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A middle of the road approach is better:
I disagree. Queens injecting is more cost effective, but only Hatcheries is more supply effective. In the lategame, cost efficiency with minerals is not relevant, but efficient use of your supply is
Okay, if you arent efficient with your minerals you wont be able to remax well.
You need 11 hatcheries to have 33 larva, which is 3300 minerals.
You can just keep a 150 mineral queen and inject up to 8 times if it reaches full energy and boom, you have 32 larva.
Having four roaches will not win or lose you a game ^.^ Roaches are actually just terrible in the late game anyway. its all about infestor brood ling corruptor in ZvP and ZvT.
Again I would really like to see some replays of this to see how many hatcheries you get. The way I see it, you need about 25 or so. And even then all those 25 hatcheries will only generate 75 larva and once you use that, it will take forever to rebuild.
Granted you should build about 5 macro hatcheries once you bank a lot of minerals but even then you should still use queens or else it is just flat out inefficient. 5 hatcheries with a queen to each will generate more larva than 30 hatcheries all game. Its just 10 supply anyway, 5 roaches or 2 brood lords will not be the deciding factor in winning a game, your remax will be. And with that being said you cant remax well =/
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late game units like ultralisks or broodlords are very costly. The larva isn't much of a problem if you mix some of them with the cheap units. And as some have mentioned before, a hatch has a limit of 19 larva with a queen. It's better to have more queens, less hatches when you're maxed.
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This is an interesting idea. I'll be trying it out in my next few games and see how it feels. I'm not so interested in the whole supply efficiency deal, at most I have 10 supply tied up in queens, but consider getting that 10 supply and the doing one of the mass Spore Crawler deals and grabbing another 10 or so supply and then canceling the Spore's. 20 supply could be a lot. Yet, what I am most interested in is not having to keep up injects. If I can reach an acceptable Larvae generation rate then I'd be happy.
Also this brings up the idea of having several Hatcheries in one place. You get this whole supply efficiency deal, but on top of this you can produce most of your units from one spot. I mean how many of you have produced 50 roaches against someone just to have them trickle in from a few sides and get slaughtered one at a time. Fact is you could micro this, but thats a fairly APM intense situation, it would be nice to just produce a ton of units from one spot.
Or say you keep only one Queen on top of this Hatchery area, you could keep injects up on a single Hatchery till it maxes out in Larvae then move to the next, or say you don't keep up with the inject, well you could blow 100 energy in a second if you have 4 Hatcheries to inject. This could be a way of getting past a few hurdles while giving you a similar type of macro mechanic to spammed Chrono or Mules, use all the energy when you need to.
If nothing else this idea here is interesting and brings up so cool questions. Heck maybe it could even change a bit of the pace in the late game. I'd suggest to everyone to at least give it a shot, modify a bit, maybe we could find something that wasn't there before.
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On December 11 2011 03:05 Lebzetu wrote:Show nested quote +A middle of the road approach is better:
I disagree. Queens injecting is more cost effective, but only Hatcheries is more supply effective. In the lategame, cost efficiency with minerals is not relevant, but efficient use of your supply is Okay, if you arent efficient with your minerals you wont be able to remax well. You need 11 hatcheries to have 33 larva, which is 3300 minerals. You can just keep a 150 mineral queen and inject up to 8 times if it reaches full energy and boom, you have 32 larva. Having four roaches will not win or lose you a game ^.^ Roaches are actually just terrible in the late game anyway. its all about infestor brood ling corruptor in ZvP and ZvT. Again I would really like to see some replays of this to see how many hatcheries you get. The way I see it, you need about 25 or so. And even then all those 25 hatcheries will only generate 75 larva and once you use that, it will take forever to rebuild. Granted you should build about 5 macro hatcheries once you bank a lot of minerals but even then you should still use queens or else it is just flat out inefficient. 5 hatcheries with a queen to each will generate more larva than 30 hatcheries all game. Its just 10 supply anyway, 5 roaches or 2 brood lords will not be the deciding factor in winning a game, your remax will be. And with that being said you cant remax well =/
terribly wrong math. 5 hatches + 5 queens ~12/13 hatches. if you inject perfectly. in practice it will be aequivalent to ~10 hatches. anyway you'll need some queens lategame in order to stockpile larvae.
a hatch creates 4 larvae per minute. an injected hatch produces 10 larvae, provided you inject perfectly and you can spend that larvae immediately. if you are stockpiling larvae, natural hatch production stops, so an injected hatch is at 6 larvae per minute, which is only 50% more compared to the 4 produced by a hatch. having up to 3 macro hatches (+expansions) can be useful.
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On December 11 2011 03:05 Lebzetu wrote:Show nested quote +A middle of the road approach is better:
I disagree. Queens injecting is more cost effective, but only Hatcheries is more supply effective. In the lategame, cost efficiency with minerals is not relevant, but efficient use of your supply is Okay, if you arent efficient with your minerals you wont be able to remax well. You need 11 hatcheries to have 33 larva, which is 3300 minerals. You can just keep a 150 mineral queen and inject up to 8 times if it reaches full energy and boom, you have 32 larva. Having four roaches will not win or lose you a game ^.^ Roaches are actually just terrible in the late game anyway. its all about infestor brood ling corruptor in ZvP and ZvT. Again I would really like to see some replays of this to see how many hatcheries you get. The way I see it, you need about 25 or so. And even then all those 25 hatcheries will only generate 75 larva and once you use that, it will take forever to rebuild. Granted you should build about 5 macro hatcheries once you bank a lot of minerals but even then you should still use queens or else it is just flat out inefficient. 5 hatcheries with a queen to each will generate more larva than 30 hatcheries all game. Its just 10 supply anyway, 5 roaches or 2 brood lords will not be the deciding factor in winning a game, your remax will be. And with that being said you cant remax well =/
Why do people post just to make up a bunch of bullshit. 25 and 30 hatcheries produce ridiculous amounts of larva.
Have some simple arithmetic:
A hatchery will generate 1 larva every 15 game seconds.
A queen inject will generate 1 larva every 10 game seconds.
Therefor, if you are spending all your larva as they are created, the following is true:
2 hatch, 2 queen = 5 hatch
3 hatch, 3 queen < 8 hatch
4 hatch, 4 queen = 10 hatch
5 hatch, 5 queen < 13 hatch
6 hatch, 6 queen = 15 hatch
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I feel as you get better as a player queens just become more and more efficient than this hatchery style. You start hitting injects more often, and get better at deflecting drops.
The only significant issue left is the supply problem, but honestly the best Zergs tend to not go above 5 queens, with 4 being the average. That's 8-10 supply and you're advocating making enough Hatches to equalise that production? That's likely above 1500 minerals, I can't see that being worthwhile at all.
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since a queen basically is worth 1.2 ultralisk or conters an amount of 300 energy worth of snipe in an actual engagement i thought it was common sense to take them along your army lategame. But normally you don't need the injects if you use an army composition that needs queens.
Early game queens are essential to be save and hold up aggression or airplay, so you have to get them anyway. If drops kill your queens you are doing something wrong, since its super easy to position her so a drop can't get her, if your reaction is good though.
If you attack lategame you have larva stacked up so all you need to do is not forget to rebuild queens first. Of course this is all really depends on the situation.
But i wouldn't get more then 2 or 3 macro hatches on the cross position of your opponent (unimportant where you did start unless you feel ahead). that way you can lose your main np or all your other expansions, without getting your production cut.
Its just another point of zerg macro, alot are happy with just injecting and building hatches at every base (5 base zergs often don't even mine close patches from the far of hatches, they are just there with 3 larva and rally 3 units ea into their death in a reproduction cicle).
Oh and i don't see a supply problem there for zerg, more for the other races as a queen is basically 2 supply eco and 2 supply combat, but thats why there are warp gates and mules. Even though alot of people hate on the macro mechanics, i think they are well balanced out supply wise and you are pretty screwed if you don't use them right lategame.
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You might not agree with all of the OP's conclusions, but it is an interesting topic. Some of the 'facts' are suspicious however:
Queen-spawned larva aren't free. They cost 150min, 2supply, and 3actions. Hatchery-spawned larva cost 350min, 0supply, and 0actions. Perfect injects are 1 larva/10seconds, but even at 1 larva/15 seconds a queen still doubles the larva production of a hatchery for less than half the cost.
BUT
[edit]Just tested Xalorian's claim and you're correct. Would this remove the validity of my 1-queen-per-2-hatchery suggestion? Regardless of the shortcomings of my personal play it would seem unavoidable to accumulate energy on your queens, but effectively dumping excess queen energy on a macro hatchery seems like it would be a one-time thing, at least until more injects were missed/delayed...[/edit]
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On December 11 2011 05:43 DoorKicker wrote:
Queens generate energy faster than they can spend it injecting a single hatchery alone.
Only if you miss injects. Actually, it's the opposite, a queen generate energy a bit slower than they can spend it on a single hatchery.
If you hit your inject perfectly, you will have to wait two full seconds before you can inject again with a single queen when the larvas pop. (2 SC2 second, wich is actually between 1 and 2 IRL second.)
But eh, it's pretty much impossible to always hit your injects perfectly, so you are indeed going to get a bunch of stockpilled energy on your queens.
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On December 11 2011 03:05 Lebzetu wrote:
You can just keep a 150 mineral queen and inject up to 8 times if it reaches full energy and boom, you have 32 larva.
Why do you even have a Queen with full energy? Either you missed a ton of injects or you were maxed out and had 19 Larva at all your hatches or you were saving up your energy for Transfuse. In the last case, you don't want to use this energy to inject, since you saved it for Transfusing, the other cases are you messing up or you not doing anything with your army and your Queen for a long time.
Therefore I think your 32 Larva at the same time aren't a sign of a superior larva production, but rather a sign of a way too passive playstyle.
On December 11 2011 03:05 Lebzetu wrote:
Having four roaches will not win or lose you a game ^.^ Roaches are actually just terrible in the late game anyway. its all about infestor brood ling corruptor in ZvP and ZvT.
Well, if it is all about Infestor brood ling corruptor, what about 16 more Lings? You need a big meatshield under your Broodlords or else every good opponent will just run up and focus fire them into oblivion. Everything which makes this meatshield look bigger keeps your enemy away, even if it is just something like 8 supply more.
On December 11 2011 03:05 Lebzetu wrote:
Okay, if you arent efficient with your minerals you wont be able to remax well.
See the remaxing section near the end of the OP.
Regarding replays, I already stated, that I don't have any. I am not playing on a high enough level to provide good material. Also, I think the effects of this aren't very visible in replays, you probably will see more Hatcheries and less injecting Queens. Also, maybe a better than usual Creep Spread and Transfuses utilised in Battles. Not having to inject is something you will definately notice when playing, but not as much when watching a replay.
Looking at it again, this is comparable to Terrans who build a lot of Orbitals in the lategame to substitute SCVs for Mules in order to free up more supply for their army.
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EPT
