EPThttp://drop.sc/112473
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[Q] How does zerg actually defend against timings?
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VisiO789
United States7 Posts
http://drop.sc/112473 http://drop.sc/112472 http://drop.sc/112474 | ||
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Khainer
Netherlands54 Posts
Those timing hit hard so saving up enough larvae to create an army when he start pushing out is probably to late. vs Terran you need to catch him, preferable, before he stand outside your base but somewhere along his traveling. Flanking comes to mind. vs Protoss you need to have a big army and fight near your spines. Attempt to make it impossible for the Protoss to shutdown your reinforcements (FF on ramp) so the more forward you can place those spines the better. This is where creep spread is important too, the further away his pylon is the better. | ||
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Lionhermit
United States10 Posts
Your core mechanics need work. Injects are sloppy, you don't scout often enough to know what the terran is capable of, and what you should be preparing for. You're constantly behind in workers because you don't KNOW when you're safe to drone. You mine gas that you don't use, and generally seem to do things very haphazardly. Everything you do in the game should have a reason. It's all about doing things in the most efficient way possible. Also, don't cry about hellions being the most bullshit unit in the game when YOU lost the game on your own. The fact that your opponent used hellions is irrelevant when ANY decent pressure build would have killed you. Focus on what you can do better, when you're at the highest levels of play, THEN you can worry about balance. In your first game against terran, you play scared and make a million lings to defend against hellions. Hint: lings aren't too good against hellions unless you can get a full surround. You shouldn't really rely on them as hellion defense unless you've got decent micro. You continue to get kited by them until you eventually lose everything. GG. Why not get another queen or two and/or spines, which are much more cost effective defense? Simcity with evo chambers/roach warren if you're that worried about runbys. You spent hundreds of minerals on lings that did nothing for you, when that money could have been reinvested in your economy. In the second game, you try to make roaches, lings, and spines as defense VERY early in the game. Making roaches and lings would have been fine if you had done something with the units, maybe a tang-style roach/ling pressure build would have been able to do some damage to your opponent. However, you sacrifice your economy for virtually no reason. It all goes back to doing things efficiently: you need to COMMIT to something. Either defend as efficiently as possible, or gear up for early pressure to take map control back if that's what you want to do. You were also behind in workers for the entire early game. Learn when to drone and when to make an army. Zerg basics. Study up! Hope you can take a few things from this, try to keep on improving! | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On February 15 2012 17:40 Khainer wrote: Knowledge is power, if you see it coming you can prepare. If you get caught by suprise you're fucked. Those timing hit hard so saving up enough larvae to create an army when he start pushing out is probably to late. vs Terran you need to catch him, preferable, before he stand outside your base but somewhere along his traveling. Flanking comes to mind. vs Protoss you need to have a big army and fight near your spines. Attempt to make it impossible for the Protoss to shutdown your reinforcements (FF on ramp) so the more forward you can place those spines the better. This is where creep spread is important too, the further away his pylon is the better. Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:12 WickedSkies wrote: Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? Because if we make units, we can't make drones as well. We have to choose. Since people's skill is very varied at lower levels, we don't know when we're actually supposed to make some units for defense. It's better to overdrone and lose than to die 10 min later because you never had enough drones. To answer the OP. Scouting is important BUT the timings that hit you could've been stronger too. Focus on perfect injects, spread your creep some more (helps if you try to use banes), have minimap awareness to make units the moment he moves out (should have a ling or something in front of his base). | ||
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totalpigeon
United Kingdom162 Posts
Admittedly knowing when to drone and when to make units takes some learning, but it's no more difficult than learning some timings for getting your tech and making units based off what you scout. However, there will always be a minimum time at which the enemy can effectively push based on their opening (what you scout with your drone) which you can safely drone until. Learning when this is is part of playing zerg, as is learning how much longer you can keep going based on what you scout later (with overlords and ling pokes). | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:12 WickedSkies wrote: Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? because zerg doesn't have enough larvae to produce both army and drones. personally, I scout very actively, first, second and third scout (drone, zergling, overlord in that order) to try to figure out what he is doing, which leave these big cathegories: cheese or pressure play: do the appropriate response. expanding behind pressure: since he is expanding, the pressure should not be that harsh, thus you can mostly defend with a combination of spines and zerglings, at time you need roaches. continue as "some expand strategy" below some expand strategy: hold all xelnaga towers of possible, make sure to have good coverage of whether he moves out or not, if he moves out earlier than you start building units, emergency units + reinforcements should handle it somewhat well, send out scouting units to his logical third location(s) when you feel an enemy third might be a threat. saturate 2 bases and get some drones on your third, but not very many, just 5-8, dont take any gas on third unless you go for a very gas-intensive build. now the decisionmaking splits up into two possibilities: a) he has taken a third by now great, so its not a 2-base timing attack (alternatively it can be a 2base-timing attack which he expands behind, if it is, you should see an enemy army moving out shortly), instead you have to prepare for a deathball coming at you. then you can do pretty much whatever you want, drone or go units, but I recommend getting units before droning too much more, since the opponent can just randomly move out at any point in time and kill you if you don't have any defense. b) he has not taken a third by now get units, a lot of them. there will be some heavy pressure coming at you very soon. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
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VisiO789
United States7 Posts
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654321
Belize100 Posts
...Ovie scout terran's main when 4x hellions is at zerg natural. If a Command center is built, meaning terran just want to pressure and expand. Will likely be a very late timing. This timing is likely to be when you get your 3rd. ...If no CC, Heavy all-in. Rdy for it. cut drone. Will likely be very soon. | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:47 Clarity_nl wrote: Because if we make units, we can't make drones as well. Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:56 WickedSkies wrote: Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... Randomly agressive post towards me but okay. Yes, we can make SOME units and SOME drones, the end result being very safe play, but weaker later on unless you're being really agressive like Stephano. That's a stylistic change, not really advice I would give to anyone but high masters+ to toy around with, as much of Stephano's style is still unexplored, and I speculate once T and P figure out Z can make a medium amounts of units rather than either going all in or playing super greedy, they'll adjust. Choosing to make units is also choosing to NOT make drones. This is how larvae work, but maybe this is beyond the comprehension of someone who calls "zerg players in general" people who are unable to think. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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biz87
Germany95 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:56 WickedSkies wrote: Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... oh boy. do you even understand zerg when you're watching stephano's stream? he is maxing at 12minutes mark with roaches against a protoss forge FE. it's definitely not because he is making units and drones at the same time.. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On February 15 2012 18:12 WickedSkies wrote: Or why not just make units all the time like the other races and not only when you see his giant army coming for you? Do you even understand how Zerg works? You have to make waves of either drones or units to stay ahead. If you make half drones and half units, you end up behind in workers. | ||
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Igaryu85
Germany195 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:56 WickedSkies wrote: Yes, you can. Instead of holding the d button and going for a coffee break, make some drones and some units, kinda like Stephano does. Of course, it requires you to think, which is too much to expect from most zergs... Congratulations you fully understood the zerg race. You probably also allready figured out that zerg is the easy race right? Anyone able to do simple math would realize that the more drones one gets as early as possible the bigger the bonus to that. Allthough if one knows an attack is coming it can be beneficial to have more units than the absolute minimum to have a decent amount of units left to savely drone behind/possibly pressure. In the recommended strategy threads there is a saturation guide by sheth which might be helpfull to you (OP). For the swarm! | ||
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WickedSkies
Netherlands81 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:42 Igaryu85 wrote: Anyone able to do simple math would realize that the more drones one gets as early as possible the bigger the bonus to that. For the swarm! Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). User was banned for this post. | ||
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654321
Belize100 Posts
 .---Your goal is to be as greedy as possible with the least amount of defend if you want macro game. -----When lings made, You have to make extra ling hiding in your main to go for all in. | ||
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Solarist
291 Posts
Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). Let me guess, you just got your ass handed to you by a zerg, and now you come here to passive aggressivly bitch about the race. because who could beat a sc2 god like you? Take your childish whine to reddit or some other place please | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). Worst troll attempt ever.  At least put some effort into it. | ||
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Solarist
291 Posts
Worst troll attempt ever. At least put some effort into it. You never know, he might just be that fucking stupid | ||
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ETisME
12358 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). Alright guys, we have a low level terran here, bear with him for he doesn't get the concept of Zerg. I think I can give you some answers: 1: can terran be safe against a 10 min push with 6 orbital and 30 rax the moment the units are coming? No. Why? Where's the tech? Can zerg do it? No. We don't need x amount of orbital and x amount of rax, we just need some hatchies and a spawning pool. 2: There are ways to punish an expo-first build. Protoss can do it as well, terran also. What, you mean you didn't know? 3: Just a couple of zergs? I feel sorry for you then. It only takes one arm, one eye, a parrot biting the ear (ouch) and some mental retardation to beat a perfectly healthy, 2 eyes, 2 hands (well I sure hope so) terran. Be prepared to get beaten by more of us retards them. The game is a lot more deeper than "of cause you lose if you don't build any units and just drone lol" mind set. Just to make sure I stay on topic. Many of these timing pushes are knowing what kind and what type is it. Because the toss and terran timing pushes are usually following a strict build and you can kind of have a general idea of what's coming either by a ling poke or sac-ing overlord to check for the tech route. | ||
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Kuror
United States399 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). Seriously? Are you ACTUALLY being serious? The point of the thread is to help the OP with his problem. Stop whining about how an entire race of players is less intelligent than another. It just makes you sound stupid. Edit: Didn't mean to add on to the 6 posts trashing this guy, excuse me :x | ||
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FrozenFruit
21 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). This guy has to be trolling :S that or just educationally challenged... 1st - Terrans do follow that principle lol. Ever heard of reactor hellion double expo to 3 orbitals asap? And then units later. They get as greedy as they can to gain an economic edge which translates to a bigger army/more production later. Protoss FFE to stay even in PvZ on workers allowing them to hit stronger timings. Zerg functions exactly the same, make drones instead of units to maximise your economic position and only make units to avoid dying. 2nd - I assume you don't play Zerg because I can't really respond to this. I will mention something about larva coming from hatches meaning to hold builds like 2 rax it's important to have enough larva to spend on units as well as creep for spines and something about 14/14 speedling expos being very strongly negated by marine/hellion or hellion pokes. By barely scouting you mean scouting like every other race with a worker to check Terran for workers, gas timings and all sorts of other handy stuff like proxies. 3rd - I see, I hope you're not reflecting on how you managed to lose a game. I also assume you're playing quite bad opponents. Or maybe you're just baiting other people to respond. Either way you shouldn't be in this thread so please stop derailing and console yourself on "people feeling entitled to beat skilful terrans" with your buddies. Back on topic, OP, as everyone else has said you need to look at your basic mechanics. The other thing to think about is that in defending a push timing if you defend it on an equal economy then you are not ahead. You must have a slightly bigger economy, tech or crush his army to end up ahead, which doesn't happen in the replays you submitted. Objectively you need to get to a "safe" drone count as quickly as possible, then scout the timing and make enough units to be safe and get back to droning meaning you can tech/make army whilst they are rebuilding and thus you can deny their continuation be it all-in or take a third. vs P is where this matters most because if they FFE then you need to hit every inject, not get supply blocked and race to 55 drones asap. Then make your units to defend a 2 base timing like a 6 gate. Otherwise 60 drones if its a later timing from more econ. vs T You made too many lings too early, like 2 queens and a spine with a few lings to catch the hellions in a net if they try to runby is perfect. If you see more than 6 hellions get a second spine and simcity with an evo chamber to narrow choke. But once again rush to 55 drones then make pure lings whilst teching to lair, getting +1 carapace/melee, bane nest, getting creep on the map etc. Injects are so so important because if you hit them early in the game then you have so many more drones earlier meaning you can have more stuff in the midgame (if you inject enough then) with a macro hatch to crush any marine/tank timing and have a superior economy if the Terran isn't mid/high masters. | ||
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). 1. Totally false information. 2. "Racial" Discrimination LOL Sir, i seriously recommend you contacting your personal doctor(if you have the luxury to afford one). You comments most definitely irritates the more astute and well-going forum user. I suggest you take a break and learn how to play the game before you comment on something you do not understand. TL:DR: Learn to play dumbass. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). It seems like you're not here to help the op and more here to just randomly whine overpowered. Abusing people in the progress with insults and wild accusations that make no sense to anyone with half a brain. I'm reporting you. Enjoy your day. | ||
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Igaryu85
Germany195 Posts
First of all funny that you call me Idra fanboy as Idra is really one of the zerg players that I do not value much at all, he has great mechanics but in my eyes lacks in decision making which I find to be extremely important for zerg players. To your first part: As it was allready mentioned before terrans actually try to get a double expand aka try to be as greedy as possible themselves but for Zergs that 6 Orbitals/Hatches would actually enable them to build TONS of army at once while the terran would have to build the factories or barracks in addition to the orbitals. This is the mechanic that actually allows zerg to profit from boosting their eco as much as possible in the early game. This by the way enables us zerg to get an insane economy much faster than any other race when neglecting to collect gas in the early stages but comes with a hughe price of being very vulnerable if one would choose to play like that for too long. To your second part: IF you understood the first part you should now understand that zerg mechanics are exactly which should enable zerg to expand first while still being relatively safe(with the exception to ZvP and the cannon issue;). Also I would sure love to see you revolutionize the zerg race with your innovative style of not expanding early maybe there is alot of merit to this which the community was just not able to reckognize since only the mentally disordered people seem to play zerg(in your opinion and who knows maybe you are right,right?) To your third part: Hey really great you got such sucess playing zerg maybe you should consider a race switch to zerg. You could get into GM if its so easy and try to dominate the SC2 pro scene, maybe even with your one base zerg style? For other zerg it often feels like one has to be quiet skilled to beat a terran because terrans are pretty hard to kill or so I think if they have tanks and PFs or in the early stages often even a wall in is enough to keep a zerg from just killing the terran(not saying it is imbalanced just that it sometimes really feels pretty hard). So yea WickedSkies I can only say that I think all races have their challenging parts about them but if you think zerg is the easiest race for you then why not pick it? I actually only play zerg nowadays because I cant cope the macro with Terran or Toss (not that my Zerg macro is really good;) and because I do like the whole zerg feeling. So join the Zerg but imrpove on your manner before doing so...you could tarnish the zerg communities uhm reputation. To the OP I can really just advise you to take a look at this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=219257 and also the other threads in the Zerg Recommended Strategy Threads which can be found here in the Zerg section: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255 Also as others said injects and supply blocks are something to really watch out for you will be surpised how much more stuff you will have once you get just these 2 things fixed. And as someone mentioned before get used to scouting with a drone and having lings infront of your opponents base to see when he moves out. Also sending in an overlord at like 4 minutes if your opponent stays one base or like 6-7 minutes if he expanded can often tell you alot about what is to come. Greetins Igaryu85 | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
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smwatkin
Canada399 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
On February 16 2012 02:56 WickedSkies wrote: Hello, Idra fanboy. 1-st. Anyone able to do simple math would realize if things were that simple terran would just make 6 orbitals without making units and start making units out of its 30 rax at the moment he sees you coming. I don't see that happening in practice. 2-nd. Zerg players usually play outright stupidly. The whole notion that a race should be able to go expo first and barely scouting comes to show you that zerg is the race played by people who have trouble, in your words, to 'do the simple math'. (Cause you probably did not get what I mean by now, I will clarify: I imply that most zerg players are stupid) 3-rd. Playing a couple of games as zerg on ladder, I got utterly disgusted how easy the race is. What I don't get is why zergs think they are entitled to feel skilful beating a terran, for example, cause in order to lose with zerg vs terran, the zerg has to have one arm, one eye (basically, a pirate), a parrot biting his ear and some mental retardation (something I am sure most zerg players do have). what the fuck are u posting in a stratedy forum for if u dont even have a clue what your saying... zerg is not the "easy-mode" race. zergs are not stupid sorry bro but there are just as many retards playing all 3 races. to your 6 orbitals just you could do that just like zerg could take 6 bases before making units but ur gona die. please never post unhelpful crap like this in help forums its not the place for crying about races | ||
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
Oh, and Terran CAN and WILL do a triple orbital expand vs Z, which is like Z getting 4 bases at the start of the game. So your point is null. | ||
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OptIn
United States19 Posts
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llKenZyll
United States853 Posts
Scouting is one thing, knowing how to react is a different subject. I recommend this Zerg's blog for how to respond to certain specific strategies. | ||
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