|
So im in love with the new map pool. Im a Master League Zerg and enjoy 90% of the maps in the new season. When I watch GM zerg streams I notice they dont eliminate Xel'naga. I personally hate it (hard to def 4gate and helion openings.) So im wondering which maps do Zergs eliminate mostly? (My guess is pros keep Xel'naga up for tourney practice since that map is used alot, and also eliminate non-tourney maps like Nerazim Crypt and Abyssal Caverns just for sake of map practice.)
Please give feedback as to why you made your choice.
Poll: Which map is your LEAST favorite as a Zerg in the current map pool?Xel'naga Caverns (124) 63% Abyssal Caverns (29) 15% Tal'darim Altar LE (16) 8% Nerazim Crypt (9) 5% Antiga Shipyard (6) 3% The Shattered Temple (5) 3% Metalopolis (4) 2% Shakuras Plateau (4) 2% 197 total votes Your vote: Which map is your LEAST favorite as a Zerg in the current map pool? (Vote): Xel'naga Caverns
(Vote): Abyssal Caverns
(Vote): Antiga Shipyard
(Vote): Metalopolis
(Vote): Nerazim Crypt
(Vote): Shakuras Plateau
(Vote): Tal'darim Altar LE
(Vote): The Shattered Temple
|
my vetoes are XNC, Abyssal Caverns and Nerazim Crypt because either a third is rather hard to take or the rush distance is pretty short  the other maps are just so good, i love playing on these
edit: so, XNC is the worst map imo
|
Yea the close spawn on Abyssal Caverns is pretty bad. I forgot to mention that... I always get terran all-ins on that map, small choke on nat makes it hard to defend too.
|
XNC for sure.
The Tasteless Secret Hallway is making Hellion runby and 4gate a real pain in the rear.
|
LOL yup the hallway can get bad sometimes, I try to poop creep and drop a evo but thats too late in the game, sometimes the damage is done by then...
|
I even think Antiga Shipyard can be a pain if you get the spawn where ur forced to expand away and defend a long distance 3rd.
|
XNC, but this map pool has no compulsary vetos like bluddy Searing Crater or w/e so its fine.
|
Xel Naga was a good map when it came out, simply because it was better than almost everything we had at that time. Nowadays this is just a bad map as well, because people have figured out things.
|
Abyssal ; Xel'Naga ; Altar are the fan favorites on Korea to thumb down.
|
XNC is horribly outdated. Taking a 3rd is so crappy as zerg. So that takes number 1 for the worst map in the pool. Antiga or Tal'darim rocktar are tied for 2nd on the terrible map list.
|
On November 07 2011 21:08 Odal wrote:
XNC is horribly outdated. Taking a 3rd is so crappy as zerg. So that takes number 1 for the worst map in the pool. Antiga or Tal'darim rocktar are tied for 2nd on the terrible map list.
Why do u hate Tal'darim? vs P I like to 7 pool and cause good damage at start, always catches them off guard. And doesnt set you back much
|
I veto XNC and Meta because gold bases are dumb.
|
I feel so lost on shattered temple. Against protoss FFE on that map its like 90 % loss. For some reason I don't feel I have units to bring down the rocks for a third when I'm playing against Terran, I want them for map control and have them in my bases to deal with drops =/
Edit: So The Shattered Temple and XNC are my downvotes 
|
On November 07 2011 21:09 MrBitter wrote:
I veto XNC and Meta because gold bases are dumb.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks metalopolis is stupid.
I think it's incredibly obnoxious to have gold bases that are
1. defendable on a highground
2. able to siege THE OPPONENT'S gold base
Why do blizzards keep making these shitty decisions
Antiga shipyard is also similarly stupid for the same reasons.
|
Didnt think soo many people would have XNC as their 1st pic... I knew it was bad just not this bad.
|
On November 07 2011 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:
XNC for sure.
The Tasteless Secret Hallway is making Hellion runby and 4gate a real pain in the rear.
This is true but i like the map for the same reasons, blings in the secret hallway work wonders
Fellow zergy zergys, no longer be afraid of your enemy's, bust down there front doors and say SUP SON
|
XNC needs a more secure 2nd (less obtuseness) and a friendlier third.
|
I'm Zerg. I hate Tal'Darim Altar. You can't 7pool a ZvZ, the legde can be abused as terran or even protoss, and you can't properly punish a FFE or a fast expo from Terran because you can't get a proper third immediately.
|
I think if XNC made the gold regular blue minerals.. it would be easier for zergs to succeed.
|
On November 07 2011 21:49 JiR wrote:
I think if XNC made the gold regular blue minerals.. it would be easier for zergs to succeed.
The gold base certainly complicates things, but what's most frustrating is the fact that a Terran securing an expansion in the center of the map is:
1.) Cutting off all attacks through the middle without really doing anything
2.) Securing a staging ground for his next push, half way across the map. In other words, it cuts the push distance in half on an already short map.
|
I hate all maps with a gold base. I don't think gold bases should even be in the game.
|
As i spectator I enjoy gold bases, as a player... not so much ;p
|
why is noone voting for shakuras? It's really P/T favored in vZ...
|
XNC gets my vote simple because of it being rediculously hard to secure and then hold a 3rd. I basically got to the point of just trying to over run my opponents on 2 bases, which as well as being mostly unsuccessful just isn't something I find to be fun.
|
Looks like most people hate the same map.. xelnaga doesn't favour us.. seriously. Even idra veto that vs Huk in the community showdown
|
Xel'Naga T_T I have had big problems holding hellion harass and 4 gates on it. If it wasn't for that, I believe I would be able to take a relatively easy 3rd and stop the Terran's 3rd. Against PRotoss it's pretty fine for me, and I tend to go for an agressive infestor ling style on it with fast upgrades which usually catch the toss players offguard.
Close second is Abyssal Caverns though. That map it is truly impossible to take a 3rd safely unless you're really ahead. 
|
I consistently have trouble securing a safe fast expansion on Xel Naga, because I normally prefer using spines to defend expo's, so it can be difficult if someone runs straight by.
|
It really wasn't all *that* long ago that XNC was considered one of the most balanced maps in the pool. I'm glad the pool has improved to the point that it's one of the worst. Yay macro! :D
|
I USED to play Abyssal caverns, but I recently voted it down with the other two.
Abyssal caverns would be awesome if close spawns were removed. Best muta map ever.
|
On November 08 2011 02:23 darkscream wrote:
I USED to play Abyssal caverns, but I recently voted it down with the other two.
Abyssal caverns would be awesome if close spawns were removed. Best muta map ever.
yea i agree that map would be so much better if they fixed spanws ;/
|
I'm quite surprised at the XNC vetos, def not one of my favorite maps but it always seemed like one of the more balanced ones too me imo. Just might think of taking it out just to see what its like.
|
This is insane
just some month back every zerg wanted to play xnc because there where no good maps and today no zerrg, includeing me, likes this map at all.
the maps definetly are going in the right direction.
|
Wow I am so surprised by how loved Shak plateau is.
Xelnaga I can deal with, it has tons of counterattack paths and the 3rd is not as bad as people say.
Shakuras the P and T can easily turtle out their half of the map and roll you over with a perfect unit comp
|
I am not Zerg typically, but as Protoss I have a really fun time 4-gating zergs on XNC. When a 4 gate can do so much damage early game, I can see why it would be hated by so many Zergs.
|
The thing about Skakuras is, whilst it's true the attack paths suck, and it's hard to pressure the natural of a Terran or Protoss player, it's large enough to allow for slightly greedy openings, and getting a 3rd and 4th isn't actually that difficult. There's no really stupid rock positionings, and since they removed the rocks in to main it's simply a better map than it was. Still not amazing, but compared to XNC and Abysmal it's not the biggest problem.
|
my vote was Xel'naga Caverns, i often loose vs marine tank all ins, like Destiny :/
|
Abyssal Caverns for sure, it's impossible to take an 3rd without getting punished..
Second place shakureas, 3rd XNC.
|
I'm not Zerg player but in my opinion best map for Zerg in new map pool is Abyssal Caverns or Xel Naga Caverns. Xel naga is very good for 6pool rushes and another cheeses who is commonly used in Gold-Platinum leagues. Abyssal Caverns is hard to XvZ (without mirror) because 2nrd is very hard to defend against Zerg. In 3rd we got 2 medium entries with rock. If we save rocks we got very easy to attack 2nd entry to 3rd. If we destroy rocks we got nwe entry to 2nd.
Sorry for my bad english ;/
|
Odd how people hate Shak so much yet it's not voted down more. I find it a great map, especially ZVZ where it's easy to spot incoming rushes and defend your ramp from your NAT. Spines at your NAT do wonders on this map and I systematically place overlords on all sides to see drops coming since there are only two paths to drop you need to worry about. Great map in my opinion. What am I not getting here?
|
On November 07 2011 22:10 Big J wrote:
why is noone voting for shakuras? It's really P/T favored in vZ...
Its really not that P/T favored... Xelnaga is way way way worse and personally I like shakuras
|
I haven't decided yet whether I dislike Xel'Naga or Shattered Temple more.
|
I really hate how all the supposed ''zerg macro maps'' have destructible thirds, when a protoss or terran can get a a fast second along with the zerg and the zerg cant really do anything for a good 5minutes. Zerg is supposed to be up a base unless I'm mistaken, and allowing lets say protoss too get a quick second while you can only work off two as well makes 6gates and other 2base timings alot harder to defend IMO. And if they aren't doing an all in, a macro game against P/T 2base vs 2base is extremely difficult. As for my veto, im debating on whether or not to veto XNC, as for the other I haven't decided.
|
I'm really surprised that Tal'Darim Altar is the 3rd least liked map. I was under the impression that zergs liked big maps with lots of expansions.
|
tal'darim, abyssal, shakuras.
tal'darim because i get annoyed with cliff cheese from zergs (burrowed infestors launching IT's from lowground) and terran, also because of how easy it is for protoss to deny a third and that as a zerg you cant really take the true third location
abyssal because its abyssal
shakuras because my playstyle sucks for that map, and i have a hard time securing a 4th. Also, its one real attack path so terran has a ridiculously easy time denying creep and places to attack.
|
On November 08 2011 12:37 envisioN . wrote:
I'm really surprised that Tal'Darim Altar is the 3rd least liked map. I was under the impression that zergs liked big maps with lots of expansions.
Tal'Darim Altar isn't very fun for ZvZ, and I guess some people don't like playing ZvP on it either.
On November 08 2011 12:08 Fallians wrote:
I really hate how all the supposed ''zerg macro maps'' have destructible thirds, when a protoss or terran can get a a fast second along with the zerg and the zerg cant really do anything for a good 5minutes. Zerg is supposed to be up a base unless I'm mistaken, and allowing lets say protoss too get a quick second while you can only work off two as well makes 6gates and other 2base timings alot harder to defend IMO. And if they aren't doing an all in, a macro game against P/T 2base vs 2base is extremely difficult. As for my veto, im debating on whether or not to veto XNC, as for the other I haven't decided.
I think this is a myth. You can very much play on even base with Protoss/Terran, at least for moderate periods of time (obviously if you're always same # of bases as Terran you'll probably lose). The only case I can think of where I go "damn I wish I could take my 3rd earlier" is on Tal'Darim (another reason why some Zergs don't like it), if the Terran goes CC first or goes 1rax expand. I typically will grab a fast 3rd against this response (occasionally I'll baneling bust to keep Terrans honest) but you can't do this on Tal'Darim. This would also be a problem on XNC except no one 1rax expands on that map lol.
Even against a reactor hellion fast 21 CC opening I'm very okay with getting a later third, as long as I can keep droning up my first two bases and build a macro hatch for extra lings against a possible marine/tank push.
On November 08 2011 03:15 Jojo131 wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the XNC vetos, def not one of my favorite maps but it always seemed like one of the more balanced ones too me imo. Just might think of taking it out just to see what its like.
Not sure how "taking out a map" will give you a sense of what it's like, since you won't be playing it
It's tough to break down the Terran's gold Third (I saw July do it vs Morrow at NASL Season 1 Finals though), so you have to play aggressive 2-base play.
For me, I veto Abyssal Caverns and Nezarim Crypt, because everything else is still playable at MLG and whatnot so I do want to keep practicing, even if I don't like Xel'Naga Caverns in particular (every other map I'm okay with).
|
On November 08 2011 05:55 Tropical Bob wrote:
I haven't decided yet whether I dislike Xel'Naga or Shattered Temple more.
shattered temple was easily worse then XNC for me before the close spawn fix... but now im ok with it
|
My vote is shattered temple. If protoss goes FFE, it's basically GG since you can't take a third. If you do decide to take an unreasonably risky third, it doesn't matter because protoss' third is invincible, and their fourth is a gold and is extremely easy to defend too. Your third/fourth also come extremely late too. Trying to take a fast 4th against a protoss who has double gas going or is planning to expand is just ridiculous on that map. At least on Tal Darim you have huge map distances and a choice in which far-off third you want. Then the base is fucking huge, good luck getting an overlord scout.
Against Terran, split map vs split map just sucks, and ST leads to that too easily. In ZvZ it's too hard to do ling runbys when it becomes ling/muta vs ling/muta, so people just both turtle up to ultralisks.
I also strongly dislike Abyssal Caverns, I vetoed that first thing last season. When it's close spawn and Terran just PF's the shared third, that just fucking sucks. On close air they just 2 base siege tank push into your damn main, and both P/T can elevator/cliff abuse/blink you into oblivion on close air. Close ground is just a little too close for comfort, and in general on the map, even on cross positions, a fourth is rather hard.
So I just veto those 2 maps. I am strongly considering veto'ing XNC, it's straight up imbalanced against Terran, but only slightly, it's not too bad. It's not like Abyssal where you can get gayed over and over or ST which you are disfavored all game long. XNC has some nice features too - lots of air room, map control means a lot, and FFE is discouraged (although fast third is discouraged too).
I just can't wait for the day when there's actually a zerg favored map. So far it's just been for zergs "meh i can play there"
I'm not Zerg player but in my opinion best map for Zerg in new map pool is Abyssal Caverns or Xel Naga Caverns. Xel naga is very good for 6pool rushes and another cheeses who is commonly used in Gold-Platinum leagues. Abyssal Caverns is hard to XvZ (without mirror) because 2nrd is very hard to defend against Zerg. In 3rd we got 2 medium entries with rock. If we save rocks we got very easy to attack 2nd entry to 3rd. If we destroy rocks we got nwe entry to 2nd.
Sorry for my bad english ;/
let me enlighten you then. 6 pool is horrible at the top level. It's a straight up build order loss to everything. In ZvZ, hatch first, 10 pool, 8 pool, 14/14, they all beat 6 pool. In ZvP, it only works if Protoss goes nexus first, but now protoss know to scout the zerg base before doing nexus first and if they dont scout that soon (like 4 player map) they make forge then nexus (any 1 base build is lol against 6 pool). Against terran, they just bring 1 scv from mineral line to repair, gg.
At the lower levels though, 6 pool works because people don't follow build orders or they simply aren't aware of how to respond. I don't know why you think 6 pool is good on XNC, I think most zergs prefer 6 pool on 4 player maps because it gives a great chance the opponent doesnt see it coming, but with 1 overlord one direction, and a drone scout on 7 another, they can figure out where you are. In Abyssal the 2nd is quite easy to defend, I don't know why you say it isn't, and I don't know what 2 base build zerg is going to do besides some obvious all-in. I'm not really sure what you mean, but I basically said why it's a horrible map already.
Zerg wants the ability to take a third (it isn't necessary, but if the third is hard to take at least give us the option to take either a riskier third on a map with large distances so we can at least defend it by playing perfectly, or make it so the natural is hard to take for the other races), a 'slim' main that they can scout with an overlord reasonably (like many of the new maps have, like Nerazim Crypt), at least medium sized rush distances (close spawn on Abyssal, for example, is too short even with rocks), a map that isn't easy to just split in half for the other race to just turtle up with static D, open areas for engagements, bases with lots of chokes that make it extremely hard to attack with forcefields and then at the same time extremely hard to defend due to aggressive forcefields, less cliff/ledge abuse for elevators/blink (like main/natural/third on delta quadrant for blink or the old ridge on Lost Temple or even worse was that weird huge 4 player map that the game shipped with, river something), late-game bases (bases 5,6,7) that aren't completely impossibly far and departed away or as equally closer to the enemy as far away from yourself, a possible 4th base, room for mutalisk harass behind bases (this also allows us to be dropped, so makes for dynamic games), less rocks, the possibility of counter-attack routes, and a map where our third isn't fucking 2 paces next to the opponents third and is extremely far away (scrap station was sooo bad). In general, descructible rocks make our life miserable too.
In short, we want it so if the natural is easy to take for others, then the third is easy to take for us, a third and fourth that isn't super far away, hard to get, or shared/next to the opponent, reasonable map distances, no chokes in stupid places and possible open areas to engage, no stupid easy cliff abuse, no island bases, no rocks, no golds, and we dislike split map situations because we will always lose them.
Yea, the way zerg is designed atm means the best map for us is the plainest. Go good game design!
|
I sometimes prefer maps where FFE is almost always happening, because i 10 pool and FE, and punish his FFE, or delay it as much as possible, and therefore hope for the advantage. But i agree with ur last comment about ur "meh" maps lol
|
I don't mind FFE at all, I just think it's ridiculous when Protoss can take their natural no problem, and then zerg isn't allowed to take a third. If you put rocks on the third base, then there should be fucking rocks on the natural. Tal Darim is fine because it's large and you can take a third elsewhere. I don't mind if the third is reduced (like Crevasse or Terminus RE) or is slightly more exposed like on Taldarim, as I am aware it does cause issues if the third is too easy to take (im not sure for who or why though... i just know there was a good reason they added rocks on GSL Tal Darim when it didn't have rocks to begin with).
|
Yea good point :/ those rocks force you to waste larva on units to take down the rocks, and therefore ur behind on drones, but I do see zergs go for the close spawn nat, saw it on stephanos stream yesterday, Id think its easy to defend... id have to try it more to be sure how effective it is.
|
On November 08 2011 17:45 Belial88 wrote:
I don't mind FFE at all, I just think it's ridiculous when Protoss can take their natural no problem, and then zerg isn't allowed to take a third. If you put rocks on the third base, then there should be fucking rocks on the natural. Tal Darim is fine because it's large and you can take a third elsewhere. I don't mind if the third is reduced (like Crevasse or Terminus RE) or is slightly more exposed like on Taldarim, as I am aware it does cause issues if the third is too easy to take (im not sure for who or why though... i just know there was a good reason they added rocks on GSL Tal Darim when it didn't have rocks to begin with).
Well, from what I understand of the current metagame, protoss FFE is the standard, and a fast third (around 4-5 minutes) for zerg will generally crush FFE by outmacroing the protoss by the time he decides to move out. I honestly think that easy to take thirds are a real nightmare for PvZ with a forge FE opener, and the more maps make thirds harder to take the better.
But there's a balance that has to be struck between EASY third bases and DEFENSIBLE third bases, at least from a PvZ FFE standpoint. Easy thirds are generally the kind that are not blocked by rocks directly, and defensible thirds are generally the kind that are closed off environmentally (old Terminus) or the kind that help you defend along the line of attack and provide some kind of cover for your other bases, or the ones you can easily walloff without being abused from a high ground. Indefensible thirds are the kind that are are very wide open, or the kind that require you to pull your army out of position to defend, leaving your other bases vulnerable. I think that in a PvZ FFE scenario, if zerg is given easy thirds, they actually don't have to worry about the defensibility of it until later in the game, assuming they don't outright crush protoss's first attack with the macro advantage gained from the 3 fast hatches. So because FFE gives up a lot of potential for early game agression, it makes easy thirds for Zerg much more defensible because zerg has time to get up a much larger army than the Protoss and can afford to defend more easily due to their macro advantage.
On the other hand, highly defensible thirds, regardless of how easy (read: blocked by rocks) they are, favor protoss because it makes it easier to macro off 3 bases for a nice unit mix without worrying about zerg's mobility abusing the protoss ball on the defense or when it decides to move out. Good maps for this are ones where erecting a gateway/cannon wall on one side of the base leaves the zerg with one "open" path of attack that leads into your natural, where your army should be. Good maps for this are Metalopolis and Shakuras: think of the lowground third by the watchtower and the back third, both are easy to wall off and defend because an army in the middle defends both the natural and the third.
I think Shakuras is really an alright map from this perspective because it lets both races play to their strengths in an FFE scenario. Tal'darim is a little wonky because the space between the natural and the third doesn't contain a separating ramp (both bases are the same elevation) which means you can defend one base with your army and the other with forcefields as easily as you can on Shakuras, where your natural's wallin is at the ramp.
So yeah, this was kind of a long-winded rant on the types of bases and how they work out in PvZ FFE games.
TL;DR: Defensible bases are great for Toss, Easy bases are good for Zerg, good maps let each race access its favored type of expansion.
|
Yea good point :/ those rocks force you to waste larva on units to take down the rocks, and therefore ur behind on drones, but I do see zergs go for the close spawn nat, saw it on stephanos stream yesterday, Id think its easy to defend... id have to try it more to be sure how effective it is.
On ST, it's pretty far away and hard to defend :O. It's not like Tal Darim where at least the map is very large, and the third for protoss is even easier on ST (although it's pretty easy on Tal Darim too).
You can defend it, but it requires pretty perfect play to do so, and you can't guess wrong on what the opponent is doing if you are unable to get that scout off. On tal Darim you have time because of map distance and it's easier to scout with an overlord on that map. I suppose it isn't all that different, the problem I suppose is more so the split map situation, cliff abuse for protoss on your main, and impossible to deny third/fourth gold for protoss.
Well, from what I understand of the current metagame, protoss FFE is the standard, and a fast third (around 4-5 minutes) for zerg will generally crush FFE by outmacroing the protoss by the time he decides to move out. I honestly think that easy to take thirds are a real nightmare for PvZ with a forge FE opener, and the more maps make thirds harder to take the better.
With perfect play and perfect scouting, yes, fast third will crush FFE generally. This is changed because of impossibility to perfectly scout, less than absolutely perfect play, and if the third is easy to take for protoss. I don't think the fast third should not be allowed to be taken, because it's dynamic and it's a real nightmare for ZvP with a FFE vs 2 base. FFE vs Fast third is much more balanced than FFE vs 2 base; 2 base lair is actually behind, and should always lose but sometimes you can catch a protoss off guard with mutas or infestor timing (but 2 base muta or infestor is a really, really bad build, like 4 gate is).
I think the third should either be slightly exposed to encourage aggression and hard for protoss to take (a full minable third on ST is ridiculous) or make the third easy to defend but less fruitful in minerals (fast third generally doesnt take more than 4 gas until they are on 4 bases anyways, and protoss would be hurt too much if it was less gas). I don't think rocks are a good idea though.
XNC is a good example though, of a map that both denies FFE by being super wide open (roach/ling all-in will always beat FFE on that map, for example) and denying a fast third reasonably. You can still do it, technically, so more game options leads to more dynamic play, but it's pretty much impossible to take due to rocks blocking the path to it. There's also ICCUP testbug which doesnt block the expo, but rather the minerals (dont know if that is that much better though, just a little better).
|
yea it seems like a basic rule of thumb that as you get more expansions they should be easier to attack... helps make the games end quicker once they reach 3+ base and max teir... seems like a simple concept for them to consider when making maps. taldarim kinda does that with the 4th only... i like how shakuras does that... same with metalopolis, but maybe there arent enough maps with wide open 3rds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
