EPT[H/D] ZvZ Mutas - Page 3
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Letall
Sweden384 Posts
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NubbleST
United States86 Posts
http://drop.sc/78373 The idea here is to mitigate the map control he has with mutas by abusing the fact that he should have nothing to match your roach count for a brief window (without spines), so send your roaches out to his third and take your third as soon as you feel that you have enough hydras to hold it. The map control mutas give means nothing if his mutas are forced to follow your roaches around. If nothing else, this will buy time for enough hydras to make his investment into muta tech not worth the cost. As a side note, you'll notice I threw down blind spores. This is because I can't scout or read, but the two things that a 2-base Zerg can do to really screw over another 2-base Zerg with a later lair are mutas and burrowed roaches, both of which require spores anyways. So if I'm unsure of what my opponent is doing, I'll throw down the 2 blind spores just in case. Better Zergs may be able to scout/read better and not have to put blind spores, though. Another replay with the same idea (although this game could've easily gone either way and probably should've been a loss for me, but not because of muta) http://drop.sc/78379 I don't have a replay vs mass muta, but the key idea is essentially the same: buy enough time with roaches to defend. You'll have to adjust your spores, hydra count, infestor timing, and roach play based on what you see, though. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
On December 23 2011 18:23 NubbleST wrote: The idea here is to mitigate the map control he has with mutas by abusing the fact that he should have nothing to match your roach count for a brief window (without spines), so send your roaches out to his third and take your third as soon as you feel that you have enough hydras to hold it. The map control mutas give means nothing if his mutas are forced to follow your roaches around. If nothing else, this will buy time for enough hydras to make his investment into muta tech not worth the cost. Idea is pretty good, but you didn't take into account that he can also have lings, and kill all of your bases if you move out with the roaches | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you go mutas, you also won't have any lings for a while. You either get spines, or a third, but you can't get an army AND spines or army AND third or army and third, much less all 3. Best way to deal with 2 base muta is just grab your third asap, then spore it up. I would say 3 base muta is more 'solid' as a response as 2 base muta has map control and can take a third very quickly to not be behind someone who goes fast third roach/hydra and then ling/bane/muta army is better in straight up fight, but all in all 3 bases is better than 2. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
On December 14 2011 11:21 TheNessman wrote: this it would take like 2 full minutes for their first 7 mutas to kill 7 roaches. just bring a queen! what? this i have to see! do you have a replay? | ||
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
I'm not sure what's best atm as muta is very un-explored in ZvZ but if you do end up having a muta vs muta battle then think of the following: - If you think you are even on gas. Keep going muta. If you're constantly behind by 4-5 mutas then there's no real way to catch up as he will always have more mutas and therefor win when you finally engage! - Go for armor upgrade. It is proven that it is better to go for the armor upgrade as you ignore 1 damage from each glaive while upgrading + attack doesent add 1 damage to each individual glave bounce. - If you engage, dont clump up the mutas. Magic box as good as possible, Retreat with the injured mutas. - Make sure that he's not swapping to infestors are if he's doing that then you can die if he would catch all your mutas in a fungal. - When you engage muta vs muta. Take a pack of lings and place them under your mutas. Your lings will eat glaive bounces that would otherwise hit the mutas. (Your mutas take less damage as the lings are taking glaive bounces) If you however are in situation were you have RIH (Roach, infestor, hydra) then try to think of the following. - In the early game we all like to spread out overloards all over the map. If you see that he's going muta you know that you will lose ~5 overloards so make some in preperation for losing the overloards you have spread out all around the map. - You need good creep spread. You need to have good creep spread between your bases to have more mobile hydras and infestors. - Use a nydus! Most of the muta players will have a stacked defence at the front, keeping all their spinecrawlers, banelings, lings and/or roaches at the front. If you can sneak in a nydus at his third or main you will have an auto-win so it's a small risk for a high reward. - Spread out your infestors. If you have 2 infestors in your main, 2 infestors at the third you can more easily get a fungal on the muta pack. + If he attacks the third and see your army there he might not suspect that you have infestors in your main. - Get burrow. If you can burrow your infestors you can hide them and pop out and land the fungal that will win you the game. It's a cheap upgrade that can flat out win you the game. Also you can burrow your drones / queens if need be. - Get the upgrades going! As he's going muta you will and should be ahead in upgrades. If you keep upgrading well and fast you will and should have the better army (Depends if he's massing mutas or if he's just making ~7 to get map vision, either way. You should have the better army. - Be active with the scouting. Is he going mass muta or is he teching hard with a lot of spine crawlers. If he going staright for ultra? Is he going banelings to "counter" your hydras. Is he mass spining while teching to infestors? Depending on what he's doing you might be able to just go and kill him. If you can't kill him then it might be a good idea to tech go for a nydus. Again, it might win you the game right there... | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Try to make 8-10 Hydras for early Muta attacks, then stop Hydra production entirely and switch to Infestors. Infestors absolutely obliterate Mutas unless they are spread out unusually well. If you deal with a flock of his Mutas, push and reinforce your army with a few Hydras, Roaches, and Infestors and try to end the game; it'll almost always work out for you =D Infestors mean you give up map control, so it's bad to get infestors before 3 bases, or really, 4. Infestors also take a long time, meaning you are pretty vulnerable for a long time, or worse, you will be unable to apply any pressure since you can't really make roaches with them at the same time (1 infestor is 6 roaches, 5 infestors, 30 roaches wow, not to mention infestation pit and pathogen). As a muta goer, if you are going 2 base infestor, I just grab 4 bases, and then I have 20 mutas out when you finally get infestors out. My econ will be 4 bases against you just on 2, you finally grab your third, and before you can do anything with it, I'm maxed out. I think people don't realize Ling/Bane/Muta beats roach/hydra/infestor in a straight up fight. The only time roach/hydra/infestor works, is when infestors have finally pooled up enough energy and numbers - but by then, the muta player is maxed. Not to mention, the muta player could also just have his own infestors to counter your infestors, or even have ultralisks out. FG is just not that great against mutas practically, because of how mutas can spread, and how easy it is to snipe infestors and kill off energy with just 1-2 mutas. If you FG the mutas, then the banes get free reign to kill the hydras, and if you FG the banes, the mutas kill all the infestors, and then I remake the ling/bane. Straight up, infestors give up map control, and the muta player gets more bases while denying the roach player's bases. From there it's a simple math solution that the infestor player can never win - the muta player can simply switch to his own roach/infestor on 4 bases, vs your 2-3 bases, and win with sheer economy. I don't know what league you play at, but at the higher levels of play, a Zerg will at least be smart enough to stop harassing once infestors pop, or if they do, have the micro to make sure they don't get caught in a FG. Even better, they can use micro to send a single muta out to force you to waste a ton of energy just to get rid of a single muta, and in the process lose an infestor since they are very easy to snipe. At lower levels, macro isn't really utilized to it's full extent, but at the higher levels of play, a Muta player can simply just grab 2 more bases, deny your third, and then max out 200/200 with ling/bane/muta and steamroll the turtling player. You can't turtle as Zerg because there are no forcefields or siege tanks like T/P can do. Also, if you jsut make 8-10 hydras, I will overrun you by making more mutas. 20 mutas will kill al the hydras, and suddenly you have zero AA and you die. As soon as I see you make an infestation pit, which I will always see because mutas will see 100% of what you are doing in your base, I will make a ton of mutas, and ling/bane, and just push while you are waiting a good 4 minutes for the infestors. OR, I will take 2 more bases ahead of you, and simply go roach/infestor myself and do it better with more econ. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you engage, dont clump up the mutas. Magic box as good as possible, Retreat with the injured mutas. - Make sure that he's not swapping to infestors are if he's doing that then you can die if he would catch all your mutas in a fungal. - When you engage muta vs muta. Take a pack of lings and place them under your mutas. Your lings will eat glaive bounces that would otherwise hit the mutas. (Your mutas take less damage as the lings are taking glaive bounces) I think someone said that non-micro'd, a-move mutas is better than magic boxing or focus fire or trying to micro. I'm not sure of it, but someone else tested it and said this. You aren't supposed to micro the mutas, except in numbers of 5 v 5 where you may want to spread them. Magic box won't stop glaive wurm bounce. I believe the idea behind this is taking the time to micro or FF means your mutas are critically not doing a shot or two, which can lose you the game. "Stacking" vs non-stacked mutas, the non-stacked, non-micro'd mutas win. Secondly, and I know this for sure, putting lings under your mutas in a muta vs muta battle won't help at all. Glaive wurm bounce has an AI of it's own as well, and the bounce will target 'hostile' units first. In muta vs muta with lings, since lings can't hit the mutas, the glaive wurm bounce will only go towards the mutas first. it's like when you attack and there are mining/hold SCV's around - your units will attack hostile units in the area before attacking the SCV's. So. You know, you are wrong about that. Putting lings under mutas is not a good idea, as it won't do anything. The muta bounce will go for priority targets first. - Use a nydus! Most of the muta players will have a stacked defence at the front, keeping all their spinecrawlers, banelings, lings and/or roaches at the front. If you can sneak in a nydus at his third or main you will have an auto-win so it's a small risk for a high reward. Not necessarily disagree, I just wanted to comment on this. A really good cheese against someone going 2 base mutas by massing spines, is to go 2 base mass roach nydus. I always patrol a ling in my bases if I'm going mutas against someone going roaches because of how hard it counterfs it. I think just doing a nydus all-in is better than getting a nydus after hydras, as eventually the muta player will have the army strength to beat roach/hydra/infestor with their ling/bane/muta. | ||
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
On December 24 2011 09:32 Belial88 wrote: So. You know, you are wrong about that. Putting lings under mutas is not a good idea, as it won't do anything. The muta bounce will go for priority targets first. Well, I've only seen Vibe doing this and it made sense to me, haven't tested it or even done it myself as I recently saw it. I guess you find out fast if the lings take damage and therefore do something useful. As I said, only seen Vibe do this and I trust him untill I test it myself. And what I mean by muta vs muta is simply run in and hold pos around his muta, he you will have a concave if you can call it that and it feels like if you do it right. You will hold pos around his mutas and he will kill your mutas in the middle first and then the glaive wont bounce as well. Again, I dont encounter bit muta vs muta battles and I should do some testing but in theory it should be better. Another thing is that you are saying: Some guy have done some testing and as I've seen Vibe do it I trust him more so will believe that it works untill I've done some testing of my own | ||
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ThomasHobbes
United States197 Posts
I like Mutas in ZvZ, but I feel it's stronger to remax with roaches behind it. Muta into Roach / Infestor is absurdly powerful, and still gives you the mid-game map control of a muta flock. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
As I said, only seen Vibe do this and I trust him untill I test it myself. Again, I dont encounter bit muta vs muta battles and I should do some testing but in theory it should be better. Sorry, I hope you are not under the impression that I'm ragging on you. Or maybe I am, but I didn't mean to be so harsh. I think maybe I was just remembering how you posted something recently that I strongly disagreed with. Either way, I apologize. What you said wasn't stupid, and pros often do things that are wrong, despite being overwhelmingly better players and generally being much more knowledgeable. I'm just pretty sure that there isn't really any micro you can do in muta vs muta battles. I guess there's probably something out there you can do... but I don't know, I just know that clumping up, or focus firing, or magic boxing, isn't a good idea. The battle is sort of too fast for that. You need to be doing damage, any time spent getting hit while not firing really hurts you in a muta vs muta battle, more so than in other sorts of fights. I also know for sure that putting lings under mutas doesn't work. That's why, for example, if you have a muta vs muta battle over someone's mineral line, none of the drones will take any damage until all the mutas are dead. But this declines in effectiveness the more infestors he has. He doesn't need to get too many fungals on your muta flock, the important thing to do is to fungal the banelings, let the roaches deal with the lings, and use your hydras against the mutas. Worse comes to worse, you have to throw down some infested terrans to deal with whats left. By the time you have enough infestors, the muta player will have 2+ bases, and they will either have their own infestors, or be 200/200 against your ~140. You can't really Fg the banes also if they patrol micro to spread them out, or use multiple control groups or flanks. FG no longer 1 shots banes, so it doesn't work well. Even if you win the battle, the muta player will remax instantly and win the next one. I like Mutas in ZvZ, but I feel it's stronger to remax with roaches behind it. Muta into Roach / Infestor is absurdly powerful, and still gives you the mid-game map control of a muta flock. Sure, I agree with this. If you get mutas against someone who doesn't have mutas, you suddenly gain a lead. From there you can do whatever you want. But ling/bane/muta can definitely take on infestor based armies. They just max out on high econ too fast. You can't have enough infestors on 2 base, even 3 base. Even if you have enough infestors, that means no hydras, to which the mutas can wreck havoc with by sending single mutas to torture the infestors and then roll in with maxed army against 140 supply. | ||
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