EPTI was thinking about marine tank medivac raven ghost, but it seems like if I do that I would have so little of everything.
TvZ How to deal with infestor/ling (stephano)
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Defiled
16 Posts
I was thinking about marine tank medivac raven ghost, but it seems like if I do that I would have so little of everything. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
Another thing are banshees, as infestors dont have that much energy at first, having a few banshees (dont stack them!) means that zerg pretty much cant leave his creep, as it costs alot of energy and time to kill single banshees. Also its important to build 1-2 vikings later to remove overlords, so your drops wont be spotted before landing. that makes them much more powerful. | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:06 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think its somewhat vulnerable to blueflame hellion / marine timings that hit before infestors are out. There used to be a quite popular combatshield + blueflame push some time ago, which should do quite good. an example would be Mvp against Nestea on Daybreak in their recent GSL match, Nestea tried to rely on lings (+ morphing banes when he saw the push coming) to defend and was killed quite easily. Another thing are banshees, as infestors dont have that much energy at first, having a few banshees (dont stack them!) means that zerg pretty much cant leave his creep, as it costs alot of energy and time to kill single banshees. Also its important to build 1-2 vikings later to remove overlords, so your drops wont be spotted before landing. that makes them much more powerful. Yes i highly agree with this. http://drop.sc/92344 They rely on mass lings to defend midgame pushes normally, and well, 2fact BFH absolutely shits on this. I coulda built a viking too instead of that first medivac but i like to get that early medivac just makes my push feel alot stronger. Also keep in mind if people go infestor first, you dont have to build turrets for mutas. that saves you alot of mins, so i'd just either expand once or double expo because infestor first cant really kill you. Infestor first seems really weak imo. | ||
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ReligionLOL
United States137 Posts
On January 16 2012 06:57 Defiled wrote: I am struggling as terran against infestor ling into ultra/brood lords. I normally can beat the muta bling players with my build and I use the same one against infestor ling but it is usually a loss. Pushing on creep with tanks is really hard against infestors with burrow. If I go too forward with marines ill get fungaled and if my tanks are out too forward, eggs get them killed. And I don't know any real signs or things I should scout for that would let me know he's going for infestor ling early on. Is there any good build that is solid against both? (Currently I use reactor helion into strong 2 base timing attack) Just watching thorzain get rolled today in the shoutcraft thing makes me feel that this style is just a bit op to be honest. I was thinking about marine tank medivac raven ghost, but it seems like if I do that I would have so little of everything. try mmm with tons of drops. get ghosts later. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:20 Picklebread wrote: Yes i highly agree with this. http://drop.sc/92344 They rely on mass lings to defend midgame pushes normally, and well, 2fact BFH absolutely shits on this. I coulda built a viking too instead of that first medivac but i like to get that early medivac just makes my push feel alot stronger. Also keep in mind if people go infestor first, you dont have to build turrets for mutas. that saves you alot of mins, so i'd just either expand once or double expo because infestor first cant really kill you. Infestor first seems really weak imo. I'd like to think that most zerg players would throw down a roach warren if they scout 2fac...even if they are going festor ling. Zerg is the most reactive race, so you have to use your head and go roaches against 2fact, which most people would derive as mech play. I think Darkforce is right, marine hellion timings would be very strong, as we have seen in the GSL recently with Stephano v MVP | ||
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slwen
Australia37 Posts
I have a bit more success by simply getting more hellions off the first reactor (usually 6) which seems to force the roaches while I try for an earlier 3rd CC. I've been doing this blindly. My question is what should I be looking for early on to scout whether my opponent is going for this heavy ling style? | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On January 16 2012 20:20 slwen wrote: I've been having trouble with this heavy ling style too - my style has usually been to get the hellions out, deny the Zerg 3rd and hit him with a big 2 base tank/marine attack at around 10-12 minutes. Unfortunately this gets crushed by a very heavy ling composition. I have a bit more success by simply getting more hellions off the first reactor (usually 6) which seems to force the roaches while I try for an earlier 3rd CC. I've been doing this blindly. My question is what should I be looking for early on to scout whether my opponent is going for this heavy ling style? Double Evo, Late gas/lair, an infestation pit around the 10 min mark, around 12 min hive. Stuff like that is indicative of ling festor ultra. Also I wouldnt recommend a tank marine push at that time. Your likely to just get wrecked. I'd suggest lots of drop play, coupled with heavy upgrades to negate zerg fast upgrades. | ||
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Lasbike
France2888 Posts
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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xTrim
472 Posts
But a good response, once scouted ling infestor, is not to really commit to the oh so good timing push at around 10 mins... Instead, get your third up and running, since lings and infestors simply cannot crush a PF with 5 tanks backing it up. Once you get your 6 geysers going, your starport should be up with a techlab so pump a raven really quick... (i personally dont go reactor medivacs in TvZ because it eats too much of the important gas... I like gtting a high tank count up, so I don stim that much)... the raven is SO GOOD in tvz... it is SO MUCH UNDERUSED... its so good to push into creep with detection and to clear baneling land mines... also, if you get caught with your pants down you should have energy for emergency PDDs versus mutas | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
If you want to get a lot of build order wins and not really learn much, then go for the slayers build from a few mlg's ago, reactor hellion expand, swap after 2 hellions --> blue flame marine hellion elevator. If you want to improve your army control and mechanics and decision making then I'd say go with a pretty standard marine mediavac with upgrades into tanks and a third base after a reactor hellion expand. 4-6 hellions, 2 more barracks, lift the fact, build a second reactor with it and an ebay and second gas, into starport and third gas. If you haven't thrown your hellions away, you'll be able to easily deny a greedy third from zerg, and/or clear out all of their creep spread if they're still on 2 base, it usually forces them to reveal their tech as well (basically if they're going 2 base spire, you'll see the mutas, or if they're going roach bane, you'll see a lot of roaches). Most importantly you can retreat, as they can't chase you off-creep with banes or roaches, and you have 4-6 hellions which prevent lings from following. | ||
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SmackDiablo
United States49 Posts
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
 + Of course you can transition into tanks pretty quickly | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
Against it, helion/marines pushes early are good; early marine tanks pushes are bad; multiple drops can become a nightmare, and terran playing more defensive and greedy is (imo, not sure) more efficient. | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
I am not at home right now so I don't have my go to builds on hand but I would really try this helion+marine stim timing drop and see if it works for you. It does a really great job at catching the zerg completely off guard giving you just the right amount of marines to fully load two medivacs then just elevator the helions in, STIM and go. **First part is normal reactor factory opening** 9 - Supply 12 - Barracks 13 - Gas 15 - Orbital and 1 Marine 16 - Supply 17/18 - Factory 21 - Command Center and Reactor on Barracks **Once Reactor and Factory are complete swap them** (Going down from here I cannot remember the exact supply/timing as I'm not at home to provide it) 22 - Double helion production to 4 helions MAX then stop. 23 - At the same time that you swapped the addons you get a tech lab on the barracks immediately after it lands and start STIM @6:00 - You make 2 Barracks and lift the factory so that one of these Barracks is being made on the empty reactor @6:23 - Starport, Gas #2 and Reactor on Factory to swap for double medivacs Once the medivacs are up go and do your drop to a corner of their base they won't see, elevator the helions in if you can. Sorry the build is written in a messy fashion. This build has a great follow up to it. Just make sure that you never get supply blocked so that you have enough marines when you go drop. Tech lab on your factory after you move out and start tank production while non stop marine production on barracks, make your 3rd CC and start an engineering bay. -Good luck! | ||
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Pugwalker
50 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On January 16 2012 07:06 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think its somewhat vulnerable to blueflame hellion / marine timings that hit before infestors are out. There used to be a quite popular combatshield + blueflame push some time ago, which should do quite good. an example would be Mvp against Nestea on Daybreak in their recent GSL match, Nestea tried to rely on lings (+ morphing banes when he saw the push coming) to defend and was killed quite easily. Another thing are banshees, as infestors dont have that much energy at first, having a few banshees (dont stack them!) means that zerg pretty much cant leave his creep, as it costs alot of energy and time to kill single banshees. Also its important to build 1-2 vikings later to remove overlords, so your drops wont be spotted before landing. that makes them much more powerful. The problem I have with this though is that his choice to go for this build was not reactionary. He probably did it because he knows nestea's playstyle and I think it's bad for me to copy this as a legitimate ladder build. I usually do another Mvp build where you get 6 hellions and a fast third and I can handle mutas just fine but against infestor I just don't know what to do. I can't really push too early because I invest a lot into hellions and a 3rd CC and after the 10 minute mark the zerg will have too many infestors for me to really push into him. I'm not sure what the right transition is when you do a fast third build :/ Mvp loses almost in all the replays I got when he does the fast third build vs ling infestor (except in the one 45min game from blizzcon where nestea totally screws up in the end). I feel like it's a style win. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
Vikings is a nice touch to, to hunt ovies and they can also serve afterwards to look for hatches. I haven't really tried to use banshee's against that style. I suppose it could work well, but I kind of feel atleast if you are using them as a response, that they will be to late and creep spread will be good enough to stop any real use from them except simply for map control(which imo doesn't justify the cost). Things to consider about this style: You can split up your rines pre-fight and don't have to worry about muta flock annoyance. Adding in rauders helps to stim forward and snipe infestors. Lings aren't really good at killing rauders in siege range and FG is a waste on a couple of rauders. Personal opinion, but I don't really like ghosts against infestors. Ofcourse you will eventually be getting ghosts for t3, but before t3 is drawing nearer, I feel rauders are better since they deal better with lings(well they block lings more from rines rather), aren't as fragile, are faster, cheaper and like I said before, you can also use them to snipe infestors. In the end though, if you are going rine/tank/medivac, I kind of feel it's just always going to be a question of "does he get any money FGs?". If he doesn't and you've kept decently up with him in upgrades(very important, seeing as how upgrade heavy this style is), you *should* be winning the engagements, else he is likely going to crush you. | ||
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DoubleDouble
United States106 Posts
also, if youre going for a reactor hellion vs it, dont go for the 2 base timing push. lings deal with tanks extremely well. just get quicker medivacs and drop instead while taking a 3rd. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
Mvp went for 3 rax into blueflame hellion iirc. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
you can drop if you want but its really not necessary. with only lings you cant spread creep or take a third vs 8 hellions. vs muta ling bane terran cant do this because if you make that many hellions you cant hold a muta/ling/bane attack after taking your third, but with ling infestor the potential attack comes later and you can secure the third base. with the late third theres then no way zerg can hold that timing attack before their hive tech is up. if you really wanna bet on them doing ling infestor just do any kind of blue hellion + marine attack, but if they have banes they can defend that and you're behind. no banes and freewin though. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
When the zerg see the 8 hellions, what keep them from switching style and go into Mutabane ? The only thing they already commited into is often only the second Evo Chamber i think. It's nice to see you write again in Startegy forum Idra btw. Pro's insight are great. | ||
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beefITek
France54 Posts
make 8 hellion right but how do u know zerg is not going to fast roaches lings push ? going to blue flame hellion ok but u have to knowhis tech before u start to get into ur build... i mean, terran have a plan, and his BO is determined quite fast, at 6,7 or 8 minutes maybe, but with the 4 first hellion u cant know if zerg is going mass slings upgrades directly to infest, or lings banelings .. u can catch his tech with a scan around 10 ... i mean, if u planned to go 4 hellion then switch to tank marines, what element can help u to know that he will not go to lings banes, then maybe mutas, but only fukin slings +1 that will rape ur little marine tank army blue flame are great against this, but if u didnt plan, from the begin to go straight to them .. its a bit to late i think for example, the Mvp push against nestea BF hellion and marine, was planned since the beginning of the game, and was not an adaptation of what he saw .. so if u go to this BO, and zerg just go roaches lings at 7 min ? u're dead .. funny ^^ | ||
Poopi
France12886 Posts
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Oliveran
Sweden72 Posts
Turrets at all bases, and _TONS_ of tanks. Get like, instead of six tanks 6*4 = 24) and the rest marines, get like twelve tanks and the rest marines. No lings can run in there. Get marauders as well! | ||
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jonaa
Netherlands151 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On January 19 2012 22:24 Oliveran wrote: I'll just tell you a general thing that _WRECKS_ infestor/ling: Turrets at all bases, and _TONS_ of tanks. Get like, instead of six tanks 6*4 = 24) and the rest marines, get like twelve tanks and the rest marines. No lings can run in there. Get marauders as well! Upgraded lings are the counter to the 2 fac tank style (that's used to counter baneling heavy compositions). Obviously you can't attack 12 sieged tanks straight on. But with the superior mobility of mass ling, especially compared to tank heavy compositions, you can often flank him unsieged while he's in transition. You can engage a small number of sieged tanks by using infested terrans to absorb the first tank shots. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
It's also very easy to die to some early marine + blue flame hellion push. I think Stephano lost to MVP in that way on Shakuras. | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
banshee harass also work wonders as theres no muta to clean up. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On January 19 2012 20:46 IdrA wrote: against someone who always play that style just go reactor hellion expo, make 8 hellions to prevent a third and creep spread. take 3 bases, 4 on some maps where its easy to defend, make sure you have turrets to watch for infestor attacks. turtle and make a marine/marauder/tank army with a few medivacs and attack move a minute after their hive finishes. you can drop if you want but its really not necessary. with only lings you cant spread creep or take a third vs 8 hellions. vs muta ling bane terran cant do this because if you make that many hellions you cant hold a muta/ling/bane attack after taking your third, but with ling infestor the potential attack comes later and you can secure the third base. with the late third theres then no way zerg can hold that timing attack before their hive tech is up. if you really wanna bet on them doing ling infestor just do any kind of blue hellion + marine attack, but if they have banes they can defend that and you're behind. no banes and freewin though. Thanks for that. Only thing that's still missing for me is this one, very important scenario: I do the typical 6hellion fast third by mvp and my (ladder) opponent goes infestors instead of a spire. I feel like by the time I scout that he's going infestors it's already too late to adjust to that kind of play reasonably well. There won't be a reactor on my factory anymore and I won't have blue flame researched. Due to me investing that much into 6hellions and a second expansion I won't be able to do any pressure for a very long time. Zerg is free to double expand after dealing with my initial hellions and then mass infestors and tech to hive. Double upgraded lings supported by infestors rip through terran armies if it's backed up by a much better economy (which the zerg will have if he scouted what I was doing). Zreg could even go for a 2base all in with a macro hatch and double upgraded lings and a few infestors like nestea did vs mvp on shak in blizzcon. I'm still lacking the right transition. 8hellions and blue flame only works if I know my opponent, whereas the banshee thing darkforce mentioned is more applicable I think. Really no idea what to do, since I don't have any replays displaying a straight win for terran doing the 6hellion fast 3rd build vs a ling infestor player. edit: one more thing: could you elaborate a bit more on why 8hellions would not be able to deal with muta ling bane, but 6hellions can? It doesn't look like there's much difference. (not sure if 6hellions can thinking about the 2 base all in nestea did vs mvp on entombed valley in gsl, but let's say they can). | ||
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orangesunglasses
United States110 Posts
the earlier prementioned vikings are a big deal actually. it will kill at least a few overlords and pave the way for drops. tough to do banshee and drops so one or the other will do wonders (i lean toward viking drop) | ||
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