Clarity_nl wrote: Because if we make units, we can't make drones as well. Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:56 WickedSkies wrote: Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... Randomly agressive post towards me but okay. Yes, we can make SOME units and SOME drones, the end result being very safe play, but weaker later on unless you're being really agressive like Stephano. That's a stylistic change, not really advice I would give to anyone but high masters+ to toy around with, as much of Stephano's style is still unexplored, and I speculate once T and P figure out Z can make a medium amounts of units rather than either going all in or playing super greedy, they'll adjust. Choosing to make units is also choosing to NOT make drones. This is how larvae work, but maybe this is beyond the comprehension of someone who calls "zerg players in general" people who are unable to think. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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biz87
Germany95 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:56 WickedSkies wrote: Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... oh boy. do you even understand zerg when you're watching stephano's stream? he is maxing at 12minutes mark with roaches against a protoss forge FE. it's definitely not because he is making units and drones at the same time.. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:12 WickedSkies wrote: Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? Do you even understand how Zerg works? You have to make waves of either drones or units to stay ahead. If you make half drones and half units, you end up behind in workers. | ||
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Igaryu85
Germany195 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:56 WickedSkies wrote: Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... Congratulations you fully understood the zerg race. You probably also allready figured out that zerg is the easy race right? Anyone able to do simple math would realize that the more drones one gets as early as possible the bigger the bonus to that. Allthough if one knows an attack is coming it can be beneficial to have more units than the absolute minimum to have a decent amount of units left to savely drone behind/possibly pressure. In the recommended strategy threads there is a saturation guide by sheth which might be helpfull to you (OP). For the swarm! | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:42 Igaryu85 wrote: Anyone able to do simple math would realize that the more drones one gets as early as possible the bigger the bonus to that. For the swarm! Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). User was banned for this post. | ||
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654321
Belize100 Posts
 .---Your goal is to be as greedy as possible with the least amount of defend if you want macro game. -----When lings made, You have to make extra ling hiding in your main to go for all in. | ||
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