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Hi TL! I've been a lurker for sometime now but I've decided to start posting now so I hope I havn't missed anything^^
edit: This build was only meant for ZvZ(must have missed saying that) and it's also a cheese/all-in.
After watching MC cancel his nexus to disguise a 4gate and then in another game seeing Morrow cancel his hatchery to do a roach/speedling timing made me think of this build. I don't know if anyone has done/tried this before(couldn't find anything) but it's basically the 7 roach rush(3 when roach warren finishes+4 from the first inject) with speedling reinforcements but you also trick your opponent into thinking you're rushing to lair.
You do this by starting lair right when your queen finsihes and aslo make 3 roaches as if to block your ramp while you're teching. These 3 roaches will be able to clear out any scouts and then go to the ramp before your first inject pops, and that's when you cancel your lair and make 4 extra roaches. After that you reinforce your army with zerglings, due to the fake lair zergling speed will come later but should be finished before you reach your opponent. Since you hardly waste any larva the push doesn't lose too much power by faking the lair tech but it won't work as well over long distances, because you lose so much time travelling, and against hatch first builds becuase they just get too good production and economy before you can attack.
However even though many builds can stop this if they know what's coming, most people tend to relax for a while after seeing such a fast lair. They will either try to drone, expand or break you which can be to your advantage. I think this build is nice cheese and could be good to have up your sleeve in bo3 or bo5. Anyway I posted it here to share and see what TL thinks of it.
Build Order:
Drone scout to see if it's hatch first or not
15 gas
15 pool
16 overlord
16 queen
18 roach warren
17 drone
18 zergling
18 overlord
18 Roach warren and queen should finish at about the same time
18 Inject, start lair immediately and train 3 roaches
@100 gas zergling speed
26 overlord
26 When the first inject pops, cancel lair and make 4 roaches asap
34-41 zerglings
41 overlord
41+ zerglings, try to time the attack with zergling speed finishing.
Note: You want your opponent to see that you're starting lair right after your queen, and be sure to not cancel it until his scout lings/drone are dead or gone.
It's not me playing in these replays, it's my clanmate Skinky laddering but it's the same build give or take a drone.
Replays:
Skinky vs ROOTslush
Slush had broken the ramp and probably won had this been a normal lair rush but because of the cancel skinky comes out ahead of their engagement.
Skinky vs MaestroSAGA
Skinky is slightly behind after the attack and it surely would've been more effective on closer positions.
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Tried this on ladder and its amazing ön close positions and small maps, great guide!
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I've been looking for a 2base allin or cancelhatch allin for close position maps for a while, maybe this will be somewhat what I want...
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It's a nice rush tactic, but won't everyone expecting an all-in if you haven't expanded at 30+ Supply? I would perhaps (as Z) set up a spore crawler to be safe from muta/burrowed Roach/Infestor but since I know i'm worlds ahead macro wise I can just put down 5 Spines and hold the attack.
The first time I see it would most likely kill me though :D
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I think the idea of a 'good strategy' is you don't have to do gimmicky things like this. For example, Terran players who open for banshees will still make banshees if it's scouted. It's because if you do the build right, your rush will come at a time that's so early they cannot deal with it, and even if they deal with it appropriately they will have a hard time. Things like banshee rushes only really get closed down if they 'scout it' during the formative stages (like seeing gas before rax, maybe by seeing your geyser has less gas in it or actually seeing it being complete much earlier than rax).
A 7RR is very powerful because it's the best that comes at the time it does. If the opponent doesn't know it's coming by seeing the formative stages of it (like the overpool) and react then, then they will have a hard time dealing with it if you pull it off correctly. If they know a 7RR is coming, and prepare for it, and then see you go lair, they will already be defended against 7RR and so going for lair is only giving them more time to be set up for the 7RR coming. If they have no idea 7RR is coming, you either only give them time to put up a stronger fight from whatever generic thing they were doing, or they would be crushed if you did a normal 7RR anyways.
I mean that's my opinion on it. A little bit of faking out can always be good though, but MC was really being very risky by doing what he was doing. If july had done a better job scouting he would've instantly won but he was a bit lazy.
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On April 28 2011 20:26 Belial88 wrote:
I think the idea of a 'good strategy' is you don't have to do gimmicky things like this. For example, Terran players who open for banshees will still make banshees if it's scouted. It's because if you do the build right, your rush will come at a time that's so early they cannot deal with it, and even if they deal with it appropriately they will have a hard time. Things like banshee rushes only really get closed down if they 'scout it' during the formative stages (like seeing gas before rax, maybe by seeing your geyser has less gas in it or actually seeing it being complete much earlier than rax).
A 7RR is very powerful because it's the best that comes at the time it does. If the opponent doesn't know it's coming by seeing the formative stages of it (like the overpool) and react then, then they will have a hard time dealing with it if you pull it off correctly. If they know a 7RR is coming, and prepare for it, and then see you go lair, they will already be defended against 7RR and so going for lair is only giving them more time to be set up for the 7RR coming. If they have no idea 7RR is coming, you either only give them time to put up a stronger fight from whatever generic thing they were doing, or they would be crushed if you did a normal 7RR anyways.
I mean that's my opinion on it. A little bit of faking out can always be good though, but MC was really being very risky by doing what he was doing. If july had done a better job scouting he would've instantly won but he was a bit lazy.
Just wanted to say that this build was mean only for ZvZ because otherwise the expansion timing would be all wierd and you opponent would suspect something.
It also wasn't meant as solid build to be executed every game, but more of a nice cheese to have up your sleeve. The idea is that most people going for that fast lair tech in zvz usually makes a round of drones with their first inject and then go for something like mutas or roach speed + burrow.
Those timing usually strikes ~2 minutes later than the 7RR with speedlings, makeing the opponent think he can fit in more drone/tech/upgrades then he actually can. So it relies on your opponent knowing the dangerous timings and try using that to your advantage.
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This does seem like a really great thing to have up your sleeve. It seems like even good players will probably lose to this if they haven't seen it before.
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not really sure how you expect to live when you put down a 1 base roach warren and a drone at 17.... All ill do is 14 gas 14 pool , and then 21 hatch after i scout your roach warren. all larva will be towards speedlings and ill instant kill you right there. Now if you dont make that 17 drone, then u can mass speedling as well and hold off until your roaches come out, but hten my hatch is done and i throw 2-3 spines, make some drones since ill have that, then keep scouting with speedlings and notice you still have no hatch and mines already completely done so i'd assume a 1 base roach push with lair. You're doing roach zergling push instead but regardless Ill just mass lings and throw up another 3 spines and mass ling and 5 spines and bring both my queens down to transfuse when I see the roaches move out... Easily defended, easy win.
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Eh, seems like a bad build.
Counts on your opponent being smart but not too smart.
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On May 03 2011 11:30 kedinik wrote:
Eh, seems like a bad build.
Counts on your opponent being smart but not too smart.
I kinda with this, but have a lot more to add:
This build does not seem at all like an any-circumstance build.
This build looks like something you can only run vs fast (or in some people's opinion, medium-timing) expanding zergs.
1 base (not really 1-base) mass-roach,1-base roach lair, or possibly even 1 base speedling (I don't see this much so I can't say much about it) would beat this build because the opponent will be able to deal with the build whether or not he buys (or notices) the lair feint.
This is because when you move out they will likely have a decent, but possibly smaller army (smaller if they bought the lair feint, since they would be planning an attack of their own soon), but have enough time (after scouting you moved out) to build a matching or superior army by the time the attackers arrive.
Also, I find the supposed enemy scout timing mentioned in this build to be risky... drone scouts are often too late to scout a lair (or else you'd be dead to an opponent's zerglings if you didn't have lings to kill drone), and getting the roaches makes for a block shortly after, further denying scouting, which leaves a pretty large factor of luck regarding what the opponent scouts or else they will assume something like 7RR. ZvZ is generally a bit of a transitive crap shoot because of the scouting (lack-thereof); good players know they can't guaranteed pin a player on a certain strategy. Overlord sacrificing is unheard-of to me except by accident, or just scouting the expansion timing, so isn't of much use.
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On May 03 2011 10:50 SirRobin wrote:
not really sure how you expect to live when you put down a 1 base roach warren and a drone at 17.... All ill do is 14 gas 14 pool , and then 21 hatch after i scout your roach warren. all larva will be towards speedlings and ill instant kill you right there. Now if you dont make that 17 drone, then u can mass speedling as well and hold off until your roaches come out, but hten my hatch is done and i throw 2-3 spines, make some drones since ill have that, then keep scouting with speedlings and notice you still have no hatch and mines already completely done so i'd assume a 1 base roach push with lair. You're doing roach zergling push instead but regardless Ill just mass lings and throw up another 3 spines and mass ling and 5 spines and bring both my queens down to transfuse when I see the roaches move out... Easily defended, easy win.
First of all I don't think you can kill me straight up with lings since I'll have 3 roaches popping and then another 4 after the first inject, and I also think the first replay is somewhat a similar scenario to what you're describing. Secondly the build was meant to trick someone knowing the timings, so idea is that you should get enough spines/army to defened at around ~7.30 where normal lair timings might go out, but instead this push moves out at ~5.30.
I guess you could also argue that since you've expanded you can afford to throw down spines/get and army early just to be safe. On the other hand I could be going for 1base muta and just drones while teching lair and then expand when I get map control with mutas. Don't get me wrong though I do agree that correctly done speedling expand should win over this build.
On May 03 2011 16:09 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:30 kedinik wrote:
Eh, seems like a bad build.
Counts on your opponent being smart but not too smart. I kinda with this, but have a lot more to add: This build does not seem at all like an any-circumstance build. This build looks like something you can only run vs fast (or in some people's opinion, medium-timing) expanding zergs. 1 base (not really 1-base) mass-roach,1-base roach lair, or possibly even 1 base speedling (I don't see this much so I can't say much about it) would beat this build because the opponent will be able to deal with the build whether or not he buys (or notices) the lair feint. This is because when you move out they will likely have a decent, but possibly smaller army (smaller if they bought the lair feint, since they would be planning an attack of their own soon), but have enough time (after scouting you moved out) to build a matching or superior army by the time the attackers arrive. Also, I find the supposed enemy scout timing mentioned in this build to be risky... drone scouts are often too late to scout a lair (or else you'd be dead to an opponent's zerglings if you didn't have lings to kill drone), and getting the roaches makes for a block shortly after, further denying scouting, which leaves a pretty large factor of luck regarding what the opponent scouts or else they will assume something like 7RR. ZvZ is generally a bit of a transitive crap shoot because of the scouting (lack-thereof); good players know they can't guaranteed pin a player on a certain strategy. Overlord sacrificing is unheard-of to me except by accident, or just scouting the expansion timing, so isn't of much use.
I agree with what you say here and all I can say is that you will need some luck and it's a risky build, but what cheese isn't? I see it as a 6pool or something similar sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but it can be good to have to spice up your game in a bo3 or bo5 series.
Now in hindsight you might want to skip the drones scout and just go for this blind and hope for the best.
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The glaring problem with this build is that noticed or not, a one base lair feint gets you almost nowhere.
In all 3 match ups, it works the same way. The longer your opponent stays on one base, the more you need to prepare for an all-in/weird timing attack/tech rush.
Ex the longer terran stays on one base, the more important scouting becomes. Obviously he didn't expand, so that money has to be going somewhere. It could be a 7-rax allin, 2 rax marine scv all-in, cloaked banshee rush, blue flame hellion, etc etc, As with protoss, DT rush, one base stargate etc etc
With Zerg, there are only a handful of viable one-base strategies. Speedling all-in, one-base roach speedling all-in, or or one-base muta. And again as a general rule of thumb, the longer your opponent delays his expansion, the more resources you need to dedicate to army/defense to avoid outright losing to overdroning. Even if all scouting is denied (which is especially hard to do as Zerg because one queen can't expect to kill an overlord before it sees SOMETHING), unlike terran, where different tech requires different responses, the zerg can just throw down an evo chamber, start his upgrades (most likely range as most zvz ends up with a roach/hydra/infestor composition, while sneaking in a drone here and there while nonetheless making army, and if he spots mutas with well-placed overlords, spore crawlers/hydra den if you're on lair can be thrown down in response.
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I have to say I don't see the point in the fake lair. When faking a nexus or hatchery, it works because the opponent will think he's safe. A nexus or hatch means the player is expanding. With a lair it means a one base tech push. But instead you one base tier 1 push. So the opponent is already expecting a push, its not really faking anything, just which units to expect. The opponent will expect mutas or maybe roaches with speed and +1 but instead will get normal roaches and lings. I don't see a problem in dealing with that. Especially if he expanded and has spines/extra queens.
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On May 05 2011 21:53 cutiebutt wrote:
The glaring problem with this build is that noticed or not, a one base lair feint gets you almost nowhere.
In all 3 match ups, it works the same way. The longer your opponent stays on one base, the more you need to prepare for an all-in/weird timing attack/tech rush.
Ex the longer terran stays on one base, the more important scouting becomes. Obviously he didn't expand, so that money has to be going somewhere. It could be a 7-rax allin, 2 rax marine scv all-in, cloaked banshee rush, blue flame hellion, etc etc, As with protoss, DT rush, one base stargate etc etc
With Zerg, there are only a handful of viable one-base strategies. Speedling all-in, one-base roach speedling all-in, or or one-base muta. And again as a general rule of thumb, the longer your opponent delays his expansion, the more resources you need to dedicate to army/defense to avoid outright losing to overdroning. Even if all scouting is denied (which is especially hard to do as Zerg because one queen can't expect to kill an overlord before it sees SOMETHING), unlike terran, where different tech requires different responses, the zerg can just throw down an evo chamber, start his upgrades (most likely range as most zvz ends up with a roach/hydra/infestor composition, while sneaking in a drone here and there while nonetheless making army, and if he spots mutas with well-placed overlords, spore crawlers/hydra den if you're on lair can be thrown down in response.
Well it wasn't meant to get you anywhere, it's like 6pool sometimes you win sometimes you don't, it can be good to mix up you game(in bo3, bo5 etc.) with different builds even if they don't get you anywhere.
On May 06 2011 00:24 CarachAngren wrote:
I have to say I don't see the point in the fake lair. When faking a nexus or hatchery, it works because the opponent will think he's safe. A nexus or hatch means the player is expanding. With a lair it means a one base tech push. But instead you one base tier 1 push. So the opponent is already expecting a push, its not really faking anything, just which units to expect. The opponent will expect mutas or maybe roaches with speed and +1 but instead will get normal roaches and lings. I don't see a problem in dealing with that. Especially if he expanded and has spines/extra queens.
The point of the lair cancel is that any good zerg will know that any tech path comming from a fast lair will pop at around ~7.30 and therefore try to fit in more eco, upgrades, tech or whatever before then to get ahead. This push however moves out at around ~5.30 meaning that if your opponent was e.g. making too many drones because he expected an attack 2mins later he will die.
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The people criticizing this build are showing how bad their understanding of the zvz matchup is by trying to stroke their egos here.
People who see one base lair with a Roach Warren assume one of three things. One base Roach, Infestor, or Muta. The counter to all three is to get a macro lead first, THEN prepare for it, because the correct counter to any one base tech rush turtle (as zerg) is to secure your macro lead, then defeat it with your better economy/production.
A person will see the one base Lair and assume one base Infestor, Muta, or Roach (Roach being the one that would incur the strongest defense, but it's also the weakest build of the three).
I often pull out a one base Infestor build, and often my opponent makes a few Roaches and a bunch of spore crawlers when they see the one base Lair. These opponents die. Unless the opponent scouts the Lair cancel, the timing created by this build should be VERY effective. I intend to try this out on ladder soon.
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I think the build can work, just only in certain map positons/situations. If its cross positions or a map with a long ground distance, the defender has a decent amount of time to see it coming and defend (assuming he has an overlord or lings near your ramp). Unless he is just going straight drones at that exact time. Close positions, its very different. I think it would also depend how the defender uses overlords. If there is an overlord poking into the base or at the ramp, he could get a lot of information (only one gas, could see the cancel, count how many units are already popping, zergling speed, drone count, etc..).
I think the reason I initially found it an odd build is because I was thinking a large map. But if you think of it on a small map or on close positions it can be good.
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The people criticizing this build are showing how bad their understanding of the zvz matchup is by trying to stroke their egos here.
...No. It is a pretty basic rule of thumb to expect an all-in if your opponent stays on one base.
People who see one base lair with ...
People who see one base anything with anything aren't going to drone up really hard.
They are going to play safe.
The problem with the cancel-lair, is that you are still on one base.
They still know something is up, and will play safer.
Bad opponents would blindly build spores.
Good opponents would only build spores when they see a Spire going up.
Bad opponents would drone hard when the opponent is on one base.
Good opponents would play safe until the opponent has expanded.
You're going to end up running your Roach/Speedling army into Spines/Speedlings/Queens at his natural. Also, he's going to see it coming a mile away with one Overlord placed at your ramp.
A Lair or Lair Cancel isn't going to change the fact that you are on one base.
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On May 06 2011 02:02 Sajuuk7 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The people criticizing this build are showing how bad their understanding of the zvz matchup is by trying to stroke their egos here. ...No. It is a pretty basic rule of thumb to expect an all-in if your opponent stays on one base. People who see one base lair with ... People who see one base anything with anything aren't going to drone up really hard. They are going to play safe. The problem with the cancel-lair, is that you are still on one base. They still know something is up, and will play safer. Bad opponents would blindly build spores. Good opponents would only build spores when they see a Spire going up. Bad opponents would drone hard when the opponent is on one base. Good opponents would play safe until the opponent has expanded. You're going to end up running your Roach/Speedling army into Spines/Speedlings/Queens at his natural. Also, he's going to see it coming a mile away with one Overlord placed at your ramp. A Lair or Lair Cancel isn't going to change the fact that you are on one base.
If your response to scouting a lair is just to build units, you are going to lose to Roach burrow or even Spire play, assuming they defend their ramp properly.
This is definitely scary on close positions; now I have to be suspicious of a roach/ling push even if I see a lair. I think if you go above 22 drones in close positions, you cannot defend this --- but this is true for any roach/speedling play, the difference here being the lair feign.
It's kind of like a ZvZ version of the TvZ build where you cancel double-gas and throw down 7 total baracks.
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EPT
