[H/D] ZvZ Mutas

On December 14 2011 09:46 Soluhwin wrote:
Unless you have the lead early game, there is no way to hold off mutas and not be even more behind without your own. This is a bit of a catch-22, seeing as if you are behind, you have less mutas and lose anyways, but it's impossible to know what specifically you're doing wrong without a replay file. Read the strategy forum guidelines.

On December 14 2011 09:59 Soluhwin wrote:

Allow me to clarify: I don't think mutas are the absolute best thing to do in any circumstance ZvZ, but it is the absolute best if you're coming out of an early game lead for one reason or another. This is because of the absolute pace control that something as mobile as mutalisks provides, allowing you to turn the few drone lead into an expansion lead, into a double expansion lead, etc. Basically, if you know you can not-die to an opponent's pre-lair attack and not be behind in economy, go mutalisks. Because ZvZ is so aggressive, this is nearly impossible if the players are of even skill level.

The point that I was trying to get across in my initial post was this: The OP is probably losing to mutalisks because of bad early game for one reason or another, the mutalisks are just how the opponent is turning a lead into a bigger lead into a win.

On December 14 2011 10:22 terr13 wrote:
Have you tried a Roach/Queen push on close positions? If you can hit them before they get a big flock of mutas, it's pretty easy to just take the game right away.

On December 14 2011 10:22 terr13 wrote:
Have you tried a Roach/Queen push on close positions? If you can hit them before they get a big flock of mutas, it's pretty easy to just take the game right away.

On December 14 2011 11:42 Mannered wrote:
the way you view the issue is false. going muta shouldn't be default. biggest mistake against mutas is thinking you need to move out before the ball gets big enough.

if you were going for a roach timing then do it right away, if not try and take a third and stay alive. if you sense muta and you have a lead then go muta yourself. otherwise extra couple queens and a spore over gas and minerals. you don't really need 2/2, better to get roach infestor and then add hydras. he shouldn't have a lot of upgrades because of the gas cost for muta. you should take third with infestors and ol creep for spores. try and harass his third and force banelings. you should focus on a critical mass of roaches w/ ~6 infestor. you should prioritize fungaling banelings and lings. if he doesn't take a third then you can mass up a lot of stuff. if he takes a third then he shouldn't have mass spines. maybe keep an infestor or 2 back in-case of counters.

these are more general tips not a specific strategy. the other posts are right, your problem could be something to do with your early game do you have a replay?

if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap.

On December 14 2011 11:51 Turbogangsta wrote:
if he responds with hydras i imidiately get baneling speed and from here i can get more mutas and crush his push by a-moving lings and mutas and making the banes conect with the hydras.
if he responds with infestors i try split the mutas up into groups and keep his infestor count low
if he responds with mutas i respond with more mutas and try to utilise ling run bys and get my next 2 gases faster then him to be ableto produce more mutas.
if the zerg manages to get both infestors and hydras (which means ive done something wrong) i will get my own infestor tech and get ultras asap.

Mutas vs zerg are not THAT amazingly effective due soley to infestors, and going banelings vs infestors is just lol-worthy.

On December 14 2011 13:32 Servius_Fulvius wrote:


You're right, there ARE a lot of advantages to playing this style right now.

Perhaps the best advantage is that it's relatively new. The pros haven't fleshed out a catch-all counter, so in the lower leagues zvz victories are skewed towards mutalisk users. The decision then falls on the defender to either practice a newer strategy or switch over. Most will switch because they'd rather not put in the losses to find out.

To those who aren't switching, there are several interesting strategies I've seen on pro streams:
-Ret has a nice hydra timing into a huge roach/hydra attack.
-Spanishiwa takes the gasses like a muta player, but puts down an infestation pit instead of a spire for a lot of infestors when muta arrive.
-Destiny gets roach hydra as well, takes a late third, and attacks at a nice window.

There are several factors that are a must:
-Spread creep to your third to allow for easier hydra access.
-Don't overdo spore crawlers - each of them is a lost drone
-Keep up on upgrades - should be even or ahead of muta player
-Know your timings
-Get burrow
-Pull back overlords once you sniff out the strategy

Since muta are a map control and harassment tool your opponent shouldn't make too many. Titan argued that 6 was ideal, but I've seen other pros go a lot more. If your opponent overcommits on muta then max on hydra/roach/infestor as fast as you can. Each muta represents two supply, which is two supply not spent on a roach, hydra, or infestor. Your opponent's army will be a lot less beefy. Should they engage fungal the mutas, plop down infested terrans, and micro/macro reinforcements. In the very least this will force a ton of units and static defense allowing you to drone up or expand to a fourth.

This was all assuming they went muta into roach/infestor. If they went muta into ling/bling then you need to base your hydra numbers off their baneling numbers. Banelings and muta cost a LOT of gas, so they'll have a lot of one or fewer of both.

Transitions from the muta style lead into heavy roach/infestor/BL, ling/bling/BL, or ling/bling/ultra. If the late-game units come out then you didn't do enough damage or waited too long. Essentially when choosing a ground composition versus an air composition you need to start defensive and then become aggressive.

Helpful upgrades include burrow (great for infestors versus muta and healing roaches), tunneling claws, drop, or nydus.



This is correct, but in lower leagues and even through mid-high masters it's winning a lot.

On December 14 2011 09:46 Soluhwin wrote:
Unless you have the lead early game, there is no way to hold off mutas and not be even more behind without your own. This is a bit of a catch-22, seeing as if you are behind, you have less mutas and lose anyways, but it's impossible to know what specifically you're doing wrong without a replay file. Read the strategy forum guidelines.

On December 14 2011 21:24 Micket wrote:

Slush had a huge lead over Nestea in both gas and muta count. Nestea won anyways going muta. Upgrades and good ling usage makes the muta vs muta wars much less than a math problem than you think.

On December 14 2011 21:17 NeonFox wrote:
Do people really stay on ling bling muta until ultras? If he doesnt go mutas himself, scout, if you see hydras get baneling speed, if you see infestors get a roach warren down. If you play mutas you should always have a better economy then your opponent, most of the time you can just roll him over when you transition back into roaches and later hydras.
I don't see how commiting to melee upgrades, hive and ultras is better, it costs a lot and leaves a timing window where you can just die if they attack.

On December 14 2011 20:46 Turbogangsta wrote:
how does ret have a hydra timing that wont be thwarted by ling baneling?

does spanishiwas strat skip roaches? i can see this being viable because mutalisks take 133 seconds to pop from spire being dropped and infestors take 130 seconds from pit being dropped and upgrade researched. seems viable but he would have to skip roaches and have a very good read on oponent

how would you harass his 3rd, with lings or roaches? Im wondering about that

On December 14 2011 12:14 Sm3agol wrote:
Take this with a grain of slat, but I've seen many Z's go muta vs Destiny after gaining an early lead(because Destiny's early ZvZ is horribad), and lose badly in the end. All Destiny does is drop an infestor pit and hydra den while getting as many queens as he can, building up to a 200/200 roach/hydra/infestor army that basically makes muta worthless. The infestors make banelings useless, plus make muta harass basically live on a knife's edge, due to how badly a couple of infestors + hydras can decimate a muta ball for no losses.




Stuff like this though.....really? How do you just stop a zerg from getting 3 infestors and 6 hydras, catching half your mutas due to burrow/randomness, and just wiping half your army off the field for free? Mutas vs zerg are not THAT amazingly effective due soley to infestors, and going banelings vs infestors is just lol-worthy.

On December 16 2011 17:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:

Infestors are actually quite pathetic if you do some decent Muta splits. It takes 4 Fungals to kill a Mutalisk, and spreading them into groups of 2's or 3's makes Infestors extremely cost inefficient.

Slush had a huge lead over Nestea in both gas and muta count. Nestea won anyways going muta. Upgrades and good ling usage makes the muta vs muta wars much less than a math problem than you think.

On top of that you can always get some corruptors and go more for a more defensive, slower but stronger muta flock.

I feel that going for 2 base mutalisk into quick 3rd base will be the future of ZvZ, slowly transitioning into infestors and trying to catch as many of the opponents mutalisks as possible. The only reason to not go for Mutalisks is that you have a ton of amazing 2 base timing attacks that straight up kill mutalisk plays, but any reactive player should be able to react to that and win.

Ling / Bling / Muta is a very strong mid-game composition in ZvZ, but it declines in effectiveness the longer the game goes in play. Rising Infestor counts essentially negate mutalisk play, and the player must switch into ling / roach / muta or some other roach-dependent play.

I'm only playing at the high-platinum-ish level right now, but I've gotten pretty comfy with ZvZ and everyone likes to go muta, especially when they think they're behind. I like to 14h 14p and get out a few roaches and then stick on roaches for a while, so people tend to feel happy going muta. I've had a lot of success getting a fast lair and evo anyway for roach speed, overlord speed, and +1

i think the main point of infestors is to significantly shut down the harassment otions of the mutalisks. having the mutalisks split up makes spores alot better and makes the damage per second of the mutas as a whole alot lower.

. I open with roaches, expand, get a lair up by 8-8:30 and get an infestation pit right away + an overseer scout. If I see a spire I throw down three spore crawlers in each base and get my 3rd up before the mutas pop. I find that if you have spore crawlers and spend most of your gas on infestors + upgrades you can drone like mad and there's not a lot they can do about it since their army composition is easily countered by infestors. After I get my 3rd up I'll get a hydra den and get some hydras to compliment the infestors then get a max army and push out and there's generally not a lot they can do. I don't know how much of this is good because I'm only diamond but it works well for me.

On December 14 2011 10:11 Cattivik wrote:
I've seen TLO just massing queens to deal with it, don't even bother going hydras since the banelings will pose a threat to them.After fending off the first attacks and having a sufficient amount of queens, roaches and maybe a few infestors, try to nydus close to his nat and attack.

This also allows for sick creepspread, leaving the option for later hydras when you can afford the gas.

Thanks for the informative posts belial. I have been attempting to go muta for a while, but I've always kind of rushed muta, instead of getting a third and strong economy first. The trouble I always have is with roach timings, how do you deal with those? Your own roach force? Lings and spines?

On December 23 2011 18:23 NubbleST wrote:

The idea here is to mitigate the map control he has with mutas by abusing the fact that he should have nothing to match your roach count for a brief window (without spines), so send your roaches out to his third and take your third as soon as you feel that you have enough hydras to hold it. The map control mutas give means nothing if his mutas are forced to follow your roaches around. If nothing else, this will buy time for enough hydras to make his investment into muta tech not worth the cost.

On December 14 2011 11:21 TheNessman wrote:

this

it would take like 2 full minutes for their first 7 mutas to kill 7 roaches. just bring a queen!

Try to make 8-10 Hydras for early Muta attacks, then stop Hydra production entirely and switch to Infestors. Infestors absolutely obliterate Mutas unless they are spread out unusually well. If you deal with a flock of his Mutas, push and reinforce your army with a few Hydras, Roaches, and Infestors and try to end the game; it'll almost always work out for you =D

If you engage, dont clump up the mutas. Magic box as good as possible, Retreat with the injured mutas.

- Make sure that he's not swapping to infestors are if he's doing that then you can die if he would catch all your mutas in a fungal.

- When you engage muta vs muta. Take a pack of lings and place them under your mutas. Your lings will eat glaive bounces that would otherwise hit the mutas. (Your mutas take less damage as the lings are taking glaive bounces)

- Use a nydus! Most of the muta players will have a stacked defence at the front, keeping all their spinecrawlers, banelings, lings and/or roaches at the front. If you can sneak in a nydus at his third or main you will have an auto-win so it's a small risk for a high reward.

On December 24 2011 09:32 Belial88 wrote:





So. You know, you are wrong about that. Putting lings under mutas is not a good idea, as it won't do anything. The muta bounce will go for priority targets first.

As I said, only seen Vibe do this and I trust him untill I test it myself.

Again, I dont encounter bit muta vs muta battles and I should do some testing but in theory it should be better.

But this declines in effectiveness the more infestors he has. He doesn't need to get too many fungals on your muta flock, the important thing to do is to fungal the banelings, let the roaches deal with the lings, and use your hydras against the mutas. Worse comes to worse, you have to throw down some infested terrans to deal with whats left.

I like Mutas in ZvZ, but I feel it's stronger to remax with roaches behind it. Muta into Roach / Infestor is absurdly powerful, and still gives you the mid-game map control of a muta flock.