Insane A.I.

Redn3ck

United States18 Posts

December 06 2011 15:35 GMT

So I'm a new sc2 player, I've played bw casually for years. (BGH, Ums)

Thats just a bit of background for my question. For the last week I have been playing the insane AI trying to work out builds and what not. Is this screwing me over for when I do play a ladder game? or is it helping me? I mean all the timings are different and what not in a ladder game I assume? I ask because I played 1 'practice' 1;1 ladder game and I got killed lol...

Sorry I forgot to put Q in the title.

tymt

Sweden293 Posts

December 06 2011 15:44 GMT

Yea it's kind of a waste imo. Check the forums or/and liquipedia for builds and practice them in 1v1s. If you want to practice without someone trying to kill you there is a custom map called yabot which lets you play alone and just reset the game without having to load the map all over again.

shishy

United States115 Posts

December 06 2011 15:48 GMT

Insane AI will just 1 base you with extra minerals and whatnot so it's completely different from a ladder game because you don't start on equal footing with the opponent.

Just play 1:1 practices or find/making a friend or just dive into ladder :D

Mordanis

United States893 Posts

December 06 2011 15:48 GMT

I think playing against the A.I., on any difficulty, is suboptimal. I personally played exclusively vs. AI for a month or so before I ever even played a 1v1 (I honestly don't know why -_-) and I placed in silver. After a couple of weeks I realized that zealot rushing in every matchup was suboptimal, and so after watching some Day9 dailies, I started to play some awful version of "standard". I literally didn't even know that 4 gating was an aggressive build, I just kind of threw down 4 gates and never warped in from them. The point is that the AI only does 1 base agression builds, and so my understanding of the game was totally wrong. Honestly my best advice is just to play a bunch of games on the ladder spending all of your focus on probe production or something like that. Focusing on one area of play is in my mind the most efficient way to improve. Other than that there are several guides about improving on TL, so when you get confused you can either look in one of those or ask more questions. Welcome to the world of competitive StarCraft!

Malloy

Canada166 Posts

December 06 2011 15:49 GMT

The computer will never perform risky tactics that are game-ending in 1v1, like moving banelings to the workers, or droping effectively, etc. Also, the computer is stupid...you can use hit and run tactics and force their army where you want it.

Playing against people is the best way to learn, in my opinion. Second best way; watchin replays and commentary, or things like Day9 / Mr. Bitter / Other's coachings.

Redn3ck

United States18 Posts

December 06 2011 15:50 GMT

On December 07 2011 00:44 tymt wrote:
Yea it's kind of a waste imo. Check the forums or/and liquipedia for builds and practice them in 1v1s. If you want to practice without someone trying to kill you there is a custom map called yabot which lets you play alone and just reset the game without having to load the map all over again.

Thanks for the posts guys. I've almost been I guess scared to start a ladder game I'm not sure why..But I'm gonna start playing 1;1. I also didn't know about yabot Thanks for the tip on that.

Tikan

France42 Posts

December 06 2011 15:50 GMT

AI (any level) is ok to test and refine a B.O. ; but since every match against AI is led by timing pushes you have to defend (always the same, depending race/cpu lvl) you wont have a good idea on how to play your build properly and you wont have a response for everything a human can (will) do that cpu dont. You cant like, face a zerg on ladder, and go 'ok so 9 roach are going to attack at 7:15 I have to be prepared".
So Ai is ok to test/refine BOs at a certain point, but it certainly dont train you to what you're gonna face while playing ladder.

forsooth

United States3648 Posts

December 06 2011 15:53 GMT

I found it more useful to practice against medium/hard AI just to get accustomed to the mechanics/builds/unit compositions of a race (as well as some of the maps) before I moved on to playing on the ladder. AI and humans are completely different from each other in terms of what they'll actually do, so playing the AI as a means to learn any sort of strategy is a waste of time.

decerto

244 Posts

December 06 2011 15:54 GMT

Playing v the very easy ai to learn a build order off by heart is fine, I played around 100 games v the ai before i laddered just to learn a build order for each match up and it worked wonders, i got diamond(which is at then highest league) in a lot less time then i would if i just laddered without any pre learned builds. I still a lot of the times practice a new build v the ai to learn the timings nowadays. But anything beyond that is pointless imo. Maybe make sure you can hold any push v the very hard ai might be beneficial too, but the insane ai cheats afaik so its pretty pointless

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

December 06 2011 16:09 GMT

#10

Insane AI cheats hardcore, so it's not worth playing against, tactics which work against it will generally be very bad against players. Very Hard AI doesn't cheat, but almost always does the same boring tactics, 1-2 1base pushes, get exp, push again, repeat.

If you want to train vs a computer, get the Green Tea AI. GTAI is, on medium settings, FAR more difficult than normal blizzard AI on very hard, it doesn't cheat (except some maphack), and it has like 30 builds per race pre-programmed, so it can do anything from early expand to dt rush. For example, if you can deal with a GTAI 4 gate, you're in a good position to beat gold/platinum players doing it. (Well, it's a bad example since GTAI for some reason doesn't do proxy pylons, but other than that.)

jisora

United States65 Posts

December 06 2011 16:12 GMT

#11

As others have said, a new player can improve many elements of his/her game by practicing against the AI. But you want to play one level down from Insane. Because the Insane AI "cheats" (faster resources and lower building costs) the timings will be all screwed up. The Very Hard AI will do some well-executed one-base timing pushes, and will even expand given enough time, but you will never see many strategies that are common on the ladder.

@Tobberoth. Our posts crossed. Thanks for the comment on GTAI.

meadbert

United States681 Posts

December 06 2011 17:09 GMT

#12

For what you are doing I recommend Green Tea AI.

Search for GTAI and you should see some maps.

That lets you select which build your opponent does so you can practice against all the cheeses.

I believe Hard and Very Hard cheat with extra minerals, but I could be wrong.

Also I think all of the GTAIs map hack so do not be surprised if they do not bother scouting you.

UmiNotsuki

United States633 Posts

December 06 2011 17:29 GMT

#13

On December 07 2011 01:12 jisora wrote:
As others have said, a new player can improve many elements of his/her game by practicing against the AI. But you want to play one level down from Insane. Because the Insane AI "cheats" (faster resources and lower building costs) the timings will be all screwed up. The Very Hard AI will do some well-executed one-base timing pushes, and will even expand given enough time, but you will never see many strategies that are common on the ladder.

@Tobberoth. Our posts crossed. Thanks for the comment on GTAI.

Very Hard AI cheats as well, just not as much. It has slightly improved income rates (not as much as Insane) and maphacks (you'll notice it's timing attack will go straight to your base even though it never scouted you.) It's also not quite as clean as Insane in that it misses injects sometimes, etc.

The only AI that will actually do timing pushes that are even feasible in a real 1v1 ladder match is simply the Hard AI. Unfortunately, it's really, really bad; I have a friend in bronze league who walks right through it every game.

I suggest just laddering. You will lose, and that's okay. I personally lost all five of my initial placement matches and got bottom-of-the-rung bronze league when I started playing. One thing I do know is that I've improved a lot through just laddering and laddering and laddering, and here I am playing at a high diamond level.

Just practice against people and improvement will come naturally

bLooD.

Germany470 Posts

December 06 2011 17:38 GMT

#14

Play ladder and learn not to care if you loose.

Redn3ck

United States18 Posts

December 06 2011 17:38 GMT

#15

So I played 2 games anyone got tips for me?
http://drop.sc/69460
http://drop.sc/69467

Couple things I saw my macro slips when I attack. Which leads to to much money. I also win both games. These might not be the best for people to give me tips on? Should I play till I lose?

Willzzz

United Kingdom774 Posts

December 06 2011 17:53 GMT

#16

Right, watched the replays, you totally owned both of them, keep playing until you get some decent opponents and then post some closer replays. I'll add a few comments:

It is normal to get tanks vs zerg, they will help protect your marines from banelings and other nasty things.
If you get to their mineral line focus drones, don't kill a useless tech building (hydra den).
You will need to expand faster once you start playing better people, although I suspect you can 1 base for quite some time yet.

It is OK to post replays where you win but still need advice, however these replays just wren't even close, it was entirely one sided both games.

JonB

Sweden325 Posts

December 06 2011 18:04 GMT

#17

don't play against the A.I if you aren't practicing refining a build is my opinion. And there are maps for training build orders too.. Just play the ladder i think (:

Redn3ck

United States18 Posts

December 06 2011 18:06 GMT

#18

On December 07 2011 02:53 Willzzz wrote:
Right, watched the replays, you totally owned both of them, keep playing until you get some decent opponents and then post some closer replays. I'll add a few comments:

It is normal to get tanks vs zerg, they will help protect your marines from banelings and other nasty things.
If you get to their mineral line focus drones, don't kill a useless tech building (hydra den).
You will need to expand faster once you start playing better people, although I suspect you can 1 base for quite some time yet.

It is OK to post replays where you win but still need advice, however these replays just wren't even close, it was entirely one sided both games.

Thanks very much for your advice.

I have another question. I don't know any of the maps which ones should i be down voting? are there any that are just bad for terran?

Trashie

Norway131 Posts

December 06 2011 18:27 GMT

#19

On December 07 2011 03:06 Redn3ck wrote:
I have another question. I don't know any of the maps which ones should i be down voting? are there any that are just bad for terran?

You will only get biased answers. Even if there is a bad map for a certain race, only the best of the best will abuse it properly. So just play whatever you want. If you dislike a map, downvote it.

hersimp

Norway40 Posts

December 06 2011 22:22 GMT

#20

insane is a waste, since it cheats... if you look at the resource graph, he starts with more minerals, and also mine more.
VH is the most realistic opponent I think. Its very predictable, but its decent to test expand builds f.eks. To see if your build can hold off their push etc

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