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Hi Guys I think that alot of people are struggling with this MU right now so I hope this helps. I apologize in advance that this guide isn't going to be awesomely formatted with pics etc because its already going to take alot of my time to write this for you, so please just try to enjoy the content. Also I am not writing this guide for bronze-golds who don't know what a 1rax FE is, so if you don't know the standard terms, you may find this guide confusing.
Introduction
The idea of this build is to provide you with the know how to avoid the early pitfalls of the matchup and go into a macro TvP feeling that you actually know whats going on.
Openings
In the current metagame protoss either 1 base or open pretty greedy, and you don't want to fall too far behind, but you don't want to die easily either. This means if you are going to open for macro, you CAN'T afford to get supply blocked or miss your production cycles so really concentrate hard in the early game.
The 1Rax naked FE
The best economical opening favoured by pros. It is best on maps with good chokes on your natural such as shak plat and tal darim alter. You need to be able to hold your natural with just a bunker early in the game since otherwise you may die to 2gate stalker pressure. Many pros do this even on riskier maps and keep the second CC in their base longer until they get a large enough force that they are able to move out more safely. If your marine micro is not good, I would discourage you from doing this build on maps such as XC and metal. This build makes for the strongest 10minute timing attacks since your 2nd CC has the most time to increase your economy and your future raxes get up the fastest. After you have your chosen number of raxes you immediately want to get 2 gas so you can get stim started ASAP.
The 1Rax tech lab FE
Good for economy and generally safe except will result in loss to voidray all in. You open standard 12rax 13 refinery, make one marine, make mauarder, conc, another mauarder and then you can make a poke. The goal of this poke is to kill any stalkers/zealots/probes in the field. If you build your barracks and 2 depots at the wall and make the probe run away with your marine, you can often trick protoss into thinking your doing only marines and catch a free scouting stalker with this poke. Once you reach his base you want to kill anything on the low ground, and poke up with the marine going first becuase if he has sentries up there he will FF and you will lose everything. If you see only a zealot/stalker up there, run up, snipe the stalker first with stutter steping away from the zealot and then kill the zealot after. If its anything more then that just go back to base. If he is doing a FE, kill a pylon if you can, but don't bother trying to kill the nexus because you can't, just try to get a pylon or 1 unit and go home. If you like you can take a scv with this poke and send it up instead of the marine. Keep in mind that this build is weak to voidray all in since you have few marines early in the game.
The 2Rax Opening
I see this opening done wrong all the time. You open 12rax 13 refinery, get a marine then a reactor and a second rax can go up before depot because you will not be building marines while the reactor is building. You can actually also do it 12rax 14refinery as long as you build the refinery exactly as 14pops. Then you build marines from the reactor and you get a tech lab on the second rax right away, get conc and a maurader and do a small push with one or two mauraders. This is pretty good against fast expand, you might be able to kill a FE if protoss is greedy. You can take 1 scv off gas after you build the reactor to get a slightly faster expansion. Its often better to try to micro so mauarders are in front taking the damage, but if you lose all your mauraders you will be in trouble without slow. In very low unit count situations, it is best to stutter step around zealots in a circle and pick off the stalkers and then kill the zealots when they have no support (2 or less zealots) otherwise, you should stutter step backwards picking off the zealots and then rush forwards to get the other units. Pulling a few scvs with this push if your sure its an early expansion will help deny and you might even want to build bunkers if the nexus finishes. You can actually use these bunkers to set up a contain if you see the protoss has very few units. However protoss can bust you very easily with an immortal so don't expect to hold this position long and don't sacrifice a ton of units trying to do so.
The important thing to take away from these openings is that you don't want to lose your units, your trying to do small damage where you can, but its important not to lose your units cheaply since the protoss has very strong early game timings that you will need all your units to defend.
What to do after your CC goes down
The 3Rax Teching Build
You have probably seen alot of pros favour this build. After your CC you want to immediately go up to 3 barracks. You want to get your second gas shorty after you put down the 3rd rax. Then you want to get your factory immediately and put down a starport and a reactor on the factory for the switch and 2 fast medivacs. You also want to get +1 atk and possible +1 armor started quickly in this build since you have more gas. Later on once you know its not a 1base all-in I like to build 2 reactors but most pros prefer 2 tech labs as mauarders stand up to colossus alot better. I think more marines really helps defend against any sort of 6gate or immortal pressure that protoss might be applying to you. You don't want to get the reactors early if you scout 2 gas because they take too long to build and you won't have enough units to hold a void ray all in.
Pros:
Drops and earlier tech. This build is for people with good multitasking. If you arent using your early medivacs for aggression you probably don't want to be using this build. It also helps you get more vikigns to defend from collosus timings but its not required to defend them.
Cons:
Less bio. This build is hard to defend 6gate with. If you get hit by a 6gate and you havnt been really on top of your macro and stims not finished yet, you are probably gonna die. You are also more vunerable to later immortal all-ins.
4rax - slower tech
This is my current build of choice. after CC you immediately go up to 4 rax and then I get 1gas and immediate tech lab and stim and then another tech lab but that may vary depending on your opening - dont get a 3rd or 4th addon for a little while until you can afford full unit production and are adequately protected from 1base all-ins (build units not addons). Get the second gas and factory when you can and the first reactor and then go to starport - this tech is delayed by a little while due to more unit production. I sometimes start +1 before I start my factory but if they go for fast collosus this can be risky. If you did a gas before CC opening you can delay your second gas even further for a really powerful timing. It is essential to remember to put your factory down as soon as you have the gas or you won't have enough vikings
Pros:
This build allows for a pretty sweet 10minute timing attacking (at the protoss base at 10minutes). If your macro is on and the toss is going for collosus tech (standard play) then you can often do a good trade or even kill the nexus if they have bad macro ESPECIALLY on maps with big open naturals. Be cautious doing this timing attack on maps like antiga or shak plat and pull back right before you get trapped at the choke by forcefields becuase even though you have a bigger force, you will still die to the zealot grinder if your opponents macro is good and you get cut in half by FFs. You should be able to transition into standard play just fine in this build and you don't HAVE to do damage. On this smaller choke maps this build may not be worth it because it sets you back a bit tech wise, but it makes you safer to 6gate and heavy immortal agression which is something I die to alot doing the 3rax. What I am trying to say here is if you have perfect mechanics, 3rax is better on these maps, but almost everyone reading this guide probably does not.
Cons:
Slower tech, if your opponent goes for really fast collosus and he holds off your timing attack, then you may have to hold off a collosus timing attack with only a couple vikings. This means you absolutely have to get your vikings out asap and get a good concave. Its doable but you need to know when to get your starport going. You might even want to consider skipping your medivacs in some cases. If your timing attack did damage then thats great because he probably won't be able to attack in this moment of weakness for you.
5 Rax - tech extremely delayed
You can't afford 5rax immediatley after CC so you go up to 4 and then add on a 5th in a bit, basically this is just a giant stim timing attack so if you fail to do any damage at the 10minute timing attack you will be in trouble. You will have to hold collosus timing attack without afterwards without any vikigns so you will need a sick concave and hopefully meet the protoss in an open field. If you make a small group of mauarders to try to stutterstep forward toward collosus (4-6) then you might be able to make this work but its hard.
Pros: Very strong timing attack.
Cons: Way behind on tech, hard to defend and transition into standard if you don't do damage. On maps with small natural chokes, almost gauranteed loss.
The Ghost Timing attack
I never do this timing attack, you have probably seen pros do it a few times though. Basically you go up to 3rax and you get ghosts and go for the 10minute timing attack. Try to emp the sentries so they cant FF your army in half and you should win. If you don't win, you are in the same position as the 5rax pretty much except even further behind because all your gas went into ghosts. I have actually been informed that this is not all-in and people can transition out and defend collosus attacks, but its my opinion that you need stellar micro to do so.
Transitioning into the late game.
After any of these builds once you have your starport churning out units you want to do a few things, generally in this order but obviously at this point in the game it may vary.
1) get up to 5-6rax immediately. I usually get 2 reactors but some people might prefer more. I like tech labs because later on you need lots of tech labs to make ghosts and mauraders. Typically you want to adjust to make more marines vs archon zealot and more mauarders vs heavy collosus.
2) start a 3rd
3) Get either a ghost academy when you have the gas OR IMMEDIATELY if you see him transitioning into HT. Alternatively you may need a second reactor starport if he is continuing collosus production past 3. The reason for this is you need medivacs and if he is doing constant collosus production you also need a reactor starport dedicated to viking production or even more if you are behind on viking count.
4) start a second engi bay and armory and go for constant upgrades at this point. This times out perfectly if you start it half way through +1 armor but sometimes you may want to do it earlier and just start +2 weapons earlier.
After your 3rd is up add on up to 7-8 barracks and even more when you take a 4th so that you can remax hopefully somewhat near as quick as the toss.
Scouting
Past the one base timing, terran is the reactive race in TvP so scouting is so important. So I'm gonna go into this in detail.
The scv scout
YOU MUST SCV SCOUT - you need to see if he has 2 gas before 4minutes. If he does, then he could still be doing basically anything, but if he doesn't then you know he is either doing a 4gate or a FE. Typically if he is doing a 4gate you will see alot of energy saved up on his nexus.
The 4gate. Just chill outside his base with your worker (by this I mean hide your worker somewhere don't just leave it in their expansion, hide it just outside their expansion somewhere they probably won't find him). after you scout 1 gas and if you don't see a nexus going down by 5.5minutes start building a bunker in your base right away, repair that bunker and you should hold the 4gate. It was mentioned to me that a 4gate can hit before this timing, but I think thats a very weak version of the 4gate cutting probes and with mostly zealots and you should be able to hold it off with a few scvs and stutter step micro. It is also very helpful to block off your ramp to defend this type of early zealot heavy pressure.
2 gas scenario - again you want to chill outside his base with your worker because although 2gas does imply tech, many protoss are expanding off 2 gas these days. If you see no expansion by 5.5minutes you should build a bunker at your expansion and another at 6minutes.
If no expand you may be facing sentry heavy 4 gate, dts, void rays, warp prisms, immortal allin or even blink stalkers. I'm not really going to go into most of these since there are other posts for this stuff.
Blink stalkers - is basically anti 1/1/1 cheese and should die hilariously to your standard play
DTs - Whenever you scout 2 gas you need to build a engi bay by around 6minutes and a turret at the front of your base. You really need to be actively scouting his unit composition and if you see very few units no sentires and an expansion, you are probably facing dts, in which case throw down another turret in your main near your cc. Some protoss do wonky dt timings with sentries and stuff so you really need the turret at the front of your base anytime you see 2gas. DTs can arrive as early as 7minutes but typically they arrive a bit later with warp prisms etc so thats why I say you need an engi bay at 6 even though that will make your turret a bit late. Also you could hold off the first 1-2 with scan. In a macro game you will probably face dts at some point since they are great for harassment so even with 1 gas openings once you have some minerals to spare put that turret down at your expansion.
immortal all-in aka 3gate robo - If your doing one of the heavy barracks play midgame transitions this should be no problem, you need lots of marines to beat it so you should be fine esp if u pull a few scvs, if your doing the 3rax build and you have scouted no expansion and your scan at 8minutes sees this, immediately cancel scvs and throw down as many bunkers are you can (no more then 5) (unless already using all barracks to make units and can afford bunkers).
Void rays - You basically need alot of marines to defend void rays, void ray vs expand in my experience is basically just a coin flip where you either have enough marines or you dont. Leave maruarders in bunkers at front defend void ray harass with marines. Pull scvs to repair bunkers as there WILL be a push at the front unless he is warping in over the side which will be immediately obvious. Don't try to focus down the voidray stutter step the units first, you may want to pull scvs if you feel like you don't have enough to deal with it. Don't forget, you are way ahead economically of any 1base.
Its helpful scouting this stuff if you hang around in his base and look for any wierd pylon positionings towards the outside of his base, this can imply hes going to build a stargate there. By the time he chases you out of his base around 4:30 you should have seen a 3rd pylon. If you don't see a 3rd pylon, you may be facing proxy void rays and I have even occasiaonlly run into proxy robo 3-4gate warp prism.
Keep your buildings relatively spread out to help spot warp prism shenanigans
The 8 minute scan
This is an integral scan. You need to scan his main to find out if he is going for 6gate or some other 9-10minute pressure build. You scan and if you see 4+ gates and or a robo assume that you are going to be facing pressure soon. You should add on 2-3 bunkers IMMEDIATELY unless your using the 5rax or the ghost openers. Try to hold the scout tower or if you can't then keep a unit out a ways in front of your bunkers so that you will have a heads up and can get scvs in position to repair and preferably some in front and some behind the bunkers to make it harder to FF them away.
I usually scan where I saw the majority of the pylons in my scv scout, typically this gives you enough information, even if they hide a couple of gateways to decide if its going to be pressure or not. The protoss is taking a greater risk by spreading out their buildings then a terran because they are easier to unpower, but sometimes they do it. In that case its basically up to your experience to scout the protoss unit composition and try to figure out what is coming, for example if you scv scout at 7.5-8minutes and you see 5-6 sentries then you are most likely facing aggression since that gas otherwise would be tied up in tech buildings. In all matchups actually its useful to try to ask yourself, "where is the gas".
If you hold this pressure you can immediately take a 3rd and you will be ahead and if enough of your units survive you should counter attack his natural or at least make sure he is unable to take his own 3rd.
The 12 minute colossus timing attack
Somehow you need to scout if this is coming, if your 8minute scan reveals a robo bay and 3gates then you might suspect it but you still can't know. Try to use a timing attack or an scv scout or another scan to find out if its collosus and if it is you need to get vikings out, minimum 2 per collosus preferably 3. Sometimes around 9minutes I start a barracks if i can afford it next to toss base and fly that over and see what hes up too, you get to see alot more then a scan and you can also tell where his units are if your gonna try any drop stuff.
Once you find that this is not coming, or you survive it, congrats you have made it into a macro game! You now have to just scout periodically to find out when HTs come out and for army positioning when he takes a 3rd stuff like that. Add ghosts when you scout HTs.
Engaging the protoss Army
People will have told you that you can't beat the protoss death ball head to head. They are wrong! However, it involves excellent micro and alot of ghosts.
Step 1:Hotkeys are ghosts, vikings, bioball
Step 2: Send ghosts ahead of your army, preferably with cloak and scan his army. This allows you to see where the HT are, avoid getting feedbacked by forward HT(EMP if multiple, snipe if 1). If the HTs are not at the front, then just blanket emp the army, but keep in mind that you MUST still emp those HTs, you cant win with bio against storm so if he has more then a couple storms left after your emps are done, so you may want to try to engage later if you cant emp the hts. Scanning ahead of your army also allows you to spot any forward observers and your ghosts can quickly take them down making your ghosts invisible and reducing protoss ability to feedback you.
Step 3: Stim Engage, target fire with vikings
Step 4: Stutter Step
-if he is all archon zealot and doesnt have too many hts or collosus then you can just stutter step your whole ball back kiting everyting BUT
-if he is heavy in storm and collosus it is better to concave stutter step, what do I mean by this? Try to make a concave with your units and stutter step back small groups from the heaviest areas of aoe damage making an even better concave. Obviously any area under storm stutters back first, and then any area under attack from collosus and then any area with zealots, this is pretty hard advanced stuff so don't worry about it if your below masters
This is pretty hard right! So whats most important. Number 1 thing is try to emp with ghosts before the engagement so that you don't have to worry about it during. Next most important is to micro your bio out of storms. Least important is focus firing with your vikings, just A move your vikigns and forget about them most of the time. I don't have great apm so thats what I do. You can change the outcome of the fight the most by concentrating on microing your bio away from the aoe damage dealers and by making the emps count. Its also helpful to keep your medivacs seperate from your bio since you want them to sit there and heal not stutter step, try keeping them on the vikings tab.
Dropping
Its my opinion that dropping is not as integral as some make it out to be in the matchup. However, you do need to put the fear of drops in protoss. This means you should always try to do at least one drop, so that protoss has to leave some units around to defend, and they will be more afraid to move out early to bother you.
That said, if the protoss is just chilling and macroign up and you have medivacs its foolish not to try to do some damage and throw off their macro. I prefer full medivacs of maruaders to try to kill buildings, and kite small unit groups but some people prefer mixed units. Your priority target are forges, and then other tech structures like templar archives. But remember that the goal of drops is to do damage for free so don't lose your entire drop in exchange for a building or 2 (except maybe for 2 upgrading forges). Your drop is still a success even if all you did was kill a pylon and make the protoss have to do stuff other then macro. Protoss macro is very easy to screw up since they have to pay such close attention to their warp in cycles so if you can delay them by 5-10 seconds 3-5 times a game that can add up to an entire production cycle. Sometimes protoss leave little groups of stalkers around to defend drops. This is a great opportunity to drop mauraders and kill stalkers, its ok to lose some units if you are make cost efficient trades in the drop.
Later in the game when you are dropping far expansions, it is more appropriate to drop marines cuz they kill probes better.
When you get to a higher level of play, rather then doing direct damage with your drops what you want to do is try to pull the protoss units out of position so that the rest of your force can do damage, divide and conquer.
Other notes:
Really try to prioritize your upgrades once you have your vikings up in sufficient numbers, protoss can crono upgrades and chargelot archon ahead in upgrades hurts so dam much so its important to try to stay up with them as best you can. I like to start +1 weapons early since u typically need a engi bay for detection anyway. Don't forget viking attack upgrades.
You can never have enough ghosts, but don't forget you need units too, you can't win with an army thats 50% ghosts, sometimes I get carried away.
Just because you beat a protoss army in the field, don't assume you can march in and win now. The protoss probably just created 40 supply of units instantly so if you try to charge into their base and win you will die with your injured units and lose your advantage. Instead, wait for some more medivac energy and heal up your units, and then once you have some more emps and all your units are healed and you are macroed up well just crush him even worse and then you can win.
If you know you are facing a 1base all-in and you have your expansion up and running DON"T MOVE OUT. Instead start building bunkers and turrets. You have no incentive to move out in this scenario and because you are so far ahead on econ you can afford to spend money on static D. If you are unable to scout a big immortal all-in coming (the only really delayed 1base all-in then check around the map for hidden expos.
Every timing hits the protoss base at 10:00, at 10:30 there is often a collosus out and then your push is dead. Do some damage, kill the nexus if hes sloppy and then get out.
Concluding Remarks
I know that I am not always super clear even though I think I am so if you need clarification or you think I missed something let me know as its hard for me to handle thinking about what I have missed looking at this giant wall of text and I will be making edits to it soon.
Replays
1rax FE into 4rax timing attack - http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/11988/Lostcause_vs_Lopez
My opponent doesnt have the best game, he does a wonky build with some fail pressure and just dies to the timing but this replay is still valuable just so you can see the timings and how everything goes down. I don't build a bunker because I know he has expanded and I am fairly confident in my marine micro. With an early expansion he cant get too many stalkers too quickly because of lack of gas. Note how rapidly you need to be building supply depots. If he went 2 gas before expo a engi bay might also slow me down a bit but then my opponent would also be slowed.
Same build - http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/11994/Lostcause_vs_Believersoul
Opponent goes for greedy upgrades while teching to collosus and doest have enough to hold off the timing attack, loses most of his units and sentries, tries to recover but I just macro up go back and crush him when he tries to take his 3rd. It was somewhat risky of me to push up the ramp in this situation, but I just had a feeling he was weak since my 8min scan revealed the early double forge and robo play.
Same opening - into full macro game http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/11996/Believersoul_vs_Lostcause
Opponent 1gate FEs then does a 3gate poke into a 6gate which i defend and then he trys to secret expand while teching to hts and unfortunately for him I spot it while pressuring his fast tech. He tries to defend but he loses everything and I escape with 3medivacs full of units, macro up get alot of ghosts and he tries to go for double ups archon zealot ht but I just have too many ghosts.
More to come...
Edit: it has been brought to my attention by a couple high level players that all pros generally do 1rax FE since its best to transition into a variety of timings etc. In my guide I imply that you can make any of the transitions from any of the openings which may not be true at a pro level, but I think that most of us who arent playing at the GM level can still consider doing slightly sub-obtimal builds which turn out to be a little easier on micro/safer.
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nice! ive been having some trouble with tvp and this helps ty.
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Well needed guide and a nice write up.
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Posting to show my appreciation. Very good stuff. It's nice to see a guide explaining standard play in such depth.
About that 5:50 expo scout: a crisply timed 4 gate can have him warping in at the proxy pylon at 5:40 (WG research can be done by 5:30) so it may already be too late if we poke back with the scout. And I wouldn't count on the scout hanging around as his natural because it can be picked off any time after his stalker pops. This seems like a very touchy timing.
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Well, this just made TvP easier for me and now I know what to expect from a Standard playing Terran in PvT.
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Very nice write up. Added to bookmarks for reference. Totally going to request a possible TvT and TvZ thread.
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This is a very good guide. Another alternative that you might want to mention is the ability to gasless 1 rax FE with the CC in your base. On smaller maps with large naturals (metal, antiga) this can work very well. If you see them fast expanding, you can just fly it over as soon as it is finished. If not, you still have the super quick orbital and you can easily bunker in and defend your main ramp.
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Really nice job, I think a few things could be added:
A link between maps and builds for the ladder (maybe /w an analysis of the maps)
A better description/replays regarding the ghost timing (btw I saw a lot of 3rax ghost on pro steams atm, might be interesting to see the difference, it seems that your tech comes way earlier than the 4rax)
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Would you consider the 1Rax reactor FE a common/viable opening, or is it to unsafe vs 2gate pressure?
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On November 29 2011 07:44 scottv55 wrote:
Would you consider the 1Rax reactor FE a common/viable opening, or is it to unsafe vs 2gate pressure?
I remember a long time ago DeMuslim dying with this against stalker pressure into 3/4g, but it was a looooong time ago. I don't think it's that much better than getting a tech lab if you go gas expo, and definetely weaker against early pressure. Even 1rax FE gasless deal better with it.
The only positive side is that you crush anykind of stargate play, but I don't see too much 3gate/voidray all in atm on the ladder, might be out of trend. Imo the cons outwieght by a huge margin the pros.
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I think it should be mentioned that 3 plus bunkers should be used to enable dropping in the mid game. This allows you to use 2ships instead just one to drop (whether they are split or together) and still hold the frustrated protoss johnny-a-move once they realize they can't catch the dropships 
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Nice guide, my favorite part is the 8 minute integral scan. This gives you all the info you need for what you should prepare for!
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Protoss here will read that ^^
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this is so standard and still many terrans i face don't know or don't have a solid gameplan except all-ining.
Going like 1 Rax FE and letting me scout that expo at my second poke with the scouting probe is like the worst opening you can ever do. (you open your self up to so many timing attacks and mindgames)
I advise any terran who wants to become good to keep the information for you opponent as low as possible.
(what ever build you may use)
Protoss has really bad scouting options until robo is finished and observer will be at your base. (usually not before 8-9min into the game) if they want to play economically. (anything else that gives better scouting options sacrifieses army alot of economy and army for them)
Which gives you the advantage of beeing able to choose between aggression and defensive play since you can scout them obviously if they go for a early nexus or not until the first stalker is out, which is a damn long time.
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Sweet! I will read this all when I get a chance. I skimmed it pretty well, and while you do have some tips for scouting, I'm still worried that I still won't know what the Toss is doing lol. I guess I'll take your ideas and go from there.
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On November 29 2011 07:44 scottv55 wrote:
Would you consider the 1Rax reactor FE a common/viable opening, or is it to unsafe vs 2gate pressure?
I have been doing this lately. I go reactor barracks expand with only 50 gas mined and guys pulled of gas. I expand and build 3 more barracks. Then I put guys back in gas. A bunker goes down after expo if you don't feel safe. When your barracks finish you should be able to start a reactor and 2 tech on the new barracks and get stim and concussive when it's done. Get combat shields when concussive is done and you are set up for a strong timing. The engi bay and factory are somewhere in there. I forget.
If you scout a 16 nex or 1 gate fe you can choose to all in or double expand before adding the barracks and putting guys back on gas. Message me Philymaniz.778 if you have questions.
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A lot of whether or not you can expand with just marines depends on the map, as the G post suggests. The reason for this is bunkers are excellent at repelling stalker pressure, but if your natural is wide open (doesn't have a choke or a ramp) and there is a 270 degree micro arc for stalker entrance you can't protect all of that with bunkers, especially early on when you will only have a gaggle of marines. It's the same story for expanding outside of your base vs building the command center inside of your base and flying it out later.
If you're confused why fighting stalker pressure with pure basic marines isn't normally good, you're probably not in masters league, but that's ok. Stalkers should always out micro non stim marines so long as the unit counts are low(early-early mid game), and take mostly shield damage while retreating and firing with injured stalkers more behind healthy ones.
Starcraft is a game of cutting corners and small victories to get ahead, but if you cut too many you can get punished, similarly, a pressure (small victory) can also potentially just get crushed by someone playing safe and result in you being punished as a result as well.
If you go for a huge rax count before teching on 2 base, you risk the protoss catching wind and getting very fast AOE. Either temps or colossus should crush most bio in a semi-favorable engagement for toss, and they can get away with it too by holding a choke/ramp with sentries, and drops aren't coming so there isn't even that risk... at which point in time you're probably playing a bit of catchup as everything will be equal save you'll be behind in tech units. That's why so many players opt to go 3 rax tech then add on the 2-3 additional rax later on after they've gotten a few medivacs out, because it gives them more options, though there's always that one moment everyone cringes over for the 10 minute ~ timings which is harder to deal with using the quicker port route and easier with more early raxes, or units.
If you're in masters, or gm league, you kinda play a lot of the same people over and over, so you can get a read on players more or less, but if you're joe shmo in diamond or lower you're probably safe doing one build over, and over, and over on the ladder (given you may change the order depending on the map) until you've got it down pat before moving on and expanding your horizons and change your build up reacting to what you see/expect. That's your best bet to see the highest rate of success on ladder.
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This doesn't seem like a bad little guide. I did learn quite a lot from it, assuming it's accurate 
We've seen a lot of the koreans (and puma.. and thorzain) go one rax fe into 4 or 5 rax. Push, then expo and take double/triple gas. I've seen it enough it might be "standard". What are your thoughts on this?
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1 rax FE is perfectly safe on any map as long as you add extra rax on quickly enough.
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One thing you didn't mention is that the reason why 1 rax marauder fast expand is somewhat unpopular is that it can lose very easily to 3 Gate Void Ray, because you have so few marines early. Cool guide by the way.
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I like parts of this guide a lot, but I disagree slightly with some things you've stated, and yet others I disagree completely with. So I decided to post some comments where I disagree. And if OP agrees with me about the points I made I guess he could integrate them in his main post .
In the current metagame protoss either 1 base or open pretty greedy, and you don't want to fall too far behind, but you don't want to die easily either. This means if you are going to open greedy, you CAN'T afford to get supply blocked or miss your production cycles so really concentrate hard in the early game.
This is partially true, I have no big critcism about it. Though if it was true to the extent you are implying, a 2 rax expo would be the build to go for, not greedy builds. 2rax expo punishes greedy builds and defends allins quite easily. I do a lot of 2 rax expos because of this, but they are a risk as it's quite bad against safe builds. More specificly some builds will be able to expo way before you and still survive (early nexus with 2 more added gates immediately after), or punish your push by killing it off and not losing a lot (3gate sentry can do that to you).
The 1Rax naked FE
This is the riskiest opening. I discourage it except on maps with good chokes on your natural such as shak plat and tal darim alter. You need to be able to hold your natural with just a bunker early in the game since otherwise you will just die to 2gate stalker pressure.
Should probably be pointed out that meanwhile it could be considered risky, it's the one pros tend to favour on nearly all maps. On the worst maps some players wont do it (like meta or xel'naga), but others will still but have it safely tucked away in their base until they've amassed a big enough force. So if done correctly, I'd say it's safe about almost everything, otherwise pros wouldn't do it. I'd simply wish you where a bit more positive about this one, as it's afterall the absolutely most common build, and by many progamers regarded as the best.
The 2Rax Opening
I see this opening done wrong all the time. You open 12rax 13 refinery, get a marine then a reactor and a second rax can go up before depot because you will not be building marines while the reactor is building. Then you build marines from the reactor and you get a tech lab on the second rax right away, get conc and a maurader and do a small push with one maurader. This is pretty good against fast expand, you might be able to kill a FE if protoss is greedy. I don't do this push that much because I prefer the faster expansion from above. Don't keep your mauarder in the front because his slow is key to your stutter step power at this point in the game.
As I actually do this build a lot, I'd just like to point out that rallying your 13th scv to a gas works perfectly fine, ie building the gas just when you reach 14 food. Also I personally like to take one scv out of gas right after dropping my reactor, as 2 scvs is enough to get concussive+marauders, giving you a faster expo with 1 more scv getting minerals. Otherwise I agree, building 2nd rax pre supply is absolutely neccesary to make this build strong.
The 3Rax Teching Build
You have probably seen alot of pros favour this build. After your CC you want to immediately go up to 3 barracks. I prefer 2 reactors but some people prefer 2 tech labs. I think more marines really helps defend against any sort of early void ray or immortal pressure that protoss might be applying to you. You need the reactors up immediately or you may not have enough units out in time to defend pressure from toss so I suggest addson before stim. This obviously depends partly on scouting and preferences. You want to get your second gas shorty after you put down the 3rd rax. Then you want to get your factory immediately and put down a starport and a reactor on the factory for the switch and 2 fast medivacs. You also want to get +1 atk and possible +1 armor started quickly in this build since you have more gas.
Either you haven't posted in which order you think people should start getting these things (addons, uppgrades, medivacs) or I think you are doing it in a absolutely different order than most pros as well as other high level players I've seen. You should go to 3 barracks after the cc, but getting more addons than one tech lab to start uppgrades are highly uncommon as far as I know, unless you are planning to do a timing push before medivacs (ghost rushes comes to mind). Afaik unless an all in is spotted, most people build only marines out of the 3 rax, with only one addoned with a techlab for uppgrades, at least until the factory is started (to start the journy to medivacs). Also I'd like to add that the great majority goes 2 tech labs, not only some. Though I guess this is could be a consequence of most people not going marauder expand, but instead heav y marines in start, meaning that they are in need to get more marauders and not marines in the mix.
Lastly, against allins, getting reactors are most of the time not a good idea due to build time, unless the allin is voidray based I'd say you could decide to either add tech labs and go marauder heavy (especially good vs heavy blink play). If voidrays are indeed coming, I most of the time add more barracks, not reactors (unless I scout it incredibelly early, but even then reactors are way more vurnable to snipes if the protoss pokes in your base with voidrays as you are defending the gateway units).
The Ghost Timing attack
I never do this timing attack, you have probably seen pros do it a few times though. Basically you go up to 4rax and you get ghosts and go for the 10minute timing attack. Try to emp the sentries so they cant FF your army in half and you should win. If you don't win, you are in the same position as the 5rax pretty much except even further behind because all your gas went into ghosts.
I'm quite sure a lot of pros do the ghost timing with 3 raxs. Or at least that's what I've seen most of the time. Also I don't feel this really adds to the guide as you're basically only saying the things that anyone who've ever watched a ghost rush would already know (unless possibly really low level players, but you are saying that your guide isn't made with them in mind in the start).
4) start a second engi bay and armory (this step is debatable and you have to decide when you want to put it into your gameplay, when people do their upgrades varys alot, altho I didn't include it in many build orders I always have an engi bay and usually +1 weaps done with armor on the way by this stage) - constant upgrades at this point
You could add that things time out nicely if you put down the armory when the second of your 1-1 uppgrades are halfway complete, putting down the engineering bay on the same time as that if you want to start 2-2 immediately is obviously also smart.
The scv scout
YOU MUST SCV SCOUT - you need to see if he has 2 gas before 4minutes. If he does, then he could still be doing basically anything, but if he doesn't then you know he is either doing a 4gate or a FE. Typically if he is doing a 4gate you will see alot of energy saved up on his nexus.
The 4gate. Just chill outside his base with your worker after you scout 1 gas and if you don't see a nexus going down by 5.5minutes start building a bunker in your base right away, repair that bunker and you should hold the 4gate. It was mentioned to me that a 4gate can hit before this timing, but I think thats a very weak version of the 4gate cutting probes and with mostly zealots and you should be able to hold it off with a few scvs and stutter step micro. It is also very helpful to block off your ramp to defend this type of early zealot heavy pressure.
2 gas scenario - again you want to chill outside his base with your worker because although 2gas does imply tech, many protoss are expanding off 2 gas these days. If you see no expansion by 5.5minutes you should build a bunker at your expansion and another at 6minutes.
If no expand you may be facing sentry heavy 4 gate, dts, void rays, warp prisms or even blink stalkers. I'm not really going to go into most of these since there are other posts for this stuff.
Blink stalkers is basically anti 1/1/1 cheese and should die hilariously to your standard play
First of all, the chill outside his base, that doesn't work against anyone remotely decent, they'll kill your scv with their stalker. Hide it on a remote location and checking back in around the 6 min mark is a better way to do things, as if they haven't put down a expansion then they are either A) allin or B) so far behind in their expo that you playing as if they where all in wont put you behind anyway.
Second, blink allins is not a only anti 1/1/1 cheese (in fact I've never seen one do it as an active response to 1/1/1). And meanwhile it might be easily held with a marauder expand (basically the hardcounter) it's not with a marine heavy expand if he plays good.
Void rays - if you are playing marine heavy as I suggest you will never die to void rays with decent micro, void ray vs expand is basically just a coin flip where you either have enough marines or you dont. Leave maruarders in bunkers at front defend void ray harass with marines. Don't forget to repair bunkers if there is a big push at the front.
Good voidray allins are by no stretch of the imagination pushovers with standard builds, I'm unsure why you seem to put it that way. As most T's open marine heavy that would mean that the voidray allin nearly always fails, that's not true. Possibly low level ones where they simply a move with their voidrays and all other shenaningans they've built work this way, but that's not how a good void ray all in works.
Except these points I though the guide was a quite good overview of the current standard TvP. I hope I made it clear that I didn't post this to discredit the OP in anyway, I simply put just disagreed with some of the views. If anyone cares about my credentials I'm a high masters terran.
(Also feel free to disagree with any of my points, I love some discussion, just please do it on a mature level :D.)
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Bookmarked and waiting for reps. :D:D:D
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Great post! I've been having a lot of problems late game TvP when I open 1 Rax FE Bio. Unless they try to all-in, I usually end up losing in the end-game battles. The engagement tips seems like they make sense, I'll try those out.
On smaller maps I think 2-Raxing is very strong. I've found myself winning vs most Protoss on small maps with it. A few keys to 2-Raxing:
- If you can, hide as much information as possible. I sometimes use my scouting SCV to build the second Rax at my natural. Make sure you have room for the tech-lab.
- However, you should not delay building placement for more than a few seconds; if they are being persistent with the scout go ahead and drop the Rax anyways. If your initial push is late, it will be ineffective.
- After dropping your 2nd Rax (and reactor), build another depot; this same SCV will then immediately build another depot.
- A depot wall is helpful for holding off initial pressure and will be useful later vs various cheese (4G, fast DT).
- You want to move out when your second Marauder finishes; do not unnecessarily show your first Marauder unless you are going to tag a unit and kill it.
- When you do move out, there are two formations you want to follow. You can either send just the marines to clear watch towers, with Marauders sufficiently far behind so that they are not revealed. If you aren't doing this, make sure your Marauders are in front so that if they tag a stray unit your marines don't block them from continuing to slow.
- When you move out, rally Raxes forward; often the reinforcements are essential. You can rally onto one of your Marauders.
- If your initial scouting SCV sees a very fast expansion, pull 3 SCVs to guarantee an expo deny.
- As pointed out by someone else before, you can just use 2 SCVs on gas after you get down your reactor; however, I feel like this limits tech-based follow-ups (i.e. you are committed to dropping an expansion). If you keep 3 in gas, you can drop a Factory and another refinery as you move out; this allows you to have stim and medivacs later around the same time. Since I only execute 2-Raxes on smaller maps, this is what I usually do.
- Don't take pot-shots from units on the high-ground as you move out.
- If you don't pick off units or do not see an expansion, you do not want to just walk up the ramp. You will generally either want to pull back or concave around the base of their ramp while you secure your own expansion.
- If you don't know what they are going, you can send a single marine or SCV (right click on the mineral patch if you are sending an SCV). This is not a bad time to scan, and determine your opponents tech choice. If you position your scan well you can not only see buildings, but also snipe sentries that are too close to the ramp and potentially end a super-greedy tech.
- Initial Marine-Marauder micro can be very important. In a straight up fight you will usually want your Marauders tanking; microing just your marines back from can help a lot, especially vs Zealots. In low unit count situations, you will often want to stutter-focus down Stalkers and then kite the remaining units.
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I firmly believe combat shields are more important to get before conc shell. Marines are critical to deliver the DPS to zealots, sentries, immortals and void rays, the 10HP buff makes them so much tougher. And u shud get stim rite after CShields. If u build your eng.bay at 6:00 u will have +1 weapons AND stim around 9:45. Visit the protoss around this time...have a chat ;^)
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Thanks so much! This is exactly what I needed. I am basically a medium diamond terran right now, and I want to make my macro better but I wanted to have a guide. With this I should be able to formulate some solid plans to benchmark my progress
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any replays? I've always understood the theory regarding engaging protoss, but when I examine my replays, I can't pin a reason that I win or lose a battle.
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I would read the guide, but honestly, I think you might lose some audience because it doesn't include pictures, replays, or VoDs, only walls of text that anyone could have compiled, in all honesty. 
I will read it, just thought I'd comment on that.
Now that I've read it, saw your note at the end. Looking forward to the pretty guide. :D
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On November 29 2011 07:44 scottv55 wrote:
Would you consider the 1Rax reactor FE a common/viable opening, or is it to unsafe vs 2gate pressure?
Puma did this build against NightEnd in the DHW semis this weekend (game 1 on Shakuras Plateau). I think it's a decent build on maps where you're more likely to face voidray play.
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Awesome thread, was having a lot of problems lately in TvP (plat/diamond level). Watched a buttload of pro games and the 1rax FE seemed like the most common opening. I love the mention of scouting times etc. that will definitely help me out.
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On November 29 2011 10:02 pwei wrote:
Great post! I've been having a lot of problems late game TvP when I open 1 Rax FE Bio. Unless they try to all-in, I usually end up losing in the end-game battles. The engagement tips seems like they make sense, I'll try those out.
On smaller maps I think 2-Raxing is very strong. I've found myself winning vs most Protoss on small maps with it. A few keys to 2-Raxing:
- If you can, hide as much information as possible. I sometimes use my scouting SCV to build the second Rax at my natural. Make sure you have room for the tech-lab.
- However, you should not delay building placement for more than a few seconds; if they are being persistent with the scout go ahead and drop the Rax anyways. If your initial push is late, it will be ineffective.
- After dropping your 2nd Rax (and reactor), build another depot; this same SCV will then immediately build another depot.
- A depot wall is helpful for holding off initial pressure and will be useful later vs various cheese (4G, fast DT).
- You want to move out when your second Marauder finishes; do not unnecessarily show your first Marauder unless you are going to tag a unit and kill it.
- When you do move out, there are two formations you want to follow. You can either send just the marines to clear watch towers, with Marauders sufficiently far behind so that they are not revealed. If you aren't doing this, make sure your Marauders are in front so that if they tag a stray unit your marines don't block them from continuing to slow.
- When you move out, rally Raxes forward; often the reinforcements are essential. You can rally onto one of your Marauders.
- If your initial scouting SCV sees a very fast expansion, pull 3 SCVs to guarantee an expo deny.
- As pointed out by someone else before, you can just use 2 SCVs on gas after you get down your reactor; however, I feel like this limits tech-based follow-ups (i.e. you are committed to dropping an expansion). If you keep 3 in gas, you can drop a Factory and another refinery as you move out; this allows you to have stim and medivacs later around the same time. Since I only execute 2-Raxes on smaller maps, this is what I usually do.
- Don't take pot-shots from units on the high-ground as you move out.
- If you don't pick off units or do not see an expansion, you do not want to just walk up the ramp. You will generally either want to pull back or concave around the base of their ramp while you secure your own expansion.
- If you don't know what they are going, you can send a single marine or SCV (right click on the mineral patch if you are sending an SCV). This is not a bad time to scan, and determine your opponents tech choice. If you position your scan well you can not only see buildings, but also snipe sentries that are too close to the ramp and potentially end a super-greedy tech.
- Initial Marine-Marauder micro can be very important. In a straight up fight you will usually want your Marauders tanking; microing just your marines back from can help a lot, especially vs Zealots. In low unit count situations, you will often want to stutter-focus down Stalkers and then kite the remaining units.
Nice addition to the 2 rax section. I've also been 2 raxing a lot lately with great success, but I've found the 2 in gas expo route to be much stronger. This is mostly because the probe-cut fe with all chrono into warpgate is a pretty good counter to the 2 rax if you have a delayed expo. If you expo earlier against it, you will actually be ahead. With 2 nex worth of chrono and decent scouting, the stim/medivac timing push doesn't work (unless the protoss does something very greedy like double forge fast colossus or fast colossus with charge), he can just have enough gateway units that you're just dead even if you're cost effective with your units.
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Thanks dude this is much appreciated. You should totally do a TvZ and TvT guide as well
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Would you consider the 1Rax reactor FE a common/viable opening, or is it to unsafe vs 2gate pressure? it is definitely viable especially on tal darim or shakuras. On smaller maps I highly recommend taking all 3 scvs off of gas @ 50 and getting your bunker started ASAP. I personally like to allow him to see the 2nd cc go down and if he indeed infact open 2gate pressure I would simply throw down a 2nd refinery after my expo and 1/1/1 him. Alot of protoss players quickly eliminate that you may be 1/1/1'ng after they see an expo. the push comes a bit later but will be hitting relatively at the same weak point since he has responded originally to your fast exp and NOT the 1/1/1/
If you scout that hes gonna all in you off of 1 base just build the extra bunkers. If he opened with some sort of fast obs from the robo and you see that he is reacting to your build with a nexus and not an all in , I recommend getting very quick 1/1 for your bio while preparing for colossus. If he sees that you are upgrading he is going to have to match you and has already sunken alot of gas into the fast robo and obs. If he follows up with colossus off 2 bases with 5 gateways or so I couldnt imagine that he will have been able to keep up with you on upgrades and that will give you a huge advantage in any early engagement and in your drops. Keep in mind, you had your expo first.
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On November 29 2011 09:09 Froadac wrote:This doesn't seem like a bad little guide. I did learn quite a lot from it, assuming it's accurate We've seen a lot of the koreans (and puma.. and thorzain) go one rax fe into 4 or 5 rax. Push, then expo and take double/triple gas. I've seen it enough it might be "standard". What are your thoughts on this?
With good (insane) micro you can deal with colossi/storm on open field without tech if the protoss doesn't have too many forcefields. And the pure marine push can be quite deadly for a greedy toss, when you've enough marines zealots melt, sentry don't do too much dps, so if he's not stalker heavy he's in trouble. It punishes quite well 3g into colossi in my opinion, the fast third is just soooooooooo good for your macro.
But before you try to do that you need a good stutter step micro, knowing how to engage colossi without vikings (2b colossi comes way before you get them out) and some nice multitasking when you're going to push. I'd recommand it on tal darim, shattered and maybe antiga shipyard in the current mappool.
I think it's a bit early too consider it "standard" because every pro has his own version, in the following link you've sC's version;
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66508
First vod it's free
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i've slowly come to the realization that my terrible terrible latency (i live on an achorage in alberta) is a very limiting factor in this MU for me, as alot of micro is involved (even at diamond level) and as such i lose alot. i play mech successfully in both other MUs so i dont really like bio, but everything else seems kind of bad. >.>
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Whats your opinion of a 1 rax reaper expand? Is it a viable build? Does it die/come out significantly behind vs anything?
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Every opening has a trade off.
1 Rax reactor expand is strong against voidray all in, but weak against 2gate stalker pressure, he can easily contain you in your base and slow down your expand with this opening if he applies early pressure and is good at stalker kiting. I find that voidray allin at my level is less common then stalker pressure so it is up to you. As well I am pretty good at scouting the proxy pylon and I almost alwys quickly go up to 4rax so I feel that I am able to hold off the voidray all in most of the time. Do what works for you but be aware of your strengths and weaknesses
1Rax reaper expand is vulnerable to zealot stalker poke, but you gain valuable scouting information and might pick off a probe or two. Risk, reward - maybe on a large map like tal darim where you rarely see zealot stalker poke it might be a good time to bust it out.
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On November 29 2011 14:56 FirstGear wrote:
Whats your opinion of a 1 rax reaper expand? Is it a viable build? Does it die/come out significantly behind vs anything?
It is significantly weaker against a 4gate (hardcore) because you trade a marauder for your reaper. However you've a perfect read on what the protoss is doing. I like to do it if you feel like the protoss is not going to pressure you (1g low chrono) or if he's teching (2gaz low chrono) it's quite good because you can know really quickly what he's going to do, and try to punish him with a good timing attack.
The main element of reflexion should be the map, you need some good cliffs to do it
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I have never posted a comment on a TL forum before. But i had to for this, i am struggling with this match up and this guide really opened my eyes to some of the mistakes that i have been making. Thankyou and i look forward to the replays
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On November 29 2011 14:56 FirstGear wrote:
Whats your opinion of a 1 rax reaper expand? Is it a viable build? Does it die/come out significantly behind vs anything?
I experimented with reaper expo a lot, and basically used it to clear map of probes/scout for proxies/scout for tech later. However it makes 3-4 gate voidray all ins extremely hard to hold because u r 4-5 marines behind since u needed gas(75)/refinery(75) which you wouldn't otherwise need for a naked rax expo. Reaper itself + techlab build time is equivalent of 2+ marines of build time. Meanwhile your additional raxes are delayed.
The reaper on the otherhand while useful for scouting, Allows protoss feel very safe about expanding as he knows that you have very little units due to the investment in the reaper.
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I would also like to add that the mistake a lot of lower level players are making when engaging colossus balls. I often see players stim up to try and snipe the colossus instead of continually kiting to minimize colossus damage. You have to realize that stimmed bio get absolutely destroyed by chargelots if they get a decent amount of contact time, especially in range of guardian shields. Also stimmed bio can kite colossus pretty effectively by staying just out of the 9 colossus range and picking off zealots that come forward until all the zealots are dead.
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You know I was doubting such a small guide (compared to the broad topic) couldn't satisfy my hunger for info, but it seems like it's all juicy information (general rules, important thing to scout for, etc.)
Very nice, thank you!
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Nice guide. Ate it all up.
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Thanks ! Nice write up
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Good write up thanks a lot man really needed this haha
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great OP and very informative additional discussion! My TvP has taken a recent hit so this couldn't be timed better :D
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United States8476 Posts
Here are a few comments I have after a brief glance:
You really need to differentiate between the 1 rax tech lab expand and the 1 rax no gas expand more. 1 rax no gas expand has a lot more viable transitions. For example, 1 rax cc into 4 rax no gas, 1 rax cc into 5 rax no gas, 1 rax cc into 3rd cc, 1 rax cc into double gas for either marine tank timings or marine tank banshee timings.
I wouldn't call 1 rax naked expand "risky" at all, seeing as it's the standard in TvP. Just bad word choice imo. You say it's risky because of double stalker pressure, but that is only really viable on metal and xelnaga. I can't think of any other maps where a bunker wouldn't cover the entire choke.
You say 3 rax tech is unsafe vs immortal pushes, but you shouldn't be committing to 3 rax tech before you rule out a 1 base immortal push.
4 rax or 5 rax "tech" off of tech lab expand isn't standard at all. In fact, I don't ever recall seeing these in a pro game. All of the
transitions I named off of 1 rax no gas expand are way more common and "standard".
Ghost timing attacks aren't allin at all. You can very easily make a factory behind the attack. Many times the terran will decide not to commit to the attack and just retreat.
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Nice, I think this is one of the better guides around. I hope I can get this stuff working in my TvP.
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On November 29 2011 20:01 NrGmonk wrote:
Here are a few comments I have after a brief glance:
You really need to differentiate between the 1 rax tech lab expand and the 1 rax no gas expand more. 1 rax no gas expand has a lot more viable transitions. For example, 1 rax cc into 4 rax no gas, 1 rax cc into 5 rax no gas, 1 rax cc into 3rd cc, 1 rax cc into double gas for either marine tank timings or marine tank banshee timings.
I wouldn't call 1 rax naked expand "risky" at all, seeing as it's the standard in TvP. Just bad word choice imo. You say it's risky because of double stalker pressure, but that is only really viable on metal and xelnaga. I can't think of any other maps where a bunker wouldn't cover the entire choke.
You say 3 rax tech is unsafe vs immortal pushes, but you shouldn't be committing to 3 rax tech before you rule out a 1 base immortal push.
4 rax or 5 rax "tech" off of tech lab expand isn't standard at all. In fact, I don't ever recall seeing these in a pro game. All of the
transitions I named off of 1 rax no gas expand are way more common and "standard".
Ghost timing attacks aren't allin at all. You can very easily make a factory behind the attack. Many times the terran will decide not to commit to the attack and just retreat.
This is true, but 3rd cc is still viable off of tech lab expand, no?
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very nice to see a standard guides returning very nicely structured and written +1!
im not a terran player but i believe something benificial you could add would be what to do in the none standard but fairly common toss builds(I dont believe any immortal play is mentioned for example) tech is scouted.
I think you could do this by just having a section saying whitch one of these transitions should work against certain toss builds
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Thanks a lot! We really need more standard guides on teamliquid!
Most of the other guides don't really help beyond the low-masters level.
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I really like the variations you went through, as a Terran when I off race, I find basic guides like this really nice, simply because I don't have the time to learn the intricacies of other races :D
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My t friend does an upgrade centric (as in engie bay before ghosts) ghost timing into fast third, so I don't think that style has to be allin-ish.
4rax after cc is really bad imo. You shouldn't ever die to that as toss, and afterwards terran is very behind.
The best terran style imo is fast upgrades into mmm with ghosts or vikings, as long as you're active on the map and don't lose drops you're in a good position.
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i go for the 2 rax opener where i get combat shield rather than concussive shell . I think it smashes 1 gate expands harder than the concussive opener as you can take 1 more zealot swipe.
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On November 29 2011 09:09 Froadac wrote:This doesn't seem like a bad little guide. I did learn quite a lot from it, assuming it's accurate We've seen a lot of the koreans (and puma.. and thorzain) go one rax fe into 4 or 5 rax. Push, then expo and take double/triple gas. I've seen it enough it might be "standard". What are your thoughts on this?
I havent been watching games that closely but when in the build do they push with the rines?
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 29 2011 09:28 -Aura- wrote:
One thing you didn't mention is that the reason why 1 rax marauder fast expand is somewhat unpopular is that it can lose very easily to 3 Gate Void Ray, because you have so few marines early. Cool guide by the way.
There's a lot of useful information in the guide, and having read through the replies, I'd like to highlight this comment. The main reason I go for a 1 rax gasless fast expand in my macro-centric TvP is because, and I'm willing to generally assert this, 1 rax concussive marauder FE suffers build order loss to 3 gate Void Ray all-in. You will never have the marines to defend it, and this build is very common on the ladder.
That being said, thanks for the effort but into this guide.
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I liked this guide, and I'm not even a terran. The reason I switched was because of TvP though so ^^
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nice guide thx to you.
in which cases would you go up to 5-6 raxes before getting 3rd cc????
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On November 30 2011 02:37 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
nice guide thx to you.
in which cases would you go up to 5-6 raxes before getting 3rd cc????
I think that it would make more sense to tell you when I would get a 3rd CC first, and the answer is when you deal significant damage to your opponent or favorable win an engagement, then you can cut corners on future unit production and get upgrades and economy going faster.
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thanks to the thread opener, nice guide. I think this will help me a lot to shape up my TvP. Always had problems to read my opponnent.
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this is actually a very well thought out and informative guide. I'm a masters terran player and I also have on and off days in TvP, so its refreshing to see a structured outline presented as shown. Good job, and look forward to replays!
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I just have a few questions.
My build of choice is the 3 racks and fast medivacs. Unfortunatly I find myself very starved for minerals. Getting the infrastructure up is a pain and I usually have a really hard time finding the minerals to put down the fact. At this point I have 3 rax producing (1 with tech lab for marauders and upgrades, 2 naked), scv and supply depot production (plus the occasional bunker etc).
The fact that you also recommand an early 1/1 is abit mind-boggling to me, since I never have that many minerals lying around. When do you usually get the upgrades?
This leads me to think I may have the timings wrong, when do you suggest putting down the fact? When should I put down the extra add-ons for the naked rax? When should I add the 2 extra racks after?
Lastly, if hes going for some kind of 12min collosi push, when should I be putting down a second reactored starport?
Edit: If anyone could post a replay of a well executed 3 racks medivac build I would be really greatfull.
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On November 30 2011 03:24 Bap181 wrote:
I just have a few questions.
My build of choice is the 3 racks and fast medivacs. Unfortunatly I find myself very starved for minerals. Getting the infrastructure up is a pain and I usually have a really hard time finding the minerals to put down the fact. At this point I have 3 rax producing (1 with tech lab for marauders and upgrades, 2 naked), scv and supply depot production (plus the occasional bunker etc).
The fact that you also recommand an early 1/1 is abit mind-boggling to me, since I never have that many minerals lying around. When do you usually get the upgrades?
This leads me to think I may have the timings wrong, when do you suggest putting down the fact? When should I put down the extra add-ons for the naked rax? When should I add the 2 extra racks after?
Lastly, if hes going for some kind of 12min collosi push, when should I be putting down a second reactored starport?
Edit: If anyone could post a replay of a well executed 3 racks medivac build I would be really greatfull.
You can do that: 3rax, double gaz
@100 gaz Factory
Tech lab + stim asap
Starport asap reactor on the fac
However you've to be sure no Xgate all in is coming.
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As a protoss I have to say thank you for the guide
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On November 30 2011 04:31 FreaKasparov wrote:As a protoss I have to say thank you for the guide
Mwaha, I'm going to exploit this to get a better read on my lovely T opponents.
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The scouting section was very well done. Props.
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Thanks for the guide. I just cant seem to figure out this match up. Hopefully I'll get some wins finnaly.
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appreciated thank-you, especially scouting stuff, the more in-depth on scouting the better
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I am Protoss and I actually thank you for this guide :D
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Great guide statikg, this explains the tradeoffs of these builds really well! I often have trouble defending against early stalker pressure with 1rax FE, but that's probably because I need to make bunkers earlier on those smaller maps (obviously haha)...
One question I have though. When do you wall off against P? I've seen this discussed before, but I haven't gotten a definitive answer, more of a "personal preference" type of thing. The first time I got zealot rushed way back in silver league, I made the decision to start walling off against P, but the walloff can allow them to put stalker pressure if I have only marines. On more than one occasion since then, the walloff has hurt me.
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Thx - Just what i was looking for! Very wellwritten and helpful
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@K.Roy Walling off stops proxy 2 gate rush but hurts if protoss does void ray allin. For me void ray allin is more common so i dont wall off. So you make this choice based on the fact on what you face more often.
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On December 02 2011 02:06 Miggypops wrote:
@K.Roy Walling off stops proxy 2 gate rush but hurts if protoss does void ray allin. For me void ray allin is more common so i dont wall off. So you make this choice based on the fact on what you face more often.
Or wall in purposely so they go void ray rush and you can crush it. That is ofc with reactor expand.
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Excellent guide I'm a big fan of the 1rax with tech lab expand into 4rax as well.
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Any thoughts on putting this guide into the liquipedia? I feel like the forums are a great place to discuss strategies and such, but really solidifying it in the liquidepia for quick reference/reading would be awesome!
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I don't really know how to put things into liquidpedia actually lol.
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Wow this is really nice, coming from a Protoss players perspective, basically all of what you said made sense to me, I think other Protoss players should read this just to help develop their own understanding of Terran and the PvT matchup in general.
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Very well thought out and interesting to read. Thank you!
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I do the 2 rax pressure differently, I will try it your way and post back with results!
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I'm curious what your preferred response to a Nexus first is?
When I face it on ladder I never know whether to try to all-in or try to take a faster third to compensate, or if there is a third option.
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On December 02 2011 12:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm curious what your preferred response to a Nexus first is?
When I face it on ladder I never know whether to try to all-in or try to take a faster third to compensate, or if there is a third option.
My preferred response to a nexus first is to immediately build an extra OC in my base and go for faster then usual 3rd. If you take a 3rd right away at this stage in the game you may find yourself to thinly spread but a 3rd OC in base for the extra scvs and mules should catch u up in economy no problem. You will want to build a couple more bunkers then usual if you scout a 6gate transition which is the most dangerous counter response to this response. You also have to prepare yourself for the ridiculous mineral income your about to have (take gases earlier etc.) its quite a difference, I am somewhat used to it since I open double CC after rax in TvZ most games.
Alternatively sometimes I just play from behind, I don't believe there is anyway to punish nexus first unless you were already opening aggressively (aka the 2rax), maybe if your marine micro is sick you could cancel your CC and try 5-6rax pressure.
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On December 02 2011 12:15 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm curious what your preferred response to a Nexus first is?
When I face it on ladder I never know whether to try to all-in or try to take a faster third to compensate, or if there is a third option. My preferred response to a nexus first is to immediately build an extra OC in my base and go for faster then usual 3rd. If you take a 3rd right away at this stage in the game you may find yourself to thinly spread but a 3rd OC in base for the extra scvs and mules should catch u up in economy no problem. You will want to build a couple more bunkers then usual if you scout a 6gate transition which is the most dangerous counter response to this response. You also have to prepare yourself for the ridiculous mineral income your about to have (take gases earlier etc.) its quite a difference, I am somewhat used to it since I open double CC after rax in TvZ most games. Alternatively sometimes I just play from behind, I don't believe there is anyway to punish nexus first unless you were already opening aggressively (aka the 2rax), maybe if your marine micro is sick you could cancel your CC and try 5-6rax pressure.
interesting
followup question - by what method do you choose where to scan in the Protoss main base? Scanning at the nexus doesn't always reveal everything, and what if you miss crucial things?
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On December 02 2011 12:26 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 12:15 statikg wrote:On December 02 2011 12:12 Dhalphir wrote:
I'm curious what your preferred response to a Nexus first is?
When I face it on ladder I never know whether to try to all-in or try to take a faster third to compensate, or if there is a third option. My preferred response to a nexus first is to immediately build an extra OC in my base and go for faster then usual 3rd. If you take a 3rd right away at this stage in the game you may find yourself to thinly spread but a 3rd OC in base for the extra scvs and mules should catch u up in economy no problem. You will want to build a couple more bunkers then usual if you scout a 6gate transition which is the most dangerous counter response to this response. You also have to prepare yourself for the ridiculous mineral income your about to have (take gases earlier etc.) its quite a difference, I am somewhat used to it since I open double CC after rax in TvZ most games. Alternatively sometimes I just play from behind, I don't believe there is anyway to punish nexus first unless you were already opening aggressively (aka the 2rax), maybe if your marine micro is sick you could cancel your CC and try 5-6rax pressure. interesting followup question - by what method do you choose where to scan in the Protoss main base? Scanning at the nexus doesn't always reveal everything, and what if you miss crucial things?
I usually scan where I saw the majority of the pylons in my scv scout, typically this gives you enough information, even if they hide a couple of gateways to decide if its going to be pressure or not. The protoss is taking a greater risk by spreading out their buildings then a terran because they are easier to unpower, but your right sometimes they do it. In that case its basically up to your experience to scout the protoss unit composition and try to figure out what is coming, for example if you scv scout at 8minutes and you see 5-6 sentries then you are most likely facing aggression since that gas otherwise would be tied up in tech buildings. In all matchups actually its useful to try to ask yourself, "where is the gas".
I'm going to add this bit to my guide.
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Do you have any advices on how to stop/scout 1 base 4gate/warpprism allin with 1rax gasless FE into 3rax? It comes at around 7 minutes and you can usually just see that he's one base. Also if you scout for example 3 gates and a robo it could still be an immortal push and then you're fucked if you leave your units in the main. I'm kinda helpless against any kind of warpprism allins. low/mid masters here.
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On December 02 2011 13:27 FaKeSC2 wrote:Do you have any advices on how to stop/scout 1 base 4gate/warpprism allin with 1rax gasless FE into 3rax? It comes at around 7 minutes and you can usually just see that he's one base. Also if you scout for example 3 gates and a robo it could still be an immortal push and then you're fucked if you leave your units in the main. I'm kinda helpless against any kind of warpprism allins. low/mid masters here.
I believe that the typical response to 4gate warpprism all-in is that you immediately grab your units and then when they are in your base you attack move with all your scvs and units and force him to pick up and leave, since your on two bases and you delay his ability to warp in units you should pull ahead quickly as long as you have your buildings spread out to see when hes coming. Since he hasnt expanded past the 6minute mark you should definitely have some bunkers at your front so maybe leave 1 unit in each bunker so he is afraid to attack the front. It is definitely a difficult thing to defend esp with the 3rax play.
The timing for the warp prism play is much sooner then the immortal push but I still wouldn't leave your units in your main unless you are 100% certain for some reason (you shouldn't have this information unless you pull off a miracle scan)
With building placement it is essentially a matter of watching your minimap closely. I would suggest playing without sound to train your minimap awareness.
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Good guide. What scouting time is recommended for the scv? I typically scout after my barracks finishes and this seems to b e good enough unless I scout them last and they already have a stalker. It seems all you really care about knowing is that they have two gas, but even then that doesn't give you much information that can help you prepare, especially when some people get two gas and just expand. It just seems that without a lucky scan it is basically impossible to scout a protoss build beyond just knowing if they have two gas all the way up until you get a factory to scout, so I am not really sure why it is even worth trying to scout them with an scv this early.
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On December 02 2011 13:59 statikg wrote:
I would suggest playing without sound to train your minimap awareness.
Nukes, nydus and to a lesser extent invisi units really suck if you try this.
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nice
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thanx for the guide really helpful
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This guide was very helpful and I really appreciate it as a mid-high master player who is trying to play more Standard TvP.
However I've recently been stumped on when to throw down a CC when I do the 2rax pressure opener. I feel like sometimes either my macro is bad and I can afford to get the expo before the add-ons finish and then delay my push by about 30 seconds, but I've been being told I should be throwing down the CC as the units move out which usually leaves me feeling like I have excess money when I put down the cc (500-ish minerals). This is of course with constant scv production, I'm still comfortable with the build just curious as the guide does not state for that opener when to drop your CC most efficiently
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Thank you very much.
I'm struggling bigtime in TvP
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OK looking at that last replay, it is abnoxious how Protoss is able to hold for 5+ minutes against +90 population Terran...
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I've been trying the no gas fe into 4 rax since checking this, results haven't been good. I see the potential though, usually I'm trying the 9:30 push and getting shutdown and having a hard time stopping the counter.
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Well on most maps against a strong opponent it shouldn't right out win you the game. You need to stay on top of your macro, fall back if the FFs are good and be sure to put down the factory quickly to stop the collosus pushback. Check out the replays and see if your army is as strong as it could be.
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This is something I really really needed ! Had hard times with protoss, basically I always loose vs. Master protoss and can't get promoted
In my opinion this guide is really clear and you clarified every important aspect of the TvP matchup !
Would love to hear some opinion about how to get a good concave for example, and a TvZ guide from you would be awesome aswell !
Thank you very much for your hard work, you helped a lot of Terran players now!
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Nice writing missing pic/video tho
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On December 04 2011 03:26 Zion9 wrote:This is something I really really needed ! Had hard times with protoss, basically I always loose vs. Master protoss and can't get promoted In my opinion this guide is really clear and you clarified every important aspect of the TvP matchup ! Would love to hear some opinion about how to get a good concave for example, and a TvZ guide from you would be awesome aswell ! Thank you very much for your hard work, you helped a lot of Terran players now!
Just try to spread your units out from the ball formation into a line, perpendicular to the protoss force, then stim and A move and you will naturally get a good concave. As long as the protoss force is not miles away.
There is quite a good TvZ guide already actually. It's called something like "docs somewhat definitive guide to TvZ" that I would suggest you read if you need help. Any guide I would write would just be mainly copied from that with maybe some of my own slightly different builds etc. If you'd like to talk to me about TvZ beyond whats in that guide you can PM me.
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On December 04 2011 03:15 statikg wrote:
Well on most maps against a strong opponent it shouldn't right out win you the game. You need to stay on top of your macro, fall back if the FFs are good and be sure to put down the factory quickly to stop the collosus pushback. Check out the replays and see if your army is as strong as it could be.
Yea, wasn't expecting it to outright win but it's getting shutdown. It has won me some early games and i've been able to build on it and win easily. Still working on it though. Overall I think you're right about the best way to follow up that opening vs P is the 4 rax.
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On December 04 2011 03:33 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 03:26 Zion9 wrote:This is something I really really needed ! Had hard times with protoss, basically I always loose vs. Master protoss and can't get promoted In my opinion this guide is really clear and you clarified every important aspect of the TvP matchup ! Would love to hear some opinion about how to get a good concave for example, and a TvZ guide from you would be awesome aswell ! Thank you very much for your hard work, you helped a lot of Terran players now! Just try to spread your units out from the ball formation into a line, perpendicular to the protoss force, then stim and A move and you will naturally get a good concave. As long as the protoss force is not miles away. There is quite a good TvZ guide already actually. It's called something like "docs somewhat definitive guide to TvZ" that I would suggest you read if you need help. Any guide I would write would just be mainly copied from that with maybe some of my own slightly different builds etc. If you'd like to talk to me about TvZ beyond whats in that guide you can PM me.
Thank you really much !
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OP is a nice guy, I would be getting mad at people asking me noob questions like how to concave or how to scan if I was making a guide like this.
Also, about the people talking about 1 rax expand being performed commonly by pro players. I think that just because a pro does it every game doesn' t make it standard. It might mean that it is good but good is different than standard. Also, pros might want to do a higher risk/reward build or something like that. My thoughts on this are not perfect, but basically, Goody uses mech every game agianst protoss, does this make it standard? No. Can it be successful at a high level? Yes. That is what we know using this information.
On December 03 2011 01:01 Nathanias wrote:
This guide was very helpful and I really appreciate it as a mid-high master player who is trying to play more Standard TvP.
However I've recently been stumped on when to throw down a CC when I do the 2rax pressure opener. I feel like sometimes either my macro is bad and I can afford to get the expo before the add-ons finish and then delay my push by about 30 seconds, but I've been being told I should be throwing down the CC as the units move out which usually leaves me feeling like I have excess money when I put down the cc (500-ish minerals). This is of course with constant scv production, I'm still comfortable with the build just curious as the guide does not state for that opener when to drop your CC most efficiently
I think you are over complicating the situation. You said that you can afford it earlier if your macro is bad...so basically this means (in the case of if your macro didn't suck) "Should I cut some units for an earlier expansion?" The answer depends on what your goals are. If you want an earlier expansion and you feel safe or like you cannot do damage then sure, but if your goal is to do serious damage to the protoss then I would recommend not to cut units early.
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On December 04 2011 04:14 Carmine wrote:
OP is a nice guy, I would be getting mad at people asking me noob questions like how to concave or how to scan if I was making a guide like this.
I asked about the concave because I tought he has a specific method for it. It dosnt really work for me to get a concave with A move then hold. So I tought I ask maybe I can learn a new method or something Otherwise I agree you, that it was a bit stupid question after such a guide
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Can't believe this thread was so far down. Thank you so much for the guide, TvP has definitely been really rough as of late.
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On December 04 2011 18:21 Zion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 04:14 Carmine wrote:
OP is a nice guy, I would be getting mad at people asking me noob questions like how to concave or how to scan if I was making a guide like this.
I asked about the concave because I tought he has a specific method for it. It dosnt really work for me to get a concave with A move then hold. So I tought I ask maybe I can learn a new method or something Otherwise I agree you, that it was a bit stupid question after such a guide
You might want to watch some pro streams, particularly some of the Koreans like Polt. Basically you need to pull units back from the fight, then amove them into it. If you do this properly, you'll form a concave and improve it with each group of units you pull back. This is great against charge in particular.
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Thanks statik. This guide format is so much better than the kcdc pictures gallery type. Openings > early threats> midgame > threats > opportunities! Then finishing off with general timings, scouting tips and thoughts. Nice!!!
e: statik misspell -___-
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I actually prefer to do a 1 rax tech lab FE Bomber style, with a quick stim and 3 rax and push out when stim finishes. I don't really want to go gasless expand every game. What I know from when I played Protoss is that a gas openings really keeps you guessing, it can be a FE, cloaked banshees, 1/1/1, hellions, marine/tank all-in etc. If you see no gas you're pretty much free to do whatever you want until ~9-10 mins.
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is there anyway you could post a replay of doing the 1rax tech lab FE? i'm curious to know the timings of that build of how it should be executed. also i would like to know if you have to keep the scv's on gas after you get concussive and the first 2 marauders. Thanks otherwise!!! great guide and i will be trying this stuff out tonight when i ladder against toss. the 1 rax gasless FE is my primary build for this match up :D
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Hi TL, can someone advise a bit on how to defend 3 gate + void ray all in when you do 1 rax FE into 4 rax. The map was Abyssal Caverns and I scouted fast second gas from toss but it could be dt/3gate+ robo/3gate + void ray/anything. by the time i did my second scout they already got 1-2 void ray out near my base. I just got a bunker at natural. that didn't help at all. i have a decent amount of marines but the void ray attacked the supply near my ramp and i couldn't attack the void ray as they have quite a few of stalkers in low ground if i come close they move their void ray back. What should be my correct response? thx
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Build a new depot?
As long as you add the rax quickly you should be ok, as long as you can push him back he can only harass a few outlying buildings, meanwhile you are getting a good economy and should aim to get some vikings asap if he is going to continue his pressure.
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What are peoples views on 1 rax FE into 3 rax then 3 gas (1 with techlab for marauders and stim). Followed up by a quick double eng bay to get mega upgrades rolling.
It delays factory by about 90 seconds but really gives a good 2-2 timing attack
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Nice writeup, very helpful.
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This is unbelievably helpful. Thanks for writing this, cheers.
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thanks a lot for this guide.
it was so helpfull for me. you cant believe how much better my tvp became trough this guide.
I always played 3rax into starport like most pros do. but 4 rax fits me way better.
I like it that master players who dont knock on the gm door write guides. they are so helpful for low diamond players like me.
edit: i'd love it if you find the time to write a tvz guide
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On December 12 2011 09:26 daft21 wrote:
thanks a lot for this guide.
it was so helpfull for me. you cant believe how much better my tvp became trough this guide.
I always played 3rax into starport like most pros do. but 4 rax fits me way better.
I like it that master players who dont knock on the gm door write guides. they are so helpful for low diamond players like me.
edit: i'd love it if you find the time to write a tvz guide
A TvZ guide would be great And some more replays too :D
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Interesting from a Protoss perspective.
You should consider adding something in there about the 2 base 6 gate timings and the 2 base 6gate robo immortal busts.
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Gives me good perspective when I will PvT, thanks
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Where them replays at? :D
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EPT
