EPTWhat do you feel is the solution to the muta problem and do you feel like mutas is the way to go now?
[H/D] ZvZ Mutas
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xDuckyx
United States28 Posts
What do you feel is the solution to the muta problem and do you feel like mutas is the way to go now? | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
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listal
United States228 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:46 Soluhwin wrote: Unless you have the lead early game, there is no way to hold off mutas and not be even more behind without your own. This is a bit of a catch-22, seeing as if you are behind, you have less mutas and lose anyways, but it's impossible to know what specifically you're doing wrong without a replay file. Read the strategy forum guidelines. since this is also a discussion thread, i figured i'd chime in on this response before analysis of the OP's to-be-uploaded replay starts. in that first sentence, are you saying that if you choose not to use mutas in zvz, you are behind against an opponent that does choose to go mutas? if that's the case, i'm very interested in your reasoning, because i think that's far from true. i'll defer to your response though. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:53 listal wrote: since this is also a discussion thread, i figured i'd chime in on this response before analysis of the OP's to-be-uploaded replay starts. in that first sentence, are you saying that if you choose not to use mutas in zvz, you are behind against an opponent that does choose to go mutas? if that's the case, i'm very interested in your reasoning, because i think that's far from true. i'll defer to your response though. Allow me to clarify: I don't think mutas are the absolute best thing to do in any circumstance ZvZ, but it is the absolute best if you're coming out of an early game lead for one reason or another. This is because of the absolute pace control that something as mobile as mutalisks provides, allowing you to turn the few drone lead into an expansion lead, into a double expansion lead, etc. Basically, if you know you can not-die to an opponent's pre-lair attack and not be behind in economy, go mutalisks. Because ZvZ is so aggressive, this is nearly impossible if the players are of even skill level. The point that I was trying to get across in my initial post was this: The OP is probably losing to mutalisks because of bad early game for one reason or another, the mutalisks are just how the opponent is turning a lead into a bigger lead into a win. | ||
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listal
United States228 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:59 Soluhwin wrote: Allow me to clarify: I don't think mutas are the absolute best thing to do in any circumstance ZvZ, but it is the absolute best if you're coming out of an early game lead for one reason or another. This is because of the absolute pace control that something as mobile as mutalisks provides, allowing you to turn the few drone lead into an expansion lead, into a double expansion lead, etc. Basically, if you know you can not-die to an opponent's pre-lair attack and not be behind in economy, go mutalisks. Because ZvZ is so aggressive, this is nearly impossible if the players are of even skill level. The point that I was trying to get across in my initial post was this: The OP is probably losing to mutalisks because of bad early game for one reason or another, the mutalisks are just how the opponent is turning a lead into a bigger lead into a win. ah, that's much more clear, and i agree with that. they're definitely a great way to capitalize on a lead in quite a few different ways  . you could opt to beat up overlords and mass roaches behind it as an alternative to expanding and playing out a long game. that's usually how i try to use them to capitalize on a decent early-game lead. | ||
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Vivax
21972 Posts
This also allows for sick creepspread, leaving the option for later hydras when you can afford the gas. | ||
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Isomer
United States186 Posts
If you can get a 3rd base and get this roach-hydra-infestor mixture up and defend the harassment you will be good. | ||
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terr13
United States298 Posts
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xDuckyx
United States28 Posts
On December 14 2011 10:22 terr13 wrote: Have you tried a Roach/Queen push on close positions? If you can hit them before they get a big flock of mutas, it's pretty easy to just take the game right away. Wouldnt mass spines be an issue? | ||
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FBH_Kreator
Canada30 Posts
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terr13
United States298 Posts
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
On December 14 2011 10:22 terr13 wrote: Have you tried a Roach/Queen push on close positions? If you can hit them before they get a big flock of mutas, it's pretty easy to just take the game right away. this it would take like 2 full minutes for their first 7 mutas to kill 7 roaches. just bring a queen! | ||
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Mannered
United States5 Posts
if you were going for a roach timing then do it right away, if not try and take a third and stay alive. if you sense muta and you have a lead then go muta yourself. otherwise extra couple queens and a spore over gas and minerals. you don't really need 2/2, better to get roach infestor and then add hydras. he shouldn't have a lot of upgrades because of the gas cost for muta. you should take third with infestors and ol creep for spores. try and harass his third and force banelings. you should focus on a critical mass of roaches w/ ~6 infestor. you should prioritize fungaling banelings and lings. if he doesn't take a third then you can mass up a lot of stuff. if he takes a third then he shouldn't have mass spines. maybe keep an infestor or 2 back in-case of counters. these are more general tips not a specific strategy. the other posts are right, your problem could be something to do with your early game do you have a replay? | ||
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xDuckyx
United States28 Posts
On December 14 2011 11:42 Mannered wrote: the way you view the issue is false. going muta shouldn't be default. biggest mistake against mutas is thinking you need to move out before the ball gets big enough. if you were going for a roach timing then do it right away, if not try and take a third and stay alive. if you sense muta and you have a lead then go muta yourself. otherwise extra couple queens and a spore over gas and minerals. you don't really need 2/2, better to get roach infestor and then add hydras. he shouldn't have a lot of upgrades because of the gas cost for muta. you should take third with infestors and ol creep for spores. try and harass his third and force banelings. you should focus on a critical mass of roaches w/ ~6 infestor. you should prioritize fungaling banelings and lings. if he doesn't take a third then you can mass up a lot of stuff. if he takes a third then he shouldn't have mass spines. maybe keep an infestor or 2 back in-case of counters. these are more general tips not a specific strategy. the other posts are right, your problem could be something to do with your early game do you have a replay? how would you harass his 3rd, with lings or roaches? Im wondering about that | ||
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Fallians
Canada242 Posts
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
i go 14 hatch 14 pool 14 gas (probably not optimal but its working. note also depends on map and no i dont send out a scouting drone. on close positions by air i always delay my pool for until after they drop their pool) first 50 gas on bane nest next 100 gas on speed (or banes if im against all in) get a spine crawler at my natural and 1 queen. build a few defensiv banes and try to get drones in once first queens done i get another queen. next spare 100 gas will go on lair. grab all my gases when oponent does or when i think im safe to survive. now i start spire and try to figur out how their tech is looking. i drop a spine every minute or so and make sure i have enough minerals to spend all my gas when spire finishes. l also get 16 drones on each bases minerals if i can. once mutas start production i drop my 3rd. heres where it gets interesting if he responds with hydras i imidiately get baneling speed and from here i can get more mutas and crush his push by a-moving lings and mutas and making the banes conect with the hydras. if he responds with infestors i try split the mutas up into groups and keep his infestor count low if he responds with mutas i respond with more mutas and try to utilise ling run bys and get my next 2 gases faster then him to be ableto produce more mutas. if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap. the advantage this build has over roach builds is the amount of spare gas which means you can always stay ahead of the tech. another strat ive seen but its really rare is hydra infestor (no roach) which does work well but i know that u have to be really gosu with splitting and fungling everywhere while i run in from flanks with ling bling muta. i hope i havnt missed any of the main advantages of mutas in ZvZ also another tip for muta play is to have alot of spines and alot of zerglings if the enemy goes for roach. you then set up half your lings somewhere outside your spinecrawlers line and the other half inside. this way you can trap all the roaches with the lings on top of the spines. edit: it also forces your oponent to wait until they have both hydras and infestors to take their 3rd by which time i will be taking my 4th and getting my own infestors and hive | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap. Stuff like this though.....really? How do you just stop a zerg from getting 3 infestors and 6 hydras, catching half your mutas due to burrow/randomness, and just wiping half your army off the field for free? Mutas vs zerg are not THAT amazingly effective due soley to infestors, and going banelings vs infestors is just lol-worthy. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On December 14 2011 11:51 Turbogangsta wrote: if he responds with hydras i imidiately get baneling speed and from here i can get more mutas and crush his push by a-moving lings and mutas and making the banes conect with the hydras. if he responds with infestors i try split the mutas up into groups and keep his infestor count low if he responds with mutas i respond with more mutas and try to utilise ling run bys and get my next 2 gases faster then him to be ableto produce more mutas. if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap. You're right, there ARE a lot of advantages to playing this style right now. Perhaps the best advantage is that it's relatively new. The pros haven't fleshed out a catch-all counter, so in the lower leagues zvz victories are skewed towards mutalisk users. The decision then falls on the defender to either practice a newer strategy or switch over. Most will switch because they'd rather not put in the losses to find out. To those who aren't switching, there are several interesting strategies I've seen on pro streams: -Ret has a nice hydra timing into a huge roach/hydra attack. -Spanishiwa takes the gasses like a muta player, but puts down an infestation pit instead of a spire for a lot of infestors when muta arrive. -Destiny gets roach hydra as well, takes a late third, and attacks at a nice window. There are several factors that are a must: -Spread creep to your third to allow for easier hydra access. -Don't overdo spore crawlers - each of them is a lost drone -Keep up on upgrades - should be even or ahead of muta player -Know your timings -Get burrow -Pull back overlords once you sniff out the strategy Since muta are a map control and harassment tool your opponent shouldn't make too many. Titan argued that 6 was ideal, but I've seen other pros go a lot more. If your opponent overcommits on muta then max on hydra/roach/infestor as fast as you can. Each muta represents two supply, which is two supply not spent on a roach, hydra, or infestor. Your opponent's army will be a lot less beefy. Should they engage fungal the mutas, plop down infested terrans, and micro/macro reinforcements. In the very least this will force a ton of units and static defense allowing you to drone up or expand to a fourth. This was all assuming they went muta into roach/infestor. If they went muta into ling/bling then you need to base your hydra numbers off their baneling numbers. Banelings and muta cost a LOT of gas, so they'll have a lot of one or fewer of both. Transitions from the muta style lead into heavy roach/infestor/BL, ling/bling/BL, or ling/bling/ultra. If the late-game units come out then you didn't do enough damage or waited too long. Essentially when choosing a ground composition versus an air composition you need to start defensive and then become aggressive. Helpful upgrades include burrow (great for infestors versus muta and healing roaches), tunneling claws, drop, or nydus. Mutas vs zerg are not THAT amazingly effective due soley to infestors, and going banelings vs infestors is just lol-worthy. This is correct, but in lower leagues and even through mid-high masters it's winning a lot. | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
On December 14 2011 13:32 Servius_Fulvius wrote: You're right, there ARE a lot of advantages to playing this style right now. Perhaps the best advantage is that it's relatively new. The pros haven't fleshed out a catch-all counter, so in the lower leagues zvz victories are skewed towards mutalisk users. The decision then falls on the defender to either practice a newer strategy or switch over. Most will switch because they'd rather not put in the losses to find out. To those who aren't switching, there are several interesting strategies I've seen on pro streams: -Ret has a nice hydra timing into a huge roach/hydra attack. -Spanishiwa takes the gasses like a muta player, but puts down an infestation pit instead of a spire for a lot of infestors when muta arrive. -Destiny gets roach hydra as well, takes a late third, and attacks at a nice window. There are several factors that are a must: -Spread creep to your third to allow for easier hydra access. -Don't overdo spore crawlers - each of them is a lost drone -Keep up on upgrades - should be even or ahead of muta player -Know your timings -Get burrow -Pull back overlords once you sniff out the strategy Since muta are a map control and harassment tool your opponent shouldn't make too many. Titan argued that 6 was ideal, but I've seen other pros go a lot more. If your opponent overcommits on muta then max on hydra/roach/infestor as fast as you can. Each muta represents two supply, which is two supply not spent on a roach, hydra, or infestor. Your opponent's army will be a lot less beefy. Should they engage fungal the mutas, plop down infested terrans, and micro/macro reinforcements. In the very least this will force a ton of units and static defense allowing you to drone up or expand to a fourth. This was all assuming they went muta into roach/infestor. If they went muta into ling/bling then you need to base your hydra numbers off their baneling numbers. Banelings and muta cost a LOT of gas, so they'll have a lot of one or fewer of both. Transitions from the muta style lead into heavy roach/infestor/BL, ling/bling/BL, or ling/bling/ultra. If the late-game units come out then you didn't do enough damage or waited too long. Essentially when choosing a ground composition versus an air composition you need to start defensive and then become aggressive. Helpful upgrades include burrow (great for infestors versus muta and healing roaches), tunneling claws, drop, or nydus. This is correct, but in lower leagues and even through mid-high masters it's winning a lot. how does ret have a hydra timing that wont be thwarted by ling baneling? does spanishiwas strat skip roaches? i can see this being viable because mutalisks take 133 seconds to pop from spire being dropped and infestors take 130 seconds from pit being dropped and upgrade researched. seems viable but he would have to skip roaches and have a very good read on oponent also against evenly skilled players i dont think destinies strat is that viable because lings baneling will kill all the hydras and some roaches and the mutas clean up the rest. also i wanted to note that sometimes i will only get around 8 mutas if i see they have both hydra and infestor pit and i go straight to ultra infestor. perhaps this leaves me vunerable but flanking with ling baneling and a couple of infestors at my spine crawler wall works for me | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
I don't see how commiting to melee upgrades, hive and ultras is better, it costs a lot and leaves a timing window where you can just die if they attack. | ||
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