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On November 06 2011 22:46 akalarry wrote:
upgraded zealots are HELL to deal with, especially late game. the ideal unit composition for the toss is a ton of zealots, a couple archons, a handful of stalkers, and constant ht/colossus combination and tech switch.
you absolutely need marines to deal with zealots (how many times have you seen gsl pros go marauder heavy and kite for days and the zealots are still alive). colossus/zealot or colosuss/ht composition (or all 3) is insane. gone are the days of colossus/stalker where you could just rape everything with marauder. you now need a good amount of marines to deal with the zealots.
however, here is the main reason why zealots are perfect in toss's unit composition. against zealots, you would ideally ball up and kite. this is to minimize surface area so the zealots can't do as much damage. zealots get much better if you spread out your units.
however, storm/colossus absolutely rapes marines, you only need to get 1 or 2 hits off before the marines are obliterated, so you don't wanna ball up. but if you spread, zealots will do even more damage. also when you kite, your army naturally balls up, while good against zealots, it'll get destroyed by storm/colosuss.
the hardest part is late game, where toss can have 2 or 3 robos, and can constantly tech switch from ht to colossus. you have a battle with toss and both sides reset to 120 food in the late game. it's hard for terran to really scout the tech switch, and if 3 colossus are being chronoboosted out, in no time there will be 6 colosuss out for the next battle that is happening in a few minutes. also once colossus and stalker get 3-3, u better damn well make sure you remembered to get your viking upgrades.
i don't think it's imba, but i do think it's really hard to go up against good late game toss player. it's frustrating to hear so many toss players think all you have to do is emp and win (far from it). the main thing is, you need a fine balance of marine/marauder, great micro, good scouting, and tons of experience.
I like this reply allot, I took to mind everything else said though. More drop heavy play and turtle style building placement, engage at 200 / 200. Building armor and Pf's ^_^. jj
Thanks everyone
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think they summed it up yesterday at asus stars tournament, terran just cannot deal with it without kiting, BFH are good, but getting that critical number is difficult, alot of marines, alot of emps and a few marauders with excellent kiting I believe is the only real way to counter a protoss who can reinforce mass zealots with 10+ gateways
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On November 07 2011 00:38 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:
Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything.
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy.
Nuff said. What you just said didnt make any fucking sense
I can translate for you ->
Avoid giving the protoss surface area, zealots cluster up anyways, 2 emps can remove an entire zealot army shield. If you turtle behind a building wall, you can abuse zealot mobility by focusing on drop ship play every time the protoss moves out,
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On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar. Show nested quote +
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs.
User was warned for this post
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Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go.
This is simply untrue. Please watch pro games, no one gets blue flame hellions off a standard bio play when the Protoss goes chargezealots-heavy. And I guess this is not because they are micro-less “Diamond scrubs” ...
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On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs.
Actually, BF hellions get slaughtered by 3/3 chargelots. They are weak enough that zealots can just mow them down with charge. Unless you get into an ideal situation where your opponent is idiotic and keeps attacking into walled off chokes, you aren't going to get anywhere.
Besides, the amount of money you'll be spending on hellions is astronomical compared to what your opponent will be spending on zealots, since zealots die a lot slower.
Also, how do you plan on killing off buildings? Hellions don't work so well in that regard.
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On November 07 2011 02:37 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 00:38 ThaSlayer wrote:On November 07 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:
Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything.
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy.
Nuff said. What you just said didnt make any fucking sense I can translate for you -> Avoid giving the protoss surface area, zealots cluster up anyways, 2 emps can remove an entire zealot army shield. If you turtle behind a building wall, you can abuse zealot mobility by focusing on drop ship play every time the protoss moves out,
It really is amazing how much better an idea sounds when it's worded properly.
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On November 07 2011 05:08 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs. Actually, BF hellions get slaughtered by 3/3 chargelots. They are weak enough that zealots can just mow them down with charge. Unless you get into an ideal situation where your opponent is idiotic and keeps attacking into walled off chokes, you aren't going to get anywhere. Besides, the amount of money you'll be spending on hellions is astronomical compared to what your opponent will be spending on zealots, since zealots die a lot slower. Also, how do you plan on killing off buildings? Hellions don't work so well in that regard. Critical mass Helllions > Chargelots.
Nobody is telling you to go pure Hellions. Marauder/Hellion/Ghost army is what your looking for.
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On November 07 2011 05:31 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:08 Praetorial wrote:On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs. Actually, BF hellions get slaughtered by 3/3 chargelots. They are weak enough that zealots can just mow them down with charge. Unless you get into an ideal situation where your opponent is idiotic and keeps attacking into walled off chokes, you aren't going to get anywhere. Besides, the amount of money you'll be spending on hellions is astronomical compared to what your opponent will be spending on zealots, since zealots die a lot slower. Also, how do you plan on killing off buildings? Hellions don't work so well in that regard. Critical mass Helllions > Chargelots. Nobody is telling you to go pure Hellions. Marauder/Hellion/Ghost army is what your looking for.
Hellions have the problem of being a one tricky pony in this situation.
Even if all the Zealots die (and Chargelots tear through Hellions in a straight up fight) you'll be left with a bunch of Hellions that are terrible against anything else.
Zealots simply have so much health compared to the Hellion's damage (even with Blue Flame) that the amount of Hellions needed is detrimental to your army composition, you simply put too much into just killing Zealots and not killing anything else.
Ghosts can EMP but because of their cost they'll never be able to really contribute to killing Zealots outside of that EMP.
Marauders can kite Zealots but can't really kill them, the health vs damage ratio is too much in the favor of the Zealot.
Assuming equal upgrades you need 15 marauder shots to kill just one Zealot.
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On November 06 2011 13:39 ThisisRaider wrote:
I know that most Terran probably suffer from Mass Upgraded Speedlots also, but can anyone give me any helpfull advice when it comes to playing against this?
Maybe tell me how you guys respond to it personally.
I have brainstormed, tried BF Hellions with armor upgrades and 3-3 bio (lol)
Mass Marauder doesnt do too well unless you have enough room. ( you cant always choose where to fight ) More marines in the mix I guess works best, but too many will result in a squishy composition, especially when it comes to collosus in the mix.
The only way I beat mass speedlot 3-3 is with panic drops everywhere, (lol) or I just had a excellent engagement.
How about MORE Ghosts? Reapers ftw? I usually have about 8 Ghosts on a control group, but how about more? EMP / Mass Snipe and auto attack from Ghost / Marauder?
I have a replay but im not going to attach it, im just asking for general advice against a few stalker / Plenty Speedlots / few Collosus and maybe a archon or two. ( HT if it last I guess) Basicly Mass upgraded Speedlots! Damnit, I make it sound like the entire Protoss arsenal! ^_^
I did search, didnt find useful results. (surpringly)
Im using More Marine, Marauder, Medivac, few Ghost and Viking atm.
Any tips?
Im Top Platinum Terran.
Immo the game is ridiculous now. Only if perfect emp and zealots are clumped there is a chance for winning. Current reduction of upgrades'cost in PTR is an additional insult to terran. Just because MVP can stutter step 5 different groups of marines/marauder while emping and macroing, doesn't justify the fact the protoss has to only a-move in a favorable concave and terran is MELTED.
Immo late game is impossible to beat a good toss who is on equal expansions as the terran. Emp radius reduction is also ridiculous and unjustified. Carpet storm can be as dangerous as carpet emp, even more, as terran units are smaller and more fit into the same space.
I don't whine about balance, but it seems to me that the toss can stop EVERYTHING, even a double drop, just by warping the upgraded zealots that have an insane amount of health. In contrast, a warp prism on top your production in late game if your army is away also means insta loss.
So my advice to people struggling vs mass zealot/archon/ht/collo is to not allow the toss to reach this favorable combo. You can accomplish this via multiple drops and timing attacks. If things go into late game and on equal footing, you have 80%^lost the game, but if you want to continue, just make marines and ghosts and hope he attacks in a choke so you can emp a good clump of his zealots. Sometimes even this doesn't help though.
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On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs.
lol nice troll.
Good luck, since hellions die in storm, collsai, and chargelot battles.... and they do shit to archons, who 2 hit the hellions in AoE. Collsai WRECK hellions. Not to mention hellion marauder ghost is unremaxable if you lose a fight, as ghosts take years to build, marauders do DICK to zealots, and hellions are a laff. Good luck upgrading that too. Why don't you, mr GM (laff) post your account, and a replay, just one replay, of you going hellions against chargelot archon collsai Ht army.
Just ONE replay. =)
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It has to be said Chargelots are incredibly strong for their cost. I still haven't heard a single decent counter to them.
I mean stay in your base behind depots and bunkers is pretty good, but suicidal in the long run.
Mass marines and ghosts are pretty good, but if a mere handful of storms get through, or toss has colossi then you are utterly dead.
When ghosts get nerfed and upgrades are cheaper then I really expect to see a lot more cheese from terrans desperate to avoid chargelot/HT in the middle to late game.
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BFH are trash against chargelots. Post one replay of mara+BFH working, or stop posting.
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Please upload the replay, very doubtful that you lost just due to army composition.
If your problem is unit composition, marines are the answer, with a few marauders, more like a 3:1 ratio of marines to marauders, this allows you to get a high ghost count quite quickly, and ghosts actually do a ton of damage with emp per cost, and their straight up DPS vs light ain't too bad either. As far as army control goes, try to EMP before the engage while toss's army is stacked up pretty tight, cloak can be quite nice for this, once the EMP's are off, scan back to see if there's any storms coming in, if there are, queue up 2 snipes per HT to take them out before they can destroy everything.
Stim your army, spread it out, and then control click the marines, and kite them back behind the marauders, this will make such a big difference you will be surprised.
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pre-positioning your marauders infront of your marines (mainly a marine army) can get you a surprisingly better outcome of an engagement, with a decent amount of medivacs for them, im only low master but this does help against it. Not a definitive answer, no, but it's just a micro trick that might tilt things more back in your favor. If all the templars are emp'd, snipe is also nifty after EMP.
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On November 07 2011 08:06 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs. lol nice troll. Good luck, since hellions die in storm, collsai, and chargelot battles.... and they do shit to archons, who 2 hit the hellions in AoE. Collsai WRECK hellions. Not to mention hellion marauder ghost is unremaxable if you lose a fight, as ghosts take years to build, marauders do DICK to zealots, and hellions are a laff. Good luck upgrading that too. Why don't you, mr GM (laff) post your account, and a replay, just one replay, of you going hellions against chargelot archon collsai Ht army. Just ONE replay. =) I guess it's worth making you cry.
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20968576/Tal'darim Altar LE (4).SC2Replay.
Blue Flame against Immortals/Stalkers/Colossus/Chargelots/HTs. Can't touch it.
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Should be:
Blue Flame and Siege Tanks against Immortals/Stalkers/Colossus/Chargelots/HTs. Can't touch it.
What kind of player runs straight into a full tank line on high ground! Also your mech build is really at least 50/50 tank focused - and really the tanks and positioning did a lot of the work in killing, well, everything in that game. I don't know how good hellions in MMM would be since the upgrades don't match, and the replay does little to convince me in that regard.
I'll gladly say mech v P is cool. However it seemed that that even with center map control everything else was rather vulnerable to counterattack (esp. on this map) which the P failed to push as the game progressed, not a lot of pressure on the protoss with this build minus hellions either.
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mariners and emps is all u need
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I've yet to see a top level game where zealots are winning the game against terran. It probably IS something that is difficult to deal with, but it's not as if Protoss has not experienced abusive strats from Terran that are simple to pull off early game. Let's see how Protoss doess in the upcoming GSL.
As is, I still believe a top level terran would defeat a top level protoss player at the highest levels.
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Hmm, interesting thread. I've played against 3/3 lots as well and find it herrendously troublesome. I have won against it with upgraded bio, it's just that;
1. You have to drop and harass like a mad man.
2. You need to kite your ass off
I understand you need concussive and at least 3/0 bio to deal with this. But what I want to know is, what is the best marine/marauder ratio?
Personally, I find 2 marines to every 1 marauder is great... but do I have the wrong raito in my composition? I still find it difficult as hell to deal with it.
A tactic I have tried lately, is to get a thor out for chargelot bait so I can get a decent emp off. This has paid off big time, however I'm not sure if this is just gimmicky when there could be an easier solution.
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EPT
