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On December 14 2011 09:46 Soluhwin wrote:
Unless you have the lead early game, there is no way to hold off mutas and not be even more behind without your own. This is a bit of a catch-22, seeing as if you are behind, you have less mutas and lose anyways, but it's impossible to know what specifically you're doing wrong without a replay file. Read the strategy forum guidelines.
Slush had a huge lead over Nestea in both gas and muta count. Nestea won anyways going muta. Upgrades and good ling usage makes the muta vs muta wars much less than a math problem than you think.
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On December 14 2011 21:24 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 09:46 Soluhwin wrote:
Unless you have the lead early game, there is no way to hold off mutas and not be even more behind without your own. This is a bit of a catch-22, seeing as if you are behind, you have less mutas and lose anyways, but it's impossible to know what specifically you're doing wrong without a replay file. Read the strategy forum guidelines. Slush had a huge lead over Nestea in both gas and muta count. Nestea won anyways going muta. Upgrades and good ling usage makes the muta vs muta wars much less than a math problem than you think.
On top of that you can always get some corruptors and go more for a more defensive, slower but stronger muta flock.
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Why would you go Mutalisks? Well you can be decently safe from all ins with banelings and enough spinecrawlers while droning up like a mad man. You can deny a third and get ahead against a roach opponent with just 14 mutalisks, then transitioning into roaches.
You have an advantage immediately against people that slowly trickle in more and more drones because they won't be able to do a meaningful counter attack. And you can basically deny a third, while you can insta-saturate yours with a macro hatchery and enough injects to just go bonkers defensive right after.
I feel that going for 2 base mutalisk into quick 3rd base will be the future of ZvZ, slowly transitioning into infestors and trying to catch as many of the opponents mutalisks as possible. The only reason to not go for Mutalisks is that you have a ton of amazing 2 base timing attacks that straight up kill mutalisk plays, but any reactive player should be able to react to that and win.
Counter attacks and harassment are one of the strongest traits of a Mutalisk player over any Roach player that simply does not have those after muta's are out. You controll the pace of the game and it is really great against certain play because it simply gives you such a huge drone lead. So I would say on some maps its definitely advized to go for 2 base Mutalisk into 3 base because you will be able to defend and snipe out overlords nicely.
I'm writing a guide about this kind of play just now, so anyone that wants to know the ins and outs of this kind of style from me will have to wait just a bit. But yes, I feel that going Mutalisk is a very viable and perhaps futuristic standard of ZvZ.
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Hi, dude.
I think replays teach more than any guide, so, I decided to submit some zvz against muta bling I played yesterday.
and an epic one
hope you enjoy...
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On December 14 2011 21:17 NeonFox wrote:
Do people really stay on ling bling muta until ultras? If he doesnt go mutas himself, scout, if you see hydras get baneling speed, if you see infestors get a roach warren down. If you play mutas you should always have a better economy then your opponent, most of the time you can just roll him over when you transition back into roaches and later hydras.
I don't see how commiting to melee upgrades, hive and ultras is better, it costs a lot and leaves a timing window where you can just die if they attack.
I agree here.
Ling / Bling / Muta is a very strong mid-game composition in ZvZ, but it declines in effectiveness the longer the game goes in play. Rising Infestor counts essentially negate mutalisk play, and the player must switch into ling / roach / muta or some other roach-dependent play.
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Basically mutas give map control. With map control you can take economy lead and flank enemy armies when they come out. With mobility you can also attack two places at the same time. Why go roach hydra if:
1. It's damn gas expensive
2. No map vision
3. Slow off creep
4. Hard to defend bases
If you're behind, muta ling is the easiest way to get even again. All depends on harrassment with mutas and lings. So there is really no reason not to go mutaling.
Blade555 already wrote a guide on mutalingbling in zvz. Basically it's the same as zvt but with more chance of dying early game.
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On December 14 2011 20:46 Turbogangsta wrote:
how does ret have a hydra timing that wont be thwarted by ling baneling?
I think it was MLG orlando where slush went mutas into roach/infestor and ret went balls to the wall roach/hydra. I've been trying to catch his stream to see other transitions, particularly when the opponent goes ling/bling, but his stream crashes every time I find him online.
does spanishiwas strat skip roaches? i can see this being viable because mutalisks take 133 seconds to pop from spire being dropped and infestors take 130 seconds from pit being dropped and upgrade researched. seems viable but he would have to skip roaches and have a very good read on oponent
In the game I watched he was going muta himself until he scouted his opponent going muta. I don't remember offhand if he skipped roach warren. I think he had it, but he didn't have many roaches.
As for reading the opponent, scouting a muta build is way easier than say, an all-in. This is especially true in lower leagues. Even if they don't make a bunch of zerglings a spine crawler wall or lack of roaches at 9-10 minutes is usually a dead giveaway.
[quote[also against evenly skilled players i dont think destinies strat is that viable because lings baneling will kill all the hydras and some roaches and the mutas clean up the rest.[/quote]
I suppose this would depend on positioning. I saw Destiny get a number of infestors. Those stop zerglings and banelings in their tracks. Positioning hydra inside a roach ball would also prevent the annihilation by banelings.
When it comes down to it, it takes far less skill to pull off a muta strategy than it is to defend, so I expect a majority of lower leaguers to switch as well as a lot of pros who can work it to perfection.
As for me, the only thing keeping my butt is platinum is zvz macro (muta strategy or not). I'll probably switch strategies eventually, but for now adapting to the meta game shift has become a good build-refining exercise. I imagine protoss players feel the same way with mutas invading zvz.
Now that I think about it, what zerg matchups aren't primarily a mutalisk midgame?
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To deal with mutas you can either go mutas yourself (which isn't really reactionary) or you can go roach queen hydra (infestors cost too much gas). When it's muta vs muta just make sure to get the armor upgrade over the attack upgrade and try to get the highest gas income possible to overpower his mutacount, the guy with more mutas simply wins the game (given you're on even upgrades). Do a lot of ling runbies and make sure to not lose your expansions, keep map control.
If you play a ground based style I recommend doing roach queen hydra. The way I'm doing it at the moment is to get +2 +2 and then push across the map (for god's sake bring at least 1 overseer, you don't wanna lose all your hydras to baneling landmines). The ultimate goal would be to get 3 bases up, but 2 can also be fine. The hard thing is to deal with the mutas when you just got your first hydras out, you can't really split em and you never know if he's getting only 12 or so mutas or like 25. The queen production is really necessary when you're only on 2 base, since you gas income will be so low and the mineral to gas ratio hydras got simply make you float a lot of minerals. I always get a macro hatchery and keep constantly producing queens outta all of em. In most scenarios you will be (close to being) maxed when your +2 +2 finishes. Push across the map with your roach hydra queen force and bring an overseer. Be ready to split your hydras vs banelings and don't hesitate to transfuse your queens (2-2 queens with transfuses wreck mutas and banelings if he mishits). Your army should be so beefy that there's no way for him to kill unless you mess up and get all your AA killed - don't let that happen and it's gg, reforce with roaches preferably and hydras if necessary.
This style is not possible on very far spawn locations though. On maps like TD cross you HAVE to go mutas.
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Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:42 Mannered wrote:
the way you view the issue is false. going muta shouldn't be default. biggest mistake against mutas is thinking you need to move out before the ball gets big enough.
if you were going for a roach timing then do it right away, if not try and take a third and stay alive. if you sense muta and you have a lead then go muta yourself. otherwise extra couple queens and a spore over gas and minerals. you don't really need 2/2, better to get roach infestor and then add hydras. he shouldn't have a lot of upgrades because of the gas cost for muta. you should take third with infestors and ol creep for spores. try and harass his third and force banelings. you should focus on a critical mass of roaches w/ ~6 infestor. you should prioritize fungaling banelings and lings. if he doesn't take a third then you can mass up a lot of stuff. if he takes a third then he shouldn't have mass spines. maybe keep an infestor or 2 back in-case of counters.
these are more general tips not a specific strategy. the other posts are right, your problem could be something to do with your early game do you have a replay? how would you harass his 3rd, with lings or roaches? Im wondering about that
lings, roaches too slow. just wait for mutas to be poking you and watch out for banelings. also borrowed infestor or drop infestor can do worlds of damage, just don't commit a lot of infestors in case they get cought. using his actions also means he won't attack you or he makes mistakes with mutas. make him struggle to take bases. the longer the games go on, the weaker his mutas become unless he continues to do damage which should be minimal with infestors out.
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I just switched to Zerg recently and I'm only playing at the high-platinum-ish level right now, but I've gotten pretty comfy with ZvZ and everyone likes to go muta, especially when they think they're behind. I like to 14h 14p and get out a few roaches and then stick on roaches for a while, so people tend to feel happy going muta. I've had a lot of success getting a fast lair and evo anyway for roach speed, overlord speed, and +1, which leaves me in a good situation to deal with mutas. Staying a little aggressive helps because if I attack with roaches while they're getting mutas out, I have a lot of warning time to throw down a couple spores and a few extra queens (not just to defend, but in case I lose a couple I have backups). From there, hydra/roach is quite good. You need roughly half as many hydras as mutas as he has to push out and 50 percent or a little more than 50% roaches in the mix and there's not a lot that they can really do to keep you contained. Just don't overcommit to hydras (as zerglings, banelings, and pure roach armies own them) and you'll be fine. If he gives up on mutas, a 50/50 or 60/40 roach to hydra army beats a pure roach army anyday, and roaches in numbers are obviously way better than lings. It's a balancing act, but assuming you're not behind on economy and you're not caught completely with your pants down (no lair or evo complete, etc.) you should be fine in at least 50% of the games where your opponent goes muta (it won't be an auto loss at least- you still have to play well to win).
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On December 14 2011 12:14 Sm3agol wrote:Take this with a grain of slat, but I've seen many Z's go muta vs Destiny after gaining an early lead(because Destiny's early ZvZ is horribad), and lose badly in the end. All Destiny does is drop an infestor pit and hydra den while getting as many queens as he can, building up to a 200/200 roach/hydra/infestor army that basically makes muta worthless. The infestors make banelings useless, plus make muta harass basically live on a knife's edge, due to how badly a couple of infestors + hydras can decimate a muta ball for no losses. Show nested quote +if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap. Stuff like this though.....really? How do you just stop a zerg from getting 3 infestors and 6 hydras, catching half your mutas due to burrow/randomness, and just wiping half your army off the field for free? Mutas vs zerg are not THAT amazingly effective due soley to infestors, and going banelings vs infestors is just lol-worthy.
Infestors are actually quite pathetic if you do some decent Muta splits. It takes 4 Fungals to kill a Mutalisk, and spreading them into groups of 2's or 3's makes Infestors extremely cost inefficient.
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On December 16 2011 17:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:14 Sm3agol wrote:Take this with a grain of slat, but I've seen many Z's go muta vs Destiny after gaining an early lead(because Destiny's early ZvZ is horribad), and lose badly in the end. All Destiny does is drop an infestor pit and hydra den while getting as many queens as he can, building up to a 200/200 roach/hydra/infestor army that basically makes muta worthless. The infestors make banelings useless, plus make muta harass basically live on a knife's edge, due to how badly a couple of infestors + hydras can decimate a muta ball for no losses. if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap. Stuff like this though.....really? How do you just stop a zerg from getting 3 infestors and 6 hydras, catching half your mutas due to burrow/randomness, and just wiping half your army off the field for free? Mutas vs zerg are not THAT amazingly effective due soley to infestors, and going banelings vs infestors is just lol-worthy. Infestors are actually quite pathetic if you do some decent Muta splits. It takes 4 Fungals to kill a Mutalisk, and spreading them into groups of 2's or 3's makes Infestors extremely cost inefficient.
i think the main point of infestors is to significantly shut down the harassment otions of the mutalisks. having the mutalisks split up makes spores alot better and makes the damage per second of the mutas as a whole alot lower.
when i use mutas the main reason is to gain an economic and tech lead unless they dont respond correctly
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I go roach hydra infestor for zvz and have almost no problems with mutas (I'm in mid-high diamond). I open with roaches, expand, get a lair up by 8-8:30 and get an infestation pit right away + an overseer scout. If I see a spire I throw down three spore crawlers in each base and get my 3rd up before the mutas pop. I find that if you have spore crawlers and spend most of your gas on infestors + upgrades you can drone like mad and there's not a lot they can do about it since their army composition is easily countered by infestors. After I get my 3rd up I'll get a hydra den and get some hydras to compliment the infestors then get a max army and push out and there's generally not a lot they can do. I don't know how much of this is good because I'm only diamond but it works well for me.
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Slush had a huge lead over Nestea in both gas and muta count. Nestea won anyways going muta. Upgrades and good ling usage makes the muta vs muta wars much less than a math problem than you think.
There were 3 reasons why Slush lost.
1. Nestea took his third wayyy before slush. While Slush did kill Nestea's third at one point, he didn't take the opportunity to expand himself, and so it really didn't matter that he killed Nestea's third if he didn't get one himself.
2. Nestea went lair later than Slush. This meant that Nestea's economy was much more robust. Generally, the person who goes lair has a much stronger econ. As long as you can defend - which is exactly what Nestea did - you will come out way ahead of the opponent when your mutas come out.
3. Slush went +1 weapons instead of +1 armor, while Nestea went +1 armor instead. This was a huuuuge mistake, and this alone probably cost Slush the game most dramatically. There's a huge difference between the two, and it was a completely blunder of Slush to go +1 weapons in muta vs muta.
Slush should have won, but made a lot of huge blunders in that game. None the less, it was an amazingly played game, but basically Slush rushed mutas, had little econ to show for it, and when Nestea held it off, he was way ahead in the game. Think of it sort of as Nestea going hatch first against 10 pool, and then holding off all the aggression and naturally coming out ahead in the end.
On top of that you can always get some corruptors and go more for a more defensive, slower but stronger muta flock.
In small numbers corruptors do okay as defensively, but it's actually a huge waste of money to go for corruptors instead of mutas. Once you get about 10+ mutas, they just will roll over corruptors for cost, as corruptors don't do much damage but tank a lot, while mutas deal a lot. When you get a flock of mutas going, they sort of overcome the corruptor armor. Don't ever make corruptors instead of mutas! Only time to really make corruptors is maybe if you have a higher econ but the opponent went faster lair, and your spire pops but the opponents mutas are wrecking your base?
I feel that going for 2 base mutalisk into quick 3rd base will be the future of ZvZ, slowly transitioning into infestors and trying to catch as many of the opponents mutalisks as possible. The only reason to not go for Mutalisks is that you have a ton of amazing 2 base timing attacks that straight up kill mutalisk plays, but any reactive player should be able to react to that and win.
Chaos, I liked your write-up, but I disagree.
I think that fast third before lair, will be the future of ZvZ.
From there, the game can really go in 2 different directions.
1. Both players went quick third. Mutas.
2. One player displays aggression - either made some units before third, goes lair before third, or the early game just had a lot of roaches involved - so it will become roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. Infestors take wayyyy too long to come out, so it'll become roach/hydra vs roach/hydra, and you can't use spines to defend a third against roaches. So you must get hydras and roaches of your own.
Ling / Bling / Muta is a very strong mid-game composition in ZvZ, but it declines in effectiveness the longer the game goes in play. Rising Infestor counts essentially negate mutalisk play, and the player must switch into ling / roach / muta or some other roach-dependent play.
A muta player will reach 200/200 before someone turtling on 3 bases gets a decent infestor energy amount up.
The thing with mutas is that it's actually a super strong composition, as opposed to muta play in the other match-ups.
It's kind of micro intensive, so I don't expect diamond or lower to use mutas, but at the higher level of play, the muta player will just max out on 4+ bases against a 3 base turtle. If you go infestors, I will send a single mutalisk to harass your infestors and snipe them or force you to waste energy. If you don't make any hydras, I make 30+ mutas, and just roll in with split or magic boxed mutas with 200/200 ling/muta and just absolutely destroy your ~140 supply army. If you have hydras, I have speedbanes, not hard.
Ling/Bane/Muta will just roll any infestor army for being wayyy too small, and any hydra army with banelings and for not having infestors. You will just straight up die. If you FG my mutas, my banelings will connect (or i will have too many mutas for you to FG). It's not exactly cost efficient to FG 4 mutas for an infestors life.
It's not like T or P where you can rely on wall ins, siege tanks, forcefields, warp ins. There is nothing stopping a 200/200 maxed zerg army from rolling into your front door and killing everything.
I'm only playing at the high-platinum-ish level right now, but I've gotten pretty comfy with ZvZ and everyone likes to go muta, especially when they think they're behind. I like to 14h 14p and get out a few roaches and then stick on roaches for a while, so people tend to feel happy going muta. I've had a lot of success getting a fast lair and evo anyway for roach speed, overlord speed, and +1
yea... what you are saying is only viable at platinum or diamond. Going early game roaches, using early game roaches, that's gg in higher level play. Fast lair? Kills your econ to go lair before third, much less 'fast lair'. Why are you rushing lair anyways? You realize rushing 5 hydras isn't going to do anything right? You would be way better off droning up. You are aware going lair cuts your drone count/supply by about 20 right?
Good luck with your gaqmes, but I don't think what you are saying is viable past diamond.
i think the main point of infestors is to significantly shut down the harassment otions of the mutalisks. having the mutalisks split up makes spores alot better and makes the damage per second of the mutas as a whole alot lower.
If you go infestors against mutas, you aren't going to have any army at all, and zero map control. I will be on 4 bases to your 2, and just destroy you with 200/200 ling/muta repeatedly crashing into you.
. I open with roaches, expand, get a lair up by 8-8:30 and get an infestation pit right away + an overseer scout. If I see a spire I throw down three spore crawlers in each base and get my 3rd up before the mutas pop. I find that if you have spore crawlers and spend most of your gas on infestors + upgrades you can drone like mad and there's not a lot they can do about it since their army composition is easily countered by infestors. After I get my 3rd up I'll get a hydra den and get some hydras to compliment the infestors then get a max army and push out and there's generally not a lot they can do. I don't know how much of this is good because I'm only diamond but it works well for me.
I don't think this would work in masters. Opening with roaches really stunts your econ, no third base hurts your econ, infestation on 2 base means you won't have any army or map control, so I'll just be on 4 bases by the time your first infestor pops. You aren't going to be able to get lair, infestation pit, and third, no way before mutas can force you to cancel over and over.
Anyways, if I saw someone going 2 base roach/infestor, I would likely just go 3 base mass roach, maybe roach/hydra, instead of mutas.
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in all lower leagues mutas is the way to go. if you dont, you are lucky or your opponent not that bright.
mutas bring absolut map control, you are safe against another muta zerg (include some corruptor, u will need them anyway) and you are on the very best zerg tech (broodlords).
if you dont go muta, u have to invest in spores = less larvae, less income, useless if the enemy air units only prevent any expansion and not attack.
you possibly have to include an earlier evo chamber in your build than normal, you can build more queens = more "blocked" supply in the following battle, useless against ground units(midgame)
you will lose most of your overlords on the map
hyrdas are slow &light, banelings do extra dmg to light
it 's way more expensive to "prevent" mutas on a casual level than go mutas on your own.
i did around 40 zvz in the last months and everytime i tried the non-muta-way, i lost map control, was unable to move out & expand further, lost the game...even when i scouted a spire and was set with 2 spores and min. 2 queens at each base,my investment was so huge i was miles behind.
i dont like mutas, but there is no choice...like the old 4gate for pvp
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^ I'd say in higher levels mutas are the way to go, as in the lower levels macro is so bad and no ones takes a third before lair.
At the lower levels, I think it's fine if you just make 8 mutas, then just go straight into roach/infestor.
I guess at the lower levels taking a third before lair won't be possible due to supply blocks, not making workers, too many units, not good enough scouting... but you should.
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Thanks for the informative posts belial. I have been attempting to go muta for a while, but I've always kind of rushed muta, instead of getting a third and strong economy first. The trouble I always have is with roach timings, how do you deal with those? Your own roach force? Lings and spines?
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On December 14 2011 10:11 Cattivik wrote:
I've seen TLO just massing queens to deal with it, don't even bother going hydras since the banelings will pose a threat to them.After fending off the first attacks and having a sufficient amount of queens, roaches and maybe a few infestors, try to nydus close to his nat and attack.
This also allows for sick creepspread, leaving the option for later hydras when you can afford the gas.
You can hit a sick timing with 8queens, a lot of +1 roachs and outright kill him :D
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Thanks for the informative posts belial. I have been attempting to go muta for a while, but I've always kind of rushed muta, instead of getting a third and strong economy first. The trouble I always have is with roach timings, how do you deal with those? Your own roach force? Lings and spines?
I really, really think 3 base is better than 2 base, and if you go 3 base, you can't really go mutas against 2 base lair roach because you can no longer go spines. Obviously, on non-ladder maps like calm before the storm or crevasse, sure, 3 base muta using spines is the way to go, but most maps don't have that free third.
The first thing you need to do is confirm the opponent is making lair or not. You need to rule out hatch tech roach/ling all-ins. You can do this with speedling check-ups (you need to be sending a speedling into their base after about 30 supply every 10 supply, really!).
- Is he taking more gas? Roach/ling all-ins only use 1 gas, so if he takes any other gas, either gas at his natural, or gas at his main, you can rule it out. You should always have an overlord by their natural to see their gas and drone count at it.
- Drone count. By seeing a saturated natural, you can rule out a roach/ling all-in. If he has very few drones there, it's obviously a roach/ling all-in.
- Sac an overlord around 50 supply. If he is morphing a lair or not, pretty straightforward. Obviously, you are sac'ing lings every 10 supply to check his natural and army count, so you'll know if he's making a lair or not there too.
- Spines. If he makes any spines, obviously, it means he's being defensive and doesn't plan to make units. Obviously, a hatch first making a spine first thing is one thing, but if you're poking with lings and see he's adding spines then, then that means he's going to be droning up.
- You should have an overlord by their third. I send my 4th overlord to the opponent's third, and eventually park a ling there too (i actually patrol the ling to make sure it's not a hidden 3rd). If he takes a third, then he's obviously not going 2 base hatch tech roach/ling all-in.
- Zergling pokes. Every 10 supply, poke a zergling or three into his base, try to even run into his main. If you see a bunch of roach/ling coming out, pretty obvious! When you run the ling around, watch what pops out of the eggs. If it's anything but drones that's coming out before the 50-60 supply mark, then he's obviously doing something tricky!
- Overlord nearby. Always have an overlord nearby their base, watching their gas, whatever. Just float it nearby and see what's popping out of the eggs. If it's a bunch of roaches, that's a tell.
If he's doing a roach/ling all-in, just make 3-5 spines, and go 2 base lair. Hold, then you win the game basically. Don't go lair too fast or you'll die obviously, making a lair before 50 supply against a roach/ling all-in is basically asking to lose the game.
Making a lair before 50 supply in general is a bad idea. Going lair before about 60 supply will actually cut your supply by about 20! And Zerg isn't protoss, we can't make 2 DT's or 2 void rays or 2 colossi to end the game. What are you going to do with fast lair - make 2 speedroaches? Make 2 mutas? Generally, whoever goes lair faster in ZvZ is going to be the one who loses, because they will be behind in econ. However, of course, if you go lair too late, you will lose, as you will simply be overrun by increasing muta or speedroach numbers.
So now that you have confirmed he isn't roach/ling all-inning, there are 2 ways to play out the game.
1. 2 base muta vs 2 base lair. If you saw the opponent is on 2 bases, made a roach warren or any roaches, and you know he's going lair (saw more gas, more drones, saw lair, you poked up his ramp and so no mass ling/roach super early on) and not doing a roach/ling all-in on hatch tech, you just need to mass spines. The opponent is essentially roach all-inning you, so you can make 10 spines, hold his 2 base roach all-in, and then grab a third.
However, I don't think this is the best idea, because the opponent can see your massing spines and obviously doing 2 base muta (no roach/roach warren, 4 gas, lair, etc), so he can just take a third and hold off on the roaches. Anyways, any competent 2 base muta goer will hold any mass speed roach by having enough spines, although on maps like XNC it takes a ridiculous amount of spines, probably enough to even be behind.
Hence, why I would say 2 base muta is actually a bad way to play.
2. If the opponent is going 2 base lair, you take your third. Generally, zerg has 2 choices - go third, or go lair. If you see the opponent going 2 base lair, just grab your third, and get the lair about 10-20 supply later than he did.
If he's doing 2 base roach (he made roaches, roach warren, etc, you'll even see with an overseer, or ling pokes, really), just go 3 base roach/hydra. You'll need to cut drone production once you've thrown down your third, and you may even be behind in drones, but if you make sure to saturate properly, your 12+12+12 economy will be even with his 25+25 economy, and allows you to get much further ahead quicker when you get the chance to drone up. Use slow roaches and hydras to defend against his 2 base lair roach. Once you've held, just either push back to deny his third, or get infestors on 3 base and win.
You can't really go 3 base muta against 2 base mass roach. Generally, these sorts of games turn into roach/hydra vs roach/hydra. If you see the opponent go 2 base muta, just defend with spores on 3 base and then go mutas with a much, much stronger economy. Roach/Hydra on 3 base is questionable against 2 base muta, especially on larger maps, as you can't really move out until infestors, and roach/hydra/infestor takes a very long time, even against a 2 base muta player, so I wouldn't recommend roach/hydra/infestor on 3 base vs 2 base muta - however, 3 base is always better than 2 base, so whatever.
Finally, rushing mutas is never a good idea. Getting a quick 40 supply 2 base lair is horrible, the opponent just takes a third and then can get his own mutas. Also, if you are rushing lair on 40 supply (or worse, even earlier) you won't have any economy, especially since you'll need to mass spines too, and so you'll pop, what, maybe 5 mutas. 5 mutas gets laughed by the 2 queens the opponent will have.
Mutas are not a cheese, they are for macro play. Rushing mutas is a really really bad idea, rushing lair in general is bad. YOu should never really make lair before 50 supply, the only time I recommend getting a lair before 60 supply, is if you see the opponent rush lair, as if you make lair about 20 supply past the opponent, you can eventually get overrun by them. You should be making your lair around 50-80 supply, making it earlier is just suicide. Also, roach/ling all-ins pretty much kill anyone who makes lair before 60 supply, so keep a mind and make sure the opponent makes the lair first. Generally, you want to make the lair after the opponent, as it means you will have a stronger economy.
Anyways, yea. Hatch tech roach/ling is an entirely separate issue, you shouldn't really have lair tech against it, and 2 base lair roach is dealt with by going 3 base later lair roach/hydra. Just can't defend a third with spines. Fast third roach/hydra > 2 base muta.
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Try to make 8-10 Hydras for early Muta attacks, then stop Hydra production entirely and switch to Infestors. Infestors absolutely obliterate Mutas unless they are spread out unusually well. If you deal with a flock of his Mutas, push and reinforce your army with a few Hydras, Roaches, and Infestors and try to end the game; it'll almost always work out for you =D
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