EPTTerran Guide - Page 3
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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augmentedfrog
United States3 Posts
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.Natsu
68 Posts
How would you hold off a thor rush of a proxy fact. in your TvT opening? | ||
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Stoosh
Australia14 Posts
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BlueBoxSC
United States582 Posts
Not butchered with spoilers, and easy enough to dissect at my own pace. Thanks. :D | ||
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gfever
United States180 Posts
On January 04 2012 03:39 Bojas wrote: And I am having problems reading this since I see this as a huge contradiction. You should focus only on mechanics but at the same time learn a solid build and stick to refining it, which is what lower level players want to do. What I was meant to say was to first learn to have enough mechanics to do the build you are doing. If you want still missing supply depots it doesn't matter wtf build you try to do it will fail. If you are still not dropping the mules ASAP or buildings structures ASAP then its hard to follow builds if you can't even do these simple things. Once you can follow them enough to a point where you don't really need to think about it you can then start learning off of them because your builds won't be in offset. So certain timings can start being memorized On January 04 2012 06:33 Zerg1ing wrote: This guide is gold. After more than a year of anxiety during ladder games and not thinking about my decisions, this has really changed the way I play. Just one question - Do you think TvZ mech has a lower skill roof than marine tank or bio? No, I think mech has a much higher ceiling than marine/tank. The fact is that, marine/tank has its path laid out already, the general concept is understood. Every map is played pretty similar without any real deviations. With mech however, each map is played differently, expos taken at different times. Not everything is the same on every map. You may think mech has no micro involved but you havn't seen a REAL mecher player. The most ideal mecher is someone who constantly is moving hellions. All the micro is put into building turrets and walls, positioning tanks and crawling forward. Establishing territory while harassing or scouting counter attacks. There is much more planning involved and much much more risk but great reward. Marine/tank is only micro intense during the battles, other than that its kind of a boring. Not much risk or huge reward factor. The skill is in planning not nesscariiy what you physically see. On January 04 2012 07:05 KingOfAmerica wrote: This guide was like a date with a real smooth talker. I wasn't so sure at first, but by the end it had my pants around my ankles. All kidding aside... this is a truly fantastic write up in terms of scope, detail and quality. I learned a ton. Much applause for a really solid contribution to the strategy forum. I have a couple of follow up questions / requests for future content: 1) Drop play in TvP. I see you say this is a requisite to win with bio in TvP, but I have a very hard time applying this (high plat / low diamond NA). Warp ins generally seem to be enough to manage any single ship drops, and I am extremely scared of weakening my main army by more then a drop ship worth of units at any time in case. Is your goal to do economic damage, or to just keep the protoss army in his base while you macro? Do you drop multiple locations at one time, or just have one ship out there being annoying? 2) TvP 2 Rax openings - I open 1 rax gasless into expand 4 rax marine production on pretty much every map (unless I scout something whacky), and while I know its putting a square peg into a round hole on xel naga and metal, I feel like I can get too far behind economically with other openings. Which 2 rax opening do you use? The 2 rax concussive push? 3) TvT - I generally open cloaked banshee into expand marine - tank. I patterned this build after MVP from MLG Providence, and it is reasonably strong at my level (while still having a coin flip element since I lock myself in). Do you consider this opening to gimmicky to be sustainable going forward? I have had a tough time making 1 rax expo work in this matchup, but I know it is more a reflection of my shoddy TvT skills then a weakness in the build. 1. I am not trying to kill probes. I am just keeping him in his base or force him to make units that he doesn't want to. Think of it this way. If he warps in but he wanted to expand, his expand is delayed. A better protoss would position units to stop drops so he doesn't waste resources to warp in to defend and instead use it for an upgrade or expo. Also, I am trying to keep the protoss in his base more or atleast stop him from expanding as quick as he wants to. I usually send 2 drops ships and do a combination of dropping in 2 spots or combining them and dropping in 1 place. 2. I use the combat shield b4 concussive, I believe its more powerful and can do more different timing attacks at 2 marauders or 3/4 depending on their builds. Either way if you play really high level, they usually don't lose a stalker to concussive. 3. I don't know about gimmicky, my build is built to be ladder friendly and a good one to pull back on for tournments. But you should see a trend where as you go high level you will start doing less and less damage with banshees. Its been pretty figured out. So instead I take a different approach and do a passive aggressive style of play. Force them to act upon my decisions indirectly. As for a learning tool, once you can do the build fine there isn't much to think about. On January 04 2012 20:28 euphzji wrote: Hey gfever. I love the guide so far, but I just have one question relating to your TvZ build order: In the line "Armory around 8 mins, Ebay after armory is finished, research vechicle attack, pump a thor" you say "pump a thor", but if I'm following your build order to the letter don't I not have a Factory with a tech lab on it at that time? I'm not sure if I'm missing anything and sorry in advance if I am. Sorry I wasn't being accurate enough. As you can see I don't memorize supply timings as each game can be different so I don't feel a need to memorize them. I meant to get an armory when you have started cloak and have a steady production of bansshes/hellions, so your next 100 gas should be invested in an armory. I'll update the builds later for the people who want supply counts I just don't feel its important enough. On January 05 2012 04:26 .Natsu wrote: Great guide. Just one question. How would you hold off a thor rush of a proxy fact. in your TvT opening? First I'd do is sac the scv up the ramp to check how many maries he should have. If that doesn't tip you off you should have a bunker up anyway. From there I usually don't send an scv and will most likely see the thor when it moves up the ramp. The bunker will only buy you time for your tank to get seige mode. From there you should have pulled ur scvs up the ramp and lifted your CC. If you can repair the bunker a bit thats a plus but if its backed up by marines don't even try. Start your marine concave and since your marines are in the main. You want to buy time to repair the wall off. A good thor push should be with scvs a hellion and a bunch of marines. Once your seige finishs you want to target marines first then scvs second. If he breaks the wall put your scvs on stop position and block the hole. You can't allow the thor to get up and hit your tank. About this time your second tank should pop out. If the scvs are mostly killed and so are the marines don't siege up the second tank and just attack the thor unseiged., it does more dps. Btw if anyone is interested in a live Q&A to answer some questions follow me @gamfvr on twitter | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
 Edit: I will only post it if you give me permission and I will definitely post that you wrote it. | ||
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gfever
United States180 Posts
On January 05 2012 09:25 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: Great guide, do you mind if I post this in the battle.net forums if I give you credit? I'd like everyone to be able to see this Edit: I will only post it if you give me permission and I will definitely post that you wrote it. Thats up to you but then you will have the burden to update it once in a while. | ||
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The_Unseen
France1923 Posts
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shishy
United States115 Posts
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Mr. Black
United States470 Posts
On January 02 2012 23:29 gfever wrote: --Macro Tips-- You should be able to go thur your macro cycles fairly quickly, somewhere around 2 seconds will suffice. If it takes longer than 2 seconds you are too slow. I can do them in 1 second. You want to aiming to slim down that number because macro is such a core part of the game that if you do slim it down imagine the amount of time you can use for micro and other things. Its also very important turn down your key press delay in your control panel keyboard settings. The way I was able to learn to hit these keys as quickly as I can was to go into notepad and just ferociously spam these. Aswell as keys that were hard to hit for me. Do my macro cycle over and over until it was smooth and quick. Until you get to a point where you don't even think about doing your cycles. You need to get to a point where you build a sort of cycle in your macro rotation. Here's an example of my thought process while macroing. 1) Micro 2) Look at supply. Do I need depots? if so, Location key > SCV > Depot > Look at minimap > Repeat 3) Look at resources. Gauge how much of each building I can produce. (Sometimes I skip this step if I am in a battle) 4) Go thur my buildings and produce units while looking at minimap. 5) Any mules to drop? 6) Look at minimap, repeat. Generally you want to do your macro cycle as quickly as possible and giving your full attention on micro. The more time you spend doing your macro cycle the less effective you are. This section is a bit unclear to me -- what are the keys you were spamming into notepad for practice? Do you mean selecting each production building and starting the next unit? Also, the key press delay makes me think that to build marines in late game, you select all rax and hold 'a' -- is that correct? I did that when I played zerg, but for some reason not for terran. | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
My point is that mech likes to utilize an advantage that it already held. You might disagree but from watching your replays or other mechers, the wins are mostly secured from strong advantage early on. Since you don't drop the same way as you do with bio, you aren't in a position to punish alot of expands or greedy play the same way that bio can. I feel that if he can pretty nonchalantly toss away a 200/200 army, you are pretty dead. Could provide a replay of a highmaster scenario where I felt this happened if you want, essentially I didn't do enough early, he tossed away a 200/200 army, I lost maybe half or what I had and he replenished in 2 minutes before attacking again, way before I could raise enough structures to be safe. Would love it if you respond, this is racking my brain | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
Anyway he's like to transition into alot of roaches and I only got like 10 siege tanks at that point. This post turned out a little messy. TLDR; unit composition for meching tvz. | ||
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gfever
United States180 Posts
I am spamming my location keys while trying to imagine I am dropping mules while hitting 4 for scvs 5 for marauders then holding a for marines then 6 for tanks/hellions, 7 for medivacs/vikings, Just basically going thru my macro cycle over and over and over until its kinda like muscle memory. Spamming keys from my default hand position that I am having a hard time hitting. @vBr There are some games where I don't really get any advantage from and just have good positioning and win in the late game. You should be able to trade pretty cost effectively. Even if he remaxs quickly. Remember out of battles you gain position, so you inch yourself in a good position to take a base or cut of reinforcements so the next batch of reinforcements can kill his other base or cover your counterattacks as you gain ground. If you take too much losses, its prob best to retreat behind walls and move out again when close to max. Depends on the situation tho, a lot of this requires many many many games to understand these situations and what to do. Reason why its so hard cuz mech is so deilcate like that. After a while you learn to build turrets in the right places and build buildings in the right spots so you need the least amount of turrets to protect your bases. In the lategame you should have atleast 20+ turret rings in your base. But overall, 1 thor and like 3 turrets can trade pretty dam cost effectively aganist 20+ mutas. You want to build turrets while your tanks and have 2 thors if he is continuing to have around 30+ mutas on the map. Should do around 3-4 turrets in each mineral line with a thor and about 3-4 turrets with your front army with 3 thors. Remember if he continues to muta, you can expand quicker than usual. I'll try to dig up some replays of TvZ, I havn't been playing much lately due to start of college term so if I get any new games I'll edit this post later with a replay pack. In the mean time you can PM your skype/vent/msn and we can chat there if you have any questions. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
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hyperknight
294 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On January 07 2012 03:11 JoeAWESOME wrote: If I ever switch to terran I'll make sure to read this guide! Good job! yes it is | ||
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Kon-Tiki
United States402 Posts
 but then I read it and I was like   | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10332 Posts
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