EPTmore marines than marauders i guess
[H] TvP Mass zealots - Page 2
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
more marines than marauders i guess | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
I've wrestled with the mass zealot problem myself in the past, and I thought the same way -- fast blue flame, swap the fac onto a reactor, and constantly produce blue flames off of it. But most of the time, the hellions ended up dying too quickly and only hitting 1-2 zealots while they were alive. Blue flames are effecive vs.zealot in exactly 2 situations: 1) If you're already going Mech or BioMech TvP and thusly have upgrades for them, blue flames en masse are your best option to protect your tanks vs. zealots 2) If you're going standard bio TvP, blue flame is good ONLY in the extreme early game, before Charge is done and makes it impossible to line up, and +1 zealot weapons make your hellions so much weaker in a straight up fight. It would definitely be helpful to have a replay here -- if you lose to mass zealot, you likely either overmade marauders and didn't have quite enough marines, or you were at an upgrade disadvantage. In either case, if you see a Protoss maxing out on a terrible composition that's most effective in medium numbers and in open areas, turtle like a madman, take more expansions, and refuse to engage until you're maxed and upgraded. Use those scans to keep an eye on his composition so you know whether to make a bunch or a few vikings, always keep a handful of ghosts around, and push out at 200/200 while expanding like nuts and dropping to keep pressure on. The protoss 200/200 deathball is scary when it's a nice stalker/colossus/templar/archon mix with just a few zealots to buffer, but when they're getting in the 30-40+ zealot count, you can more or less have your way with them at max. What they *want* is for you to push out with your typical 160-170 food push, get FF'd in half and raped by zealots, run home, and get the other half of your army raped by the counter. Just refuse to do what they want you to do, and this comp is pretty easy to take care of. If you're looking for harder numbers -- shoot for a maxed out army with about a 3:2 marauder/marine ratio (yes this will be fine at 3/3 -- just 1 reactor rax making marines all game should suffice), a handful of medivacs (usually 8-10 at max point), maybe 5-6 ghosts for the EMP blanket, then add more ghosts if he's templar heavy, or a bunch of vikings if he went colo. Most of the pressure is on the Terran to react to what the Protoss does, so keep an eye on that composition so you know what to build, and you'll be in great shape. | ||
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Carush
United States356 Posts
against mass or heavy zealot you need to abuse his lack of anti air fly around with vikings trying to snipe collusion and drop EVERYWHERE some people are saying go more marine heavy i disagree marines don't do much damage to fully armored zealots ghosts are totally the way to go because snipe and emp ignores upgrades gl! | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On November 06 2011 15:13 perser84 wrote: ghost are the way to go i go 1st rax reactor then built 2nd one and built tech lab make marines and from 2nd rax marauder and uppgrade slow shells when 1st marauder is out i take my force add a woker to them and poke and rally other units them built 2nd gas add 3rd rax and ghost academy if he has expansion then try to make as much dmg as possbile immportant is that you get stim as soon slow shells is done if he is has no expansion then scan what he is doing normaly they go 3 gates or or 2 gates robo and guard the ramp with sentries if is that the case built ebay on their expansion but dont finish it built it to 95% if he dmg it you can aport it and get your money back by the time your 3rd rax is done and add another tech lab add 4 ghost +marines/ marauder and make a push at 10:00 if his army is zealot heavy dont worry ghost do 20 dmg to their amor and you have like 4-5 emp to win the fight and the game think about it if he has 5 zealot charging you and you make a emp to them you do 250 dmg to them you emp their sentires so they less effetive to cut your army toss army that get emped is so weak that you could win the fight without stim  and like i said zealot sentries are light amor so you do 20 dmg with ghost vs them That's really neat. Could you upload a replay for the benefit of TL Terrans and much to the chagrin of Protosses everywhere? :D | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
you absolutely need marines to deal with zealots (how many times have you seen gsl pros go marauder heavy and kite for days and the zealots are still alive). colossus/zealot or colosuss/ht composition (or all 3) is insane. gone are the days of colossus/stalker where you could just rape everything with marauder. you now need a good amount of marines to deal with the zealots. however, here is the main reason why zealots are perfect in toss's unit composition. against zealots, you would ideally ball up and kite. this is to minimize surface area so the zealots can't do as much damage. zealots get much better if you spread out your units. however, storm/colossus absolutely rapes marines, you only need to get 1 or 2 hits off before the marines are obliterated, so you don't wanna ball up. but if you spread, zealots will do even more damage. also when you kite, your army naturally balls up, while good against zealots, it'll get destroyed by storm/colosuss. the hardest part is late game, where toss can have 2 or 3 robos, and can constantly tech switch from ht to colossus. you have a battle with toss and both sides reset to 120 food in the late game. it's hard for terran to really scout the tech switch, and if 3 colossus are being chronoboosted out, in no time there will be 6 colosuss out for the next battle that is happening in a few minutes. also once colossus and stalker get 3-3, u better damn well make sure you remembered to get your viking upgrades. i don't think it's imba, but i do think it's really hard to go up against good late game toss player. it's frustrating to hear so many toss players think all you have to do is emp and win (far from it). the main thing is, you need a fine balance of marine/marauder, great micro, good scouting, and tons of experience. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
If the protoss can afford collosi, you can afford BCs. | ||
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Nakama
Germany584 Posts
On November 06 2011 22:49 Euronyme wrote: Battlecruisers baby. Lot's of battlecruisers. If the protoss can afford collosi, you can afford BCs. Hahah funny that u are saying this, cause i just tried it yesterday when i was constantly a base ahead of the toss but couldnt break his defence. I builded 5 starports and surprised him with 6+ bc (2/2)while he had no stalker. He just laughed at me lost half his army, backed up, warped in 15 stalkers killed all my bcs and was fine=) | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On November 06 2011 13:44 StatX wrote: If you post replays we can tell you where you went wrong. The easiest way to undo speedlots is using emp with simcity siege tanks and marines. Try placing bunkers and/or rax in front of your units, the chargelots are nice but they tend to clump up and in a tight quarter, all your marines will be able to fight while the zealots wont be able to. Its rare to see a zealot only army, they will usually be accompanied by archons or some void rays since they barely use gas at all if you count charge and upgrades. What's funny is you will soon see cheaper upgrades for zealots so you may want to get it under control right away. What? No offence but this advice is quite awful. None uses chargelot+voidray at any remotely high level. And marine tank+sim city can probably make you survive some kind of weird chargelot all in, but protosses normally doesn't do chargelot allins either. Instead a lot of chargelots is simply part of their composition, and I doubt turtling in your simcitied base with tanks and marines is going to be a good choice then. (Especially as chargelots are really strong against marine+tank unless you have a wall in or a choke to help you.) Instead as some have mentioned, having more marines is one good way to deal with chargelots. Another one is to try to only engage at points that are somewhat chokes. | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On November 06 2011 21:34 prOpSaiton wrote: Blue Flame hellions, whether you like it or not. Though i fail to see how mass Zealot can be effective without colossus/storm against a good ol' standard bioball simply because of kiting and engaging in good positions. Blueflame helions is not a good choice unless you go mech (which is not a good choice). Because you'll have no uppgrades at all and they'll be worthless against anything but chargelots which they'll be decent versus at best (if the chargelots got 3-3 and the blueflame helions 0-0, which is a likely scenario as you're supposed to uppgrade bio and vikings not mech as terran). | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
The best answer I have seen is really abusing drops and pick-ups using medivacs. Abuse the lack of stalkers, try and keep your medivac energy low so feedback doesn't kill them. | ||
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Xenorawks
158 Posts
it's frustrating to hear so many toss players think all you have to do is emp and win (far from it) It is frustrating because EMPs outrange Feedback. It is frustrating because HTs move slower than Ghosts. It is frustrating that Storms are hard to use when bio ball is kiting backwards because of slow move speed. It is frustrating that HTs have to be loaded into warp prisms to avoid getting EMP and also to be able to drop good storms off which takes hell lot of micro. It is frustrating to see colossi and archons (especially archons) without shields. It is frustrating to see that Scan + Cloak + EMP is pretty much effortless to use while compared to using HTs. Chances are toss will screw up his HTs more often than you will screw up with your Ghosts, so yes it isn't that far from it. Therefore my point is, get ghosts regardless of whether the protoss gets more colossi or HT (although remember to keep your vikings alive if possible to be able to handle a tech switch well). Reason being if the protoss is going to give you hell with chargelots, you give him more hell with his micro. If you see a warp prism, target fire it down immediately with your vikings. Lastly, don't be stingy on those scans, don't let 1 or 2 rogue HTs catch you off-guard. Make sure you know where his army is, use vikings to scout the sides for HT/zealot flank before moving forward for the kill if you want to engage him. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On November 06 2011 23:09 Nakama wrote: Hahah funny that u are saying this, cause i just tried it yesterday when i was constantly a base ahead of the toss but couldnt break his defence. I builded 5 starports and surprised him with 6+ bc (2/2)while he had no stalker. He just laughed at me lost half his army, backed up, warped in 15 stalkers killed all my bcs and was fine=) Dude in no way 15 stalkers beat 6+ BCs ^_^ 2,5 stalkers don't beat a BC. Plus if you walk in 6 collosi into 15 marauders, they're just dead too. Gotta keep 'em with your army! I'm ofcourse totally theory crafting, as I don't play this style myself as protoss, but against a protoss with little AA it seems reasonable, right? | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy. Nuff said. | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
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Nakama
Germany584 Posts
On November 07 2011 00:12 Euronyme wrote: Dude in no way 15 stalkers beat 6+ BCs ^_^ 2,5 stalkers don't beat a BC. Plus if you walk in 6 collosi into 15 marauders, they're just dead too. Gotta keep 'em with your army! I'm ofcourse totally theory crafting, as I don't play this style myself as protoss, but against a protoss with little AA it seems reasonable, right? the moment u loose half of ur stalker u can warp in 15 new ones if u want i can upload the replay as a "proof" but there was rly no way to kill the toss with bc way too expensive and blink stalker just rape them in a solo fight and during a big battle their dps on zealots is way too low to make an impact | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
On November 07 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote: Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything. So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy. Nuff said. What you just said didnt make any fucking sense | ||
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
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perser84
Germany399 Posts
On November 06 2011 22:38 Mobius_1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On November 06 2011 15:13 perser84 wrote: ghost are the way to go i go 1st rax reactor then built 2nd one and built tech lab make marines and from 2nd rax marauder and uppgrade slow shells when 1st marauder is out i take my force add a woker to them and poke and rally other units them built 2nd gas add 3rd rax and ghost academy if he has expansion then try to make as much dmg as possbile immportant is that you get stim as soon slow shells is done if he is has no expansion then scan what he is doing normaly they go 3 gates or or 2 gates robo and guard the ramp with sentries if is that the case built ebay on their expansion but dont finish it built it to 95% if he dmg it you can aport it and get your money back by the time your 3rd rax is done and add another tech lab add 4 ghost +marines/ marauder and make a push at 10:00 if his army is zealot heavy dont worry ghost do 20 dmg to their amor and you have like 4-5 emp to win the fight and the game think about it if he has 5 zealot charging you and you make a emp to them you do 250 dmg to them you emp their sentires so they less effetive to cut your army toss army that get emped is so weak that you could win the fight without stim and like i said zealot sentries are light amor so you do 20 dmg with ghost vs them That's really neat. Could you upload a replay for the benefit of TL Terrans and much to the chagrin of Protosses everywhere? :D sure i can do it after i sleeped a bit | ||
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