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----------Nydus queen/roach all-in----------
Hello TL I’ve decided to write another mini-guide, last time I wrote about Roach/speedling aggression, and this time it will be something more all-in, in ZvZ. I hope you’ll enjoy it, comment if you wonder about anything and I’ll answer as best as I can.
For those interested here is a short description of my approach and structure to the guide:
+ Show Spoiler +Introduction
Here I will shortly introduce the strategy and maybe metion some strengths and weaknesses.
Build order guidelines
Here there will be fairly precise build orders in code tags, but as a zerg player you can’t have a perfect build order since you always have to react to your opponent.
Conclusions and discussion
More discussions about strategy like variations(more or less drones), maps, opponents builds etc. etc.
Replays
Replays showing the strategy.
Introduction
Lets not be under any illusions this strategy is a 1base all-in but it’s also extremely powerful, a few too many drones from your opponent and he will lose. It’s important for a zerg to have many builds in his or her arsenal especially if you find yourself in a boX-series, and I think this build is a very good one to have in your back pocket.
Build order guidelines
I would just like to add that this build order is pretty precise and doesn’t have to played exactly like this but more on that under the discussion part.
14 gas
14 pool
16 overlord
@~70 gas take one drone from gas
16 queen
18 roach warren
17 zergling
18 zergling
19 overlord
19 queen
@~150 gas take on more drone from gas
21 roach
23 roach
25 roach
27 -> 32 drone
32 queen
34 overlord
34 -> 38 drone
38 extractor and put 2 drone back on gas
@third queen done, start lair asap
39 -> 47 roaches
47(+lair complete) queen
49 nydus
Keep making roaches and overlords until your nydus is done
Make sure you have 100gas and minerals when nydus completes
Conclusions and discussion
If this build has been done right you should have 4 queens with 6-8 transfuses and ~16 roaches popping out of a nydus at the 9 minute mark, and that’s no walk in the park to defend.
Variations
There are not that many variations you can do of this build and I think the way I have described is the best one. You could choose to go with 3 queens(2 before lair) instead of 4 but then you won’t have the same strength in your attack because you have to squeeze in less drones resulting in less roaches and less transfuse. Another variation is to transition into this all-in after e.g. a failed transition into roaches after a baneling war, you are too far behind to play the game out normaly and then a nydus play like this can be the best way for you to score a win anyway.
Strengths/weaknesses
The key to why this build becomes so strong are your queens and that is because queens are really strong units with one big limitation, their speed. Just to illustrate this lets take a closer look at the queen;
- Cost 150 minerals(no gas)
- 0 Larva cost
- High hp 175 hp(queen) vs 145 hp(roach)
- Transfuse, 125 hp for 50 energy
- 2x4 damage vs ground(pretty weak attack)
One queen with 2 transfuses can not only tank 175 damage but also save 2 roaches while doing some damage, and you can also be build it without using larva(which can be used for more roaches).
The weakest point of this build is obviously getting the nydus up, preferably in your opponents base, if it gets denied you might as well type gg and leave because your queen are not getting across the map without a nydus.
Since there are many builds that can come from a 1base zerg(more on that in the next part) your opponent can’t afford to just counter them all and therefore have to scout and guess which one is coming. The tells of this build are the nydus and having more than one queen so be sure to hide those well from scouring overlords.
When to use
First of all it should be said that it’s not a good idea to go for this all-in(or any 1base all-in for that matter) versus a 15hatch opening because your opponent will just get too good eco and will have a big enough army to crush you even if the nydus goes up in his base, so lets assume you are playing vs a gas/pool opening.
You can use this build on the ladder and it will probably net you a few wins but that’s pretty pointless(in my opinion), instead I like to use it in match-series like bo3 and bo5. There are two reasons for this.
The first one is that I think getting predictable in bo-series is very bad and a good opponent will take advantage of that. The second reason is that you can actually have some cool mind games going on with all the types of one-base builds you can do, so lets take a closer look at that.
There are plenty of builds you will have to worry about when you see your opponent walling the ramp with 3 roaches.
- Mutas into expansion
- Roaches with burrow/speed ~7.30
- Roches with burrow/speed/+1 attack
- Roach/speedling from hatchery tech
- Nydus/queen/roach ~9.30
- Roach/speedling with lair cancel(my own build^^) ~5.30
I also included some timings of when a few of the different builds move out just to illustrate that the difference is quiet big. An example of how you can mind-game your opponent is to open e.g. 1 base mutas or maybe roaches with speed and burrow in the first game. After that it doesn’t matter if you win or lose(winning is ofcourse better) either way you’ll use the nydus all-in the second game and your opening will look exactly the same.
Your opponent, knowing now how to deal with the burrow shenanigans, might opt for a faster lair(for detection) and more spines at the front giving you an easy win with your nydus. Then in the third game(if there is one) you can choose another one-base timing or just go for standard play.
General tips
Some small tips to think of are;
- Spread most of your overlords around your base(keep ~2 at your opponents base to see if/when he’s expanding or attacking) instead of around the map. This will help you detect any incoming overlord sacrifices and also see if your opponent is going for some kind of baneling bust against your roach wall.
- Be vigilant with your first transfuses the earlier(in the battle) you get those heals of the better.
- Don’t forget units in the nydus that comes from your rally, go back and drop those out too.
- Be wary of small zergling counter attacks, if your overlord sees zerglings outside your base it can be a good idea to save 2-3 roaches in the base and send them to the nydus once the threat of the counter attack is gone(zerglings going home or try to attack).
- Make sure to have an overlord ready in your planned nydus position.
- Every larva counts, don’t miss injects and always try to stay below 3 larva at your hatchery.
How to defend
Defending this as Zerg is mostly about know that it’s coming and knowing that the build exists(knowing there is actually a possibility that you can get nydused). Once you know that, the best way to deny a nydus is first to put 2-3 zerglings on patrol covering the inside of your base and then a few more below overlords that are outside your base.
Should you find yourself in a situation where the nydus went up in your base then the best response is to pull all your drones to the natural and put up extra spines there(assuming you already had some) and sacrifice your main. You are still in a good position in this 1base vs 1base scenario because you will most likely have more drones.
So how do I know that it’s coming? You have a few things you can look for and the first one is if he’s expanding or not(keep an overlord or speedlings at the nat). If there are no signs of him wanting to expand and you see more than one queen or a nydus building with your overlord sacrifice then it’s most likely this build. But if you can’t see anything just try to be all-around safe put spines in your natural and patrol lings in your base against nydus.
Replays
prOpVandroy vs VirusBLy
prOpVandroy vs ESCSaltTheWD
prOpVandroy vs ƎDǃBee
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As always, great mini-guide and will be looking forward to more from you Vandroy!
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Looks really great. but is it viable in any other match ups then ZvZ?
because then I really need to watch out for this one!
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Haha, cool :D
It sure doesn't sound very reliable, though. If your opponent has scouted that you're one-basing, it should mean he's making only units once he hits like half saturation at his natural... and you'd absolutely get slaughtered in a base trade with roaches and queens vs anything involving lings, wouldn't you? Roaches and queens not exactly renowned for their DPS, and you've got two hatches + buildings to kill, where he's only got one. Plus he could just scamper drones out of his natural to hide extractors and whatnot, in case you send drones through the nydus and make spines.
I'm curious how it would go if you took the same idea but did it off a standard 14/14 speedling expand opening, essentially leading to a +1 melee ling/queen nydus all-in. You could use the queens to offensively block the ramp between his natural and main on maps like shattered, or just leave 2-3 at home on your own ramp to delay counters :D
Might need to work a macro hatch in there at the expense of a queen just so you've got enough larva to support mass lings... yeah. No idea how the timings would work, but in any case yours is a pretty sick idea. Never thought Nydus ZvZ would ever sound useable!
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Well, in the event of a base trade he can always retreat quickly-- he can return to defend more quickly than the opponent can get to his base to attack, right? I'd have to see an attempted base trade to know how it'd work out, but my assumption would be that that nydus would provide more mobility for both defense and offense.
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On November 09 2011 07:21 Oinkey wrote:
Looks really great. but is it viable in any other match ups then ZvZ?
because then I really need to watch out for this one!
Nydus as itself is always next to impossible to pull off, just because the worms are so squishy. What makes it viable is that people don't expect it. It isn't exactly more viable in ZvZ though, so you could see it for other things. It's just that a terran will just keep making MM, which burns through roaches and queens, and a protoss will just have to make an immortal or two before coli, plus force fields will rip you apart. It's just that in ZvZ we don't really.... have anything for micro besides fungal, but we get that after this hits.
And to the OP, wouldn't this be kinda weak against, say, Destiny's ZvZ 2 base 12RR w/ Speedlings?
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YES, someone has found a serious way to use my two favorite zerg things, the queen and the nydus!!!
Also, what if you dropped the nydus right outside his natural ramp or outside his natural on a map like antiga (in the fog) and thus made it so that he cudnt run out of his natural?
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I tried this build a few times today (low master EU), but i cant say if its viable yet, but i kinda like it, cause its easy to execute and you dont need to bling/ling micro (my micro sucks, my macro brought me to master).
Why would you make it outside of his natural? Isn't the whole point of this build to avoid the spines he will build if he scouts you stay on 1 base for a long time?
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Just got bum rushed by this today, even though I could smell something fishy (did speedling expand). The scouting overlord I thought I grabbed with my queen, got out of reach and swung around to gain vision of my main. I saw the amount of roaches he had and thought he was going to do an all in timing, so I tried countering a bit (obviously didn't work out). The amount of queens in your base makes it hard for the opponent to scout with an overlord, it is a very interesting strategy. I was at a loss and honestly really glad I lost to something so awesome.
Cheers!
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Why not just throw your drones into it to? I don't see you making any kind of comeback if the 1 big nydus attack fails...
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On November 09 2011 07:21 Oinkey wrote:
Looks really great. but is it viable in any other match ups then ZvZ?
because then I really need to watch out for this one!
Nah it's only viable in the ZvZ match-up, there are some other good nydus starts e.g. 2 base hydra nydus versus toss(but that's an whole other guide^^).
On November 09 2011 09:12 Staboteur wrote:
Haha, cool :D
It sure doesn't sound very reliable, though. If your opponent has scouted that you're one-basing, it should mean he's making only units once he hits like half saturation at his natural... and you'd absolutely get slaughtered in a base trade with roaches and queens vs anything involving lings, wouldn't you? Roaches and queens not exactly renowned for their DPS, and you've got two hatches + buildings to kill, where he's only got one. Plus he could just scamper drones out of his natural to hide extractors and whatnot, in case you send drones through the nydus and make spines.
I'm curious how it would go if you took the same idea but did it off a standard 14/14 speedling expand opening, essentially leading to a +1 melee ling/queen nydus all-in. You could use the queens to offensively block the ramp between his natural and main on maps like shattered, or just leave 2-3 at home on your own ramp to delay counters :D
Might need to work a macro hatch in there at the expense of a queen just so you've got enough larva to support mass lings... yeah. No idea how the timings would work, but in any case yours is a pretty sick idea. Never thought Nydus ZvZ would ever sound useable!
A backstab or base trade is not a big worry, if you see alot of lings just leave your 3 roach wall and he won't be able to get in. If it's just a backstab to cripple your eco it's enough to rally 2-3 roaches in your mineral line. In the case of your opponent being really all-in you can just destroy his hatchery, roach warren, spwaning pool and then take your nydus back to defend.
I don't think lings with the nydus would work because you wouldn't use transfuse as effectively and that's one of the key element to this build.
On November 09 2011 09:23 Conquerer67 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:21 Oinkey wrote:
Looks really great. but is it viable in any other match ups then ZvZ?
because then I really need to watch out for this one! Nydus as itself is always next to impossible to pull off, just because the worms are so squishy. What makes it viable is that people don't expect it. It isn't exactly more viable in ZvZ though, so you could see it for other things. It's just that a terran will just keep making MM, which burns through roaches and queens, and a protoss will just have to make an immortal or two before coli, plus force fields will rip you apart. It's just that in ZvZ we don't really.... have anything for micro besides fungal, but we get that after this hits. And to the OP, wouldn't this be kinda weak against, say, Destiny's ZvZ 2 base 12RR w/ Speedlings?
It's as you say people don't expect it and also terran and protoss have pylons and supply depots all over their bases but in ZvZ you actually wanna spread your overlords around the map not in your base. Therefore you'd actually have to have a ling patrol or something like that and to have that you'd have to be expecting a nydus.
About the Destiny's strat, I hardly play against it no one does it anymore(and tbh I think it's not that good) but I looked it up in liquipedia and it seems to move out around ~9.00(correct me if I'm wrong) which is about the same time your nydus pops. So you'll be in his base with 16 roaches and 4 queens when he is halfway across the map with 12 roaches and some speedlings so I'd say it does pretty well just from looking at that.
On November 09 2011 09:43 ScoSteSal wrote:
YES, someone has found a serious way to use my two favorite zerg things, the queen and the nydus!!!
Also, what if you dropped the nydus right outside his natural ramp or outside his natural on a map like antiga (in the fog) and thus made it so that he cudnt run out of his natural?
I wouldn't suggest to get the nydus anywhere but his base, maybe if your overlords sees a patrolling ling or something like that you can put the nydus at the nat. It's still a strong attack even if you attack the nat, a lot of the time you can dodge atleast a few spines.
On November 09 2011 16:41 elfhat wrote:
Just got bum rushed by this today, even though I could smell something fishy (did speedling expand). The scouting overlord I thought I grabbed with my queen, got out of reach and swung around to gain vision of my main. I saw the amount of roaches he had and thought he was going to do an all in timing, so I tried countering a bit (obviously didn't work out). The amount of queens in your base makes it hard for the opponent to scout with an overlord, it is a very interesting strategy. I was at a loss and honestly really glad I lost to something so awesome.
Cheers!
Hehe, if you scout 2-3 queens or queens with saved up energy from a 1 basing zerg then you should watch out for this build^^.
On November 09 2011 16:57 gosuMalicE wrote:
Why not just throw your drones into it to? I don't see you making any kind of comeback if the 1 big nydus attack fails...
The attack can go on for a while so I think it's better to get reinforcing queens/roaches, and also sometimes you can kill the main but the nat has too many spines and then it's good to have your drones left.
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nydus based all ins are so squishy, especially against another zerg. It's too easy to spot the nydus going up and with speedlings it's super easy to brake down. Also why bother with nydus? Super costly, only to avoid the spines in the front?
If you 1 base too long he will expect a all-in anyway and be preparded to fight it somewhat.
I could see more merit in this against protoss when they FFE, similar in the way that nydus -> hydra was used sometimes. Queen + roach is better then hydra imo and you can do it much faster as you can build roaches earlier.
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On November 09 2011 20:03 Markwerf wrote:
nydus based all ins are so squishy, especially against another zerg. It's too easy to spot the nydus going up and with speedlings it's super easy to brake down. Also why bother with nydus? Super costly, only to avoid the spines in the front?
If you 1 base too long he will expect a all-in anyway and be preparded to fight it somewhat.
I could see more merit in this against protoss when they FFE, similar in the way that nydus -> hydra was used sometimes. Queen + roach is better then hydra imo and you can do it much faster as you can build roaches earlier.
The idea of the nydus is that can transport your queens with saved energy fast to your opponents base and avoiding spines is a plus, your queens are what makes the attack strong. You run the risk of him killing your nydus before it pops but most all-ins/cheese has their weaknesses.
I wouldn't try this vs toss, then I'd rather go for hydras with nydus instead because hydras can shoot buildings infront of canons without getting hit and hydra/speedling is also a good comp vs. just gateway units.
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this isn't really worth it in zvz... its so easily scouted, especially off of one base. one base means either 1 base muta, 1 base infestor, 1 base burrow roach? (lol) or nydus.
u put down spores mutas (and burrow festors/roaches) and just watch for nydus. it doesn't get any simpler than that.
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On November 10 2011 00:51 Flonomenalz wrote:
this isn't really worth it in zvz... its so easily scouted, especially off of one base. one base means either 1 base muta, 1 base infestor, 1 base burrow roach? (lol) or nydus.
u put down spores mutas (and burrow festors/roaches) and just watch for nydus. it doesn't get any simpler than that.
First of all how is this easily scouted? The only way to tell is to get an overlord in which is not easy if the only thing your opponent is focusing on is keeping one outside. I don't think it's easy at all to scout what one-base strat is coming especially since there are so many.
You make it out too simple, it's not about just putting down spores it's when you want to put spores down. Lets say your opponent goes for 1 base muta but he's droneing alot behind 3 roaches to then expand when he gets map control with mutas. With your reasoning you should just put down spines, spores, and make extra lings(assuming you want some at his nat) to patrol your base. The point is that a good player doesn't just blind counter all one base starts because if you try to defend all the different starts from one base you risk falling behind to someone e.g. just droneing(even if it's on one base) but that's a bit off-topic.
I agree that if you keep good watch for the nydus then you'll be in a good position but very few people actually do that even if you stay on one base. It's possibly that people are not used to seeing nydus play from one base, or that they just forget I don't know.
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Yeah, and isn't that really the point of it? It's a cheese. If nydus is undetected, it works. Otherwise it doesn't. If you're able to conclude that someone has bad vision in their main or whatever, it might be idea to do one of these in a series.
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I've been doing this strategy in almost all of my zvz's lately. Except I don't do it on one base because that makes it much weaker and more obvious, instead I do 14g14p speedling expand and get a quick lair while nonstop queen production. Hits around the same time with roaches and a lot of speedlings, and probably more queens than yours too, as well as some spines for good measure...
Here is a replay of my most recent one. The added queens were nice to get the supply block on my opponent as well.
https://rapidshare.com/files/1958200854/Shakuras_Plateau__3_.SC2Replay
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I don't understand how this would work against anyone scouting that you are 1basing. He'll just make sure to have a bigger economy than a 1basing player and then start massing units :o
Sounds much better to do it as a 2base variant like the poster above me then, like the poster above me.
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So, I've come to the conclusion that I will use this build every time in zvz, it is a safe opener, it has also only failed me 1 time so far...in about 15 zvz's I don't know but we could be onto something with this queen style imo
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6938/queenroach.png)
