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I know that most Terran probably suffer from Mass Upgraded Speedlots also, but can anyone give me any helpfull advice when it comes to playing against this?
Maybe tell me how you guys respond to it personally.
I have brainstormed, tried BF Hellions with armor upgrades and 3-3 bio (lol)
Mass Marauder doesnt do too well unless you have enough room. ( you cant always choose where to fight ) More marines in the mix I guess works best, but too many will result in a squishy composition, especially when it comes to collosus in the mix.
The only way I beat mass speedlot 3-3 is with panic drops everywhere, (lol) or I just had a excellent engagement.
How about MORE Ghosts? Reapers ftw? I usually have about 8 Ghosts on a control group, but how about more? EMP / Mass Snipe and auto attack from Ghost / Marauder?
I have a replay but im not going to attach it, im just asking for general advice against a few stalker / Plenty Speedlots / few Collosus and maybe a archon or two. ( HT if it last I guess) Basicly Mass upgraded Speedlots! Damnit, I make it sound like the entire Protoss arsenal! ^_^
I did search, didnt find useful results. (surpringly)
Im using More Marine, Marauder, Medivac, few Ghost and Viking atm.
Any tips?
Im Top Platinum Terran.
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LOTS of marines. The biggest mistake people make against zealot heavy comps is too many marauders, just because they slow. A ratio of like 3:1 with marines I think is the sweetspot. Good kiting as well.
As for it being squishy - against collosus, get an imperial fuckton of vikings, and against templar, you just have to spread really hardcore. I find engaging from multiple flanks can really help dissolve these issues too.
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I usually cut out some marauders and add more marines, ghosts, and vikings.
Extra vikings makes the colossus die faster and the ghosts and marines are both really good against Zealots. You also have to stutter step or they'll tear your army apart. Basically just a good engagement (don't let all your marines get AoE'd) and good micro, if you emp all the hts/zealots and have a good deal of vikings you'll clean his army up pretty easily.
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If you post replays we can tell you where you went wrong.
The easiest way to undo speedlots is using emp with simcity siege tanks and marines. Try placing bunkers and/or rax in front of your units, the chargelots are nice but they tend to clump up and in a tight quarter, all your marines will be able to fight while the zealots wont be able to.
Its rare to see a zealot only army, they will usually be accompanied by archons or some void rays since they barely use gas at all if you count charge and upgrades. What's funny is you will soon see cheaper upgrades for zealots so you may want to get it under control right away.
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Another thing you can try to do is start doing more drops as soon as you scout that they're going heavy zealot. They won't have many Stalkers or Blink, so it's very hard for them to effectively respond to drops. As long as you pay attention to your drops, you should basically be able to do some amount of damage with each one for free, making their end-game push that much weaker.
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I hear of this experamental mech vs Toss (or bio mech, im not sure - wouldnt mind people uploading some replays)
I hear you all, thanks. We can jump to the debate of him tech switcing to HT if I get too many Vikings though. I guess it would still be best to play with a mixed composition for Toss. Thanks again, im off to catch some sleep.
Ill try better spread and flanks, my latency makes stutter step a little harder than average. Im decent at it though.
Edit: Im Terran, Im always on those Dropships! :D
Guess I Could camp a couple outside his base for when he pushes out.
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the answer is just to micro better and have more marines in your MMM. against mass chargelot if you have more marauders than marines you're doing it wrong. if you post a replay we can analyze other holes in your play because i doubt you're "only" losing to mass chargelots.
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Replay? However, a Protoss player that skimps on Stalkers (which suck) in favour of more Zealots should, simply put, never have any Colossi. You can be a lot more active with your Vikings because without a significant number of Stalkers (which impacts both his upgrades and zealot count) you can mostly just fly around and shoot down any Colossi you see.
It's also important to keep up with your stutter step.
On composition you've already hit the nail on the head, more marines is good  . He won't have many Colossi if you are being active with your vikings and any HTs should be EMPed ASAP.
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ghost are the way to go
i go 1st rax reactor then built 2nd one and built tech lab
make marines and from 2nd rax marauder and uppgrade slow shells
when 1st marauder is out i take my force add a woker to them and poke and rally other units them
built 2nd gas add 3rd rax and ghost academy
if he has expansion then try to make as much dmg as possbile
immportant is that you get stim as soon slow shells is done
if he is has no expansion then scan what he is doing
normaly they go 3 gates or or 2 gates robo
and guard the ramp with sentries
if is that the case built ebay on their expansion but dont finish it built it to 95%
if he dmg it you can aport it and get your money back
by the time your 3rd rax is done and add another tech lab
add 4 ghost +marines/ marauder and make a push at 10:00
if his army is zealot heavy dont worry ghost do 20 dmg to their amor and you have like 4-5 emp
to win the fight
and the game
think about it if he has 5 zealot charging you and you make a emp to them you do 250 dmg to them
you emp their sentires so they less effetive to cut your army
toss army that get emped is so weak that you could win the fight without stim
and like i said zealot sentries are light amor so you do 20 dmg with ghost vs them
imo i would not recomment reaper
their built time is as long as of ghost 40 sec
and 50 hp is quite low for the cost
think about it 2 reaper cost as much as a ghost but the ghost do more dmg thx to emp and snipe rounds
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BF Hellions. No other way around it.
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On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it.
You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions.
Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions?
So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
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Good emps and lots of marines. I use to use bfh as a reaction to a player going mass upgrade gateway, (because hts are light too), to a good deal of success. Not sure why I stopped now that i think about it, I think I just preferred a more standard style of play. Anyway, the key is micro. It's pretty hard to handle so much, because you need to stim+kite (which takes up a ton of apm anyways), emp, snipe, and spread hellions. Remember late game anything there tends to be huge battle balls, and zealots can get a good surround, so you need to position your hellions on the sides. Ideally you would take the initial charge damage with hellions while you emp+stim, kite a bit to get shells onto the army and back up a bit, and then re-position the hellions, and continue to kite.
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If a P plays a lot of chargelots, he mostly doesnt have a lot of stalkers, so abuse him with a lot of drops, he cant get rid of the dropship easy.
This works best before he has templar tech for Feedback.
Composiotion wise bio works just fine, but as people said, dont go too marauder heavy, have some ghosts, and you need to kite nonstop through the engagement. Zealots are already pretty strong, but if Archons hit your blobbed marines, thats another story.
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Against gateway compositions like chargelot archon, you want your infrastructure to have more reactors (cannot stress enough how good this is) and less techlabs.
More mineral dumping, more gas stockpiling.
More marines, more ghost production, more medivacs, more upgrades.
Zealots have a lot of hit points, so you want the marine's DPS and the ghosts anti-light attacks (emps!).
On a 3 base economy your infrastructure should look like:
4-5 Reactored Barracks
3 Tech Lab Barracks
1 Reactored Starport
1 Ghost Academy (mobeius!!)
2 Engie bays, 1 Armory.
Chargelot archon is really good because it's a cheap way to get supply.
Zealots are gas free, Templars are cheap in minerals, so you can effectively spend your resources really quickly with warpgates and spend chronoboost on upgrades.
You want to be doing the same thing: marines for the base mineral army, ghosts and medivacs for the gas dump (upgrades son!).
**BLUE FLAME HELLIONS ARE RETARDED: UPGRADES DO NOT STACK; NO STIM OR PURPOSE AGAINST NON-LIGHT UNITS. DON'T GET THEM**
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Blue Flame Helions are really the answer.
I'm a Protoss Player myself.
BF Helions are really scary.
Sometimes Terrans will play Hellion-Thor-Ghosts. It's just so powerful, i don't know how to beat it.
I tried Zealot-Archon, it failed hard.
I tried Mass-Immortal , it failed hard, because of the strike cannon.
Helions are very very underrated. Helions that you can't reach, are VERY scary. Trust me
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More chargelot meaning the protoss won't have much to hit your vikings, therefore if you have a shit load of vikings it wouldn't matter how many colossi the protoss have as you can snipe them from 937107283 range.
Besides favouring marines over marauders, you have ghosts to instantly take out the shields of all the chargelots.
Vikings > Colossi
Ghosts > HT, Archon, Chargelots
Protoss don't really have an answer honestly if you have units in the right composition. Remember always get LOTS of ghosts once you have a mass of vikings because the protoss would definitely mix lots of Archons in his army once he realize colossi won't cut it. Don't spam all the EMPs at the start of the battle just because you can(unless you can hit every single one of his units). Usually archons would fall behind the chargelots when you are kiting, always save some EMPs for them too. Would you rather a shieldless sad zealot, or a 10 hp archon?
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What are you guys talking about, Hellions are awesome, most people just forget to switch them in battle mode before engaging zealots.
No but really the key to fighting this heavy upgrade zealot style is just to stall the game until you have 3/3 upgrades yourself. To do that you just place buildings a bit everywhere on the map like partially completed supply depot walls barracks and such in choke points and just kite the zealots all the way back to your base. The stupid zealots in the back will attack the buildings and you'll easily pick off the remaining zealots. Same thing if you are facing stalker heavy compositions, always fly a factory on top of your army to mess with the AI.
Late game comp should have 5 or 6 ghosts, 3-4 vikings per enemy colossi, and rest in MMM with more marines if zealot heavy and more rauders if stalker heavy.
Also, drops with low energy medivacs during the attack work well obviously.
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simcity siege tanks
Please give good advises on this thread.
Siege tanks are the worst units ever aginst Zealot, and they cost A LOT. DON'T EVER DO TANKS against such an army. More Marines, EMP's, are the key to kil Zealots. And move only groups of units, when you kite don't move you whole army, do it slowly, that you can constantly shoot on the Zealots.
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Blue Flame hellions, whether you like it or not. Though i fail to see how mass Zealot can be effective without colossus/storm against a good ol' standard bioball simply because of kiting and engaging in good positions.
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Just watch the pros.
No pro goes for BFH, except when they go mech.
EMP, good kiting and a healthy marine count is the best way to go.
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well hellions are the easiest way but that is assuming you're going for them already and in which case the protoss has to be an idiot to go mass zealot.
more marines than marauders i guess
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It's pretty obvious that everyone saying blue flame doesn't have much experience actually playing Terran.
I've wrestled with the mass zealot problem myself in the past, and I thought the same way -- fast blue flame, swap the fac onto a reactor, and constantly produce blue flames off of it. But most of the time, the hellions ended up dying too quickly and only hitting 1-2 zealots while they were alive. Blue flames are effecive vs.zealot in exactly 2 situations:
1) If you're already going Mech or BioMech TvP and thusly have upgrades for them, blue flames en masse are your best option to protect your tanks vs. zealots
2) If you're going standard bio TvP, blue flame is good ONLY in the extreme early game, before Charge is done and makes it impossible to line up, and +1 zealot weapons make your hellions so much weaker in a straight up fight.
It would definitely be helpful to have a replay here -- if you lose to mass zealot, you likely either overmade marauders and didn't have quite enough marines, or you were at an upgrade disadvantage. In either case, if you see a Protoss maxing out on a terrible composition that's most effective in medium numbers and in open areas, turtle like a madman, take more expansions, and refuse to engage until you're maxed and upgraded. Use those scans to keep an eye on his composition so you know whether to make a bunch or a few vikings, always keep a handful of ghosts around, and push out at 200/200 while expanding like nuts and dropping to keep pressure on.
The protoss 200/200 deathball is scary when it's a nice stalker/colossus/templar/archon mix with just a few zealots to buffer, but when they're getting in the 30-40+ zealot count, you can more or less have your way with them at max. What they *want* is for you to push out with your typical 160-170 food push, get FF'd in half and raped by zealots, run home, and get the other half of your army raped by the counter. Just refuse to do what they want you to do, and this comp is pretty easy to take care of.
If you're looking for harder numbers -- shoot for a maxed out army with about a 3:2 marauder/marine ratio (yes this will be fine at 3/3 -- just 1 reactor rax making marines all game should suffice), a handful of medivacs (usually 8-10 at max point), maybe 5-6 ghosts for the EMP blanket, then add more ghosts if he's templar heavy, or a bunch of vikings if he went colo. Most of the pressure is on the Terran to react to what the Protoss does, so keep an eye on that composition so you know what to build, and you'll be in great shape.
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despite what some people are saying dont make mech units, they're terrible against toss
against mass or heavy zealot you need to abuse his lack of anti air
fly around with vikings trying to snipe collusion and drop EVERYWHERE
some people are saying go more marine heavy i disagree marines don't do much damage to fully armored zealots ghosts are totally the way to go because snipe and emp ignores upgrades
gl!
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On November 06 2011 15:13 perser84 wrote:ghost are the way to go i go 1st rax reactor then built 2nd one and built tech lab make marines and from 2nd rax marauder and uppgrade slow shells when 1st marauder is out i take my force add a woker to them and poke and rally other units them built 2nd gas add 3rd rax and ghost academy if he has expansion then try to make as much dmg as possbile immportant is that you get stim as soon slow shells is done if he is has no expansion then scan what he is doing normaly they go 3 gates or or 2 gates robo and guard the ramp with sentries if is that the case built ebay on their expansion but dont finish it built it to 95% if he dmg it you can aport it and get your money back by the time your 3rd rax is done and add another tech lab add 4 ghost +marines/ marauder and make a push at 10:00 if his army is zealot heavy dont worry ghost do 20 dmg to their amor and you have like 4-5 emp to win the fight and the game think about it if he has 5 zealot charging you and you make a emp to them you do 250 dmg to them you emp their sentires so they less effetive to cut your army toss army that get emped is so weak that you could win the fight without stim and like i said zealot sentries are light amor so you do 20 dmg with ghost vs them
That's really neat. Could you upload a replay for the benefit of TL Terrans and much to the chagrin of Protosses everywhere? :D
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to fight Chargelots, you have to use the terrain, create chokes with buildings and so on.
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upgraded zealots are HELL to deal with, especially late game. the ideal unit composition for the toss is a ton of zealots, a couple archons, a handful of stalkers, and constant ht/colossus combination and tech switch.
you absolutely need marines to deal with zealots (how many times have you seen gsl pros go marauder heavy and kite for days and the zealots are still alive). colossus/zealot or colosuss/ht composition (or all 3) is insane. gone are the days of colossus/stalker where you could just rape everything with marauder. you now need a good amount of marines to deal with the zealots.
however, here is the main reason why zealots are perfect in toss's unit composition. against zealots, you would ideally ball up and kite. this is to minimize surface area so the zealots can't do as much damage. zealots get much better if you spread out your units.
however, storm/colossus absolutely rapes marines, you only need to get 1 or 2 hits off before the marines are obliterated, so you don't wanna ball up. but if you spread, zealots will do even more damage. also when you kite, your army naturally balls up, while good against zealots, it'll get destroyed by storm/colosuss.
the hardest part is late game, where toss can have 2 or 3 robos, and can constantly tech switch from ht to colossus. you have a battle with toss and both sides reset to 120 food in the late game. it's hard for terran to really scout the tech switch, and if 3 colossus are being chronoboosted out, in no time there will be 6 colosuss out for the next battle that is happening in a few minutes. also once colossus and stalker get 3-3, u better damn well make sure you remembered to get your viking upgrades.
i don't think it's imba, but i do think it's really hard to go up against good late game toss player. it's frustrating to hear so many toss players think all you have to do is emp and win (far from it). the main thing is, you need a fine balance of marine/marauder, great micro, good scouting, and tons of experience.
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Battlecruisers baby. Lot's of battlecruisers.
If the protoss can afford collosi, you can afford BCs.
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On November 06 2011 22:49 Euronyme wrote:
Battlecruisers baby. Lot's of battlecruisers.
If the protoss can afford collosi, you can afford BCs.
Hahah funny that u are saying this, cause i just tried it yesterday when i was constantly a base ahead of the toss but couldnt break his defence. I builded 5 starports and surprised him with 6+ bc (2/2)while he had no stalker. He just laughed at me lost half his army, backed up, warped in 15 stalkers killed all my bcs and was fine=)
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On November 06 2011 13:44 StatX wrote:
If you post replays we can tell you where you went wrong.
The easiest way to undo speedlots is using emp with simcity siege tanks and marines. Try placing bunkers and/or rax in front of your units, the chargelots are nice but they tend to clump up and in a tight quarter, all your marines will be able to fight while the zealots wont be able to.
Its rare to see a zealot only army, they will usually be accompanied by archons or some void rays since they barely use gas at all if you count charge and upgrades. What's funny is you will soon see cheaper upgrades for zealots so you may want to get it under control right away.
What? No offence but this advice is quite awful. None uses chargelot+voidray at any remotely high level. And marine tank+sim city can probably make you survive some kind of weird chargelot all in, but protosses normally doesn't do chargelot allins either. Instead a lot of chargelots is simply part of their composition, and I doubt turtling in your simcitied base with tanks and marines is going to be a good choice then. (Especially as chargelots are really strong against marine+tank unless you have a wall in or a choke to help you.)
Instead as some have mentioned, having more marines is one good way to deal with chargelots. Another one is to try to only engage at points that are somewhat chokes.
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On November 06 2011 21:34 prOpSaiton wrote:
Blue Flame hellions, whether you like it or not. Though i fail to see how mass Zealot can be effective without colossus/storm against a good ol' standard bioball simply because of kiting and engaging in good positions.
Blueflame helions is not a good choice unless you go mech (which is not a good choice). Because you'll have no uppgrades at all and they'll be worthless against anything but chargelots which they'll be decent versus at best (if the chargelots got 3-3 and the blueflame helions 0-0, which is a likely scenario as you're supposed to uppgrade bio and vikings not mech as terran).
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BF hellions weren't even the answer before the BF nerf.
The best answer I have seen is really abusing drops and pick-ups using medivacs. Abuse the lack of stalkers, try and keep your medivac energy low so feedback doesn't kill them.
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I would say akalarry pretty much nailed it there, especially about the perfect late-game protoss composition. BUT the only thing I would have to disagree is
it's frustrating to hear so many toss players think all you have to do is emp and win (far from it)
It is frustrating because EMPs outrange Feedback. It is frustrating because HTs move slower than Ghosts. It is frustrating that Storms are hard to use when bio ball is kiting backwards because of slow move speed. It is frustrating that HTs have to be loaded into warp prisms to avoid getting EMP and also to be able to drop good storms off which takes hell lot of micro. It is frustrating to see colossi and archons (especially archons) without shields.
It is frustrating to see that Scan + Cloak + EMP is pretty much effortless to use while compared to using HTs. Chances are toss will screw up his HTs more often than you will screw up with your Ghosts, so yes it isn't that far from it.
Therefore my point is, get ghosts regardless of whether the protoss gets more colossi or HT (although remember to keep your vikings alive if possible to be able to handle a tech switch well). Reason being if the protoss is going to give you hell with chargelots, you give him more hell with his micro.
If you see a warp prism, target fire it down immediately with your vikings. Lastly, don't be stingy on those scans, don't let 1 or 2 rogue HTs catch you off-guard. Make sure you know where his army is, use vikings to scout the sides for HT/zealot flank before moving forward for the kill if you want to engage him.
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On November 06 2011 23:09 Nakama wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 22:49 Euronyme wrote:
Battlecruisers baby. Lot's of battlecruisers.
If the protoss can afford collosi, you can afford BCs. Hahah funny that u are saying this, cause i just tried it yesterday when i was constantly a base ahead of the toss but couldnt break his defence. I builded 5 starports and surprised him with 6+ bc (2/2)while he had no stalker. He just laughed at me lost half his army, backed up, warped in 15 stalkers killed all my bcs and was fine=)
Dude in no way 15 stalkers beat 6+ BCs ^_^ 2,5 stalkers don't beat a BC.
Plus if you walk in 6 collosi into 15 marauders, they're just dead too. Gotta keep 'em with your army!
I'm ofcourse totally theory crafting, as I don't play this style myself as protoss, but against a protoss with little AA it seems reasonable, right?
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all comes down to the micro, stutter stepping does so much. EMP is also immensely helpful since zealots are so tightly packed.
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Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything.
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy.
Nuff said.
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Wouldnt you die to storms if you start getting too marine heavy in the late game? Especially since protosses tend to go for templar tech in the late game/
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On November 07 2011 00:12 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 23:09 Nakama wrote:On November 06 2011 22:49 Euronyme wrote:
Battlecruisers baby. Lot's of battlecruisers.
If the protoss can afford collosi, you can afford BCs. Hahah funny that u are saying this, cause i just tried it yesterday when i was constantly a base ahead of the toss but couldnt break his defence. I builded 5 starports and surprised him with 6+ bc (2/2)while he had no stalker. He just laughed at me lost half his army, backed up, warped in 15 stalkers killed all my bcs and was fine=) Dude in no way 15 stalkers beat 6+ BCs ^_^ 2,5 stalkers don't beat a BC. Plus if you walk in 6 collosi into 15 marauders, they're just dead too. Gotta keep 'em with your army! I'm ofcourse totally theory crafting, as I don't play this style myself as protoss, but against a protoss with little AA it seems reasonable, right?
the moment u loose half of ur stalker u can warp in 15 new ones if u want i can upload the replay as a "proof" but there was rly no way to kill the toss with bc way too expensive and blink stalker just rape them in a solo fight and during a big battle their dps on zealots is way too low to make an impact
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On November 07 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:
Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything.
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy.
Nuff said.
What you just said didnt make any fucking sense
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lol terran bio is the easiest strategy in the game. just mass mmm and you will win 80% of game.
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On November 06 2011 22:38 Mobius_1 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 06 2011 15:13 perser84 wrote:ghost are the way to go i go 1st rax reactor then built 2nd one and built tech lab make marines and from 2nd rax marauder and uppgrade slow shells when 1st marauder is out i take my force add a woker to them and poke and rally other units them built 2nd gas add 3rd rax and ghost academy if he has expansion then try to make as much dmg as possbile immportant is that you get stim as soon slow shells is done if he is has no expansion then scan what he is doing normaly they go 3 gates or or 2 gates robo and guard the ramp with sentries if is that the case built ebay on their expansion but dont finish it built it to 95% if he dmg it you can aport it and get your money back by the time your 3rd rax is done and add another tech lab add 4 ghost +marines/ marauder and make a push at 10:00 if his army is zealot heavy dont worry ghost do 20 dmg to their amor and you have like 4-5 emp to win the fight and the game think about it if he has 5 zealot charging you and you make a emp to them you do 250 dmg to them you emp their sentires so they less effetive to cut your army toss army that get emped is so weak that you could win the fight without stim and like i said zealot sentries are light amor so you do 20 dmg with ghost vs them That's really neat. Could you upload a replay for the benefit of TL Terrans and much to the chagrin of Protosses everywhere? :D
sure i can do it after i sleeped a bit
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On November 06 2011 22:46 akalarry wrote:
upgraded zealots are HELL to deal with, especially late game. the ideal unit composition for the toss is a ton of zealots, a couple archons, a handful of stalkers, and constant ht/colossus combination and tech switch.
you absolutely need marines to deal with zealots (how many times have you seen gsl pros go marauder heavy and kite for days and the zealots are still alive). colossus/zealot or colosuss/ht composition (or all 3) is insane. gone are the days of colossus/stalker where you could just rape everything with marauder. you now need a good amount of marines to deal with the zealots.
however, here is the main reason why zealots are perfect in toss's unit composition. against zealots, you would ideally ball up and kite. this is to minimize surface area so the zealots can't do as much damage. zealots get much better if you spread out your units.
however, storm/colossus absolutely rapes marines, you only need to get 1 or 2 hits off before the marines are obliterated, so you don't wanna ball up. but if you spread, zealots will do even more damage. also when you kite, your army naturally balls up, while good against zealots, it'll get destroyed by storm/colosuss.
the hardest part is late game, where toss can have 2 or 3 robos, and can constantly tech switch from ht to colossus. you have a battle with toss and both sides reset to 120 food in the late game. it's hard for terran to really scout the tech switch, and if 3 colossus are being chronoboosted out, in no time there will be 6 colosuss out for the next battle that is happening in a few minutes. also once colossus and stalker get 3-3, u better damn well make sure you remembered to get your viking upgrades.
i don't think it's imba, but i do think it's really hard to go up against good late game toss player. it's frustrating to hear so many toss players think all you have to do is emp and win (far from it). the main thing is, you need a fine balance of marine/marauder, great micro, good scouting, and tons of experience.
I like this reply allot, I took to mind everything else said though. More drop heavy play and turtle style building placement, engage at 200 / 200. Building armor and Pf's ^_^. jj
Thanks everyone
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think they summed it up yesterday at asus stars tournament, terran just cannot deal with it without kiting, BFH are good, but getting that critical number is difficult, alot of marines, alot of emps and a few marauders with excellent kiting I believe is the only real way to counter a protoss who can reinforce mass zealots with 10+ gateways
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On November 07 2011 00:38 ThaSlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:
Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything.
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy.
Nuff said. What you just said didnt make any fucking sense
I can translate for you ->
Avoid giving the protoss surface area, zealots cluster up anyways, 2 emps can remove an entire zealot army shield. If you turtle behind a building wall, you can abuse zealot mobility by focusing on drop ship play every time the protoss moves out,
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On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar. Show nested quote +
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs.
User was warned for this post
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Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go.
This is simply untrue. Please watch pro games, no one gets blue flame hellions off a standard bio play when the Protoss goes chargezealots-heavy. And I guess this is not because they are micro-less “Diamond scrubs” ...
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On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs.
Actually, BF hellions get slaughtered by 3/3 chargelots. They are weak enough that zealots can just mow them down with charge. Unless you get into an ideal situation where your opponent is idiotic and keeps attacking into walled off chokes, you aren't going to get anywhere.
Besides, the amount of money you'll be spending on hellions is astronomical compared to what your opponent will be spending on zealots, since zealots die a lot slower.
Also, how do you plan on killing off buildings? Hellions don't work so well in that regard.
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On November 07 2011 02:37 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 00:38 ThaSlayer wrote:On November 07 2011 00:21 BeeNu wrote:
Mass Zealot style doesn't seem to be too difficult to handle. Just don't move your army out, keep macroing and expanding and setting up Supply Depot walls so the Protoss can never attack. After a while your bio ball will be too big for mass Zealot to surround and you basically auto win because you can just endlessly kite and kill everything.
So basically: macro up > build massive bio ball > steamroll the enemy.
Nuff said. What you just said didnt make any fucking sense I can translate for you -> Avoid giving the protoss surface area, zealots cluster up anyways, 2 emps can remove an entire zealot army shield. If you turtle behind a building wall, you can abuse zealot mobility by focusing on drop ship play every time the protoss moves out,
It really is amazing how much better an idea sounds when it's worded properly.
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On November 07 2011 05:08 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs. Actually, BF hellions get slaughtered by 3/3 chargelots. They are weak enough that zealots can just mow them down with charge. Unless you get into an ideal situation where your opponent is idiotic and keeps attacking into walled off chokes, you aren't going to get anywhere. Besides, the amount of money you'll be spending on hellions is astronomical compared to what your opponent will be spending on zealots, since zealots die a lot slower. Also, how do you plan on killing off buildings? Hellions don't work so well in that regard. Critical mass Helllions > Chargelots.
Nobody is telling you to go pure Hellions. Marauder/Hellion/Ghost army is what your looking for.
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On November 07 2011 05:31 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 05:08 Praetorial wrote:On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs. Actually, BF hellions get slaughtered by 3/3 chargelots. They are weak enough that zealots can just mow them down with charge. Unless you get into an ideal situation where your opponent is idiotic and keeps attacking into walled off chokes, you aren't going to get anywhere. Besides, the amount of money you'll be spending on hellions is astronomical compared to what your opponent will be spending on zealots, since zealots die a lot slower. Also, how do you plan on killing off buildings? Hellions don't work so well in that regard. Critical mass Helllions > Chargelots. Nobody is telling you to go pure Hellions. Marauder/Hellion/Ghost army is what your looking for.
Hellions have the problem of being a one tricky pony in this situation.
Even if all the Zealots die (and Chargelots tear through Hellions in a straight up fight) you'll be left with a bunch of Hellions that are terrible against anything else.
Zealots simply have so much health compared to the Hellion's damage (even with Blue Flame) that the amount of Hellions needed is detrimental to your army composition, you simply put too much into just killing Zealots and not killing anything else.
Ghosts can EMP but because of their cost they'll never be able to really contribute to killing Zealots outside of that EMP.
Marauders can kite Zealots but can't really kill them, the health vs damage ratio is too much in the favor of the Zealot.
Assuming equal upgrades you need 15 marauder shots to kill just one Zealot.
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On November 06 2011 13:39 ThisisRaider wrote:
I know that most Terran probably suffer from Mass Upgraded Speedlots also, but can anyone give me any helpfull advice when it comes to playing against this?
Maybe tell me how you guys respond to it personally.
I have brainstormed, tried BF Hellions with armor upgrades and 3-3 bio (lol)
Mass Marauder doesnt do too well unless you have enough room. ( you cant always choose where to fight ) More marines in the mix I guess works best, but too many will result in a squishy composition, especially when it comes to collosus in the mix.
The only way I beat mass speedlot 3-3 is with panic drops everywhere, (lol) or I just had a excellent engagement.
How about MORE Ghosts? Reapers ftw? I usually have about 8 Ghosts on a control group, but how about more? EMP / Mass Snipe and auto attack from Ghost / Marauder?
I have a replay but im not going to attach it, im just asking for general advice against a few stalker / Plenty Speedlots / few Collosus and maybe a archon or two. ( HT if it last I guess) Basicly Mass upgraded Speedlots! Damnit, I make it sound like the entire Protoss arsenal! ^_^
I did search, didnt find useful results. (surpringly)
Im using More Marine, Marauder, Medivac, few Ghost and Viking atm.
Any tips?
Im Top Platinum Terran.
Immo the game is ridiculous now. Only if perfect emp and zealots are clumped there is a chance for winning. Current reduction of upgrades'cost in PTR is an additional insult to terran. Just because MVP can stutter step 5 different groups of marines/marauder while emping and macroing, doesn't justify the fact the protoss has to only a-move in a favorable concave and terran is MELTED.
Immo late game is impossible to beat a good toss who is on equal expansions as the terran. Emp radius reduction is also ridiculous and unjustified. Carpet storm can be as dangerous as carpet emp, even more, as terran units are smaller and more fit into the same space.
I don't whine about balance, but it seems to me that the toss can stop EVERYTHING, even a double drop, just by warping the upgraded zealots that have an insane amount of health. In contrast, a warp prism on top your production in late game if your army is away also means insta loss.
So my advice to people struggling vs mass zealot/archon/ht/collo is to not allow the toss to reach this favorable combo. You can accomplish this via multiple drops and timing attacks. If things go into late game and on equal footing, you have 80%^lost the game, but if you want to continue, just make marines and ghosts and hope he attacks in a choke so you can emp a good clump of his zealots. Sometimes even this doesn't help though.
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On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs.
lol nice troll.
Good luck, since hellions die in storm, collsai, and chargelot battles.... and they do shit to archons, who 2 hit the hellions in AoE. Collsai WRECK hellions. Not to mention hellion marauder ghost is unremaxable if you lose a fight, as ghosts take years to build, marauders do DICK to zealots, and hellions are a laff. Good luck upgrading that too. Why don't you, mr GM (laff) post your account, and a replay, just one replay, of you going hellions against chargelot archon collsai Ht army.
Just ONE replay. =)
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It has to be said Chargelots are incredibly strong for their cost. I still haven't heard a single decent counter to them.
I mean stay in your base behind depots and bunkers is pretty good, but suicidal in the long run.
Mass marines and ghosts are pretty good, but if a mere handful of storms get through, or toss has colossi then you are utterly dead.
When ghosts get nerfed and upgrades are cheaper then I really expect to see a lot more cheese from terrans desperate to avoid chargelot/HT in the middle to late game.
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BFH are trash against chargelots. Post one replay of mara+BFH working, or stop posting.
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Please upload the replay, very doubtful that you lost just due to army composition.
If your problem is unit composition, marines are the answer, with a few marauders, more like a 3:1 ratio of marines to marauders, this allows you to get a high ghost count quite quickly, and ghosts actually do a ton of damage with emp per cost, and their straight up DPS vs light ain't too bad either. As far as army control goes, try to EMP before the engage while toss's army is stacked up pretty tight, cloak can be quite nice for this, once the EMP's are off, scan back to see if there's any storms coming in, if there are, queue up 2 snipes per HT to take them out before they can destroy everything.
Stim your army, spread it out, and then control click the marines, and kite them back behind the marauders, this will make such a big difference you will be surprised.
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pre-positioning your marauders infront of your marines (mainly a marine army) can get you a surprisingly better outcome of an engagement, with a decent amount of medivacs for them, im only low master but this does help against it. Not a definitive answer, no, but it's just a micro trick that might tilt things more back in your favor. If all the templars are emp'd, snipe is also nifty after EMP.
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On November 07 2011 08:06 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 04:49 ZiegFeld wrote:On November 06 2011 16:29 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 06 2011 16:20 ZiegFeld wrote:
BF Hellions. No other way around it. You said, in another thread, you're 'top 50 GM' and then you say blue flame hellions. Yeaaaaaaaa..... blue flame hellions definitly don't do it against chargelots with upgrades. Hellions good to harass, but in straight up combat take too much baby sitting, and you have to be kiting as well so good luck getting side shots. And if it's 'no other way around it' why doesn't ANY terran get blue flame hellions? So, in a round about way -- I'm calling you a liar.
"I'm Master league I'm Master league"
Calm down I was top 50 GM league and I've microed FAR worse than this. I like the guide, but this build just doesn't really have potential. This is a gimmicky one in a while build at best, and pretty much relies on surprising the opponent. Just one step above cheese.
Doesn't matter what you think, BF Hellions is the only way to go. It may be too much micro for scrubs like you, but if you want to stay in Diamond then keep massing Marines with Archons and HTs. lol nice troll. Good luck, since hellions die in storm, collsai, and chargelot battles.... and they do shit to archons, who 2 hit the hellions in AoE. Collsai WRECK hellions. Not to mention hellion marauder ghost is unremaxable if you lose a fight, as ghosts take years to build, marauders do DICK to zealots, and hellions are a laff. Good luck upgrading that too. Why don't you, mr GM (laff) post your account, and a replay, just one replay, of you going hellions against chargelot archon collsai Ht army. Just ONE replay. =) I guess it's worth making you cry.
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20968576/Tal'darim Altar LE (4).SC2Replay.
Blue Flame against Immortals/Stalkers/Colossus/Chargelots/HTs. Can't touch it.
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Should be:
Blue Flame and Siege Tanks against Immortals/Stalkers/Colossus/Chargelots/HTs. Can't touch it.
What kind of player runs straight into a full tank line on high ground! Also your mech build is really at least 50/50 tank focused - and really the tanks and positioning did a lot of the work in killing, well, everything in that game. I don't know how good hellions in MMM would be since the upgrades don't match, and the replay does little to convince me in that regard.
I'll gladly say mech v P is cool. However it seemed that that even with center map control everything else was rather vulnerable to counterattack (esp. on this map) which the P failed to push as the game progressed, not a lot of pressure on the protoss with this build minus hellions either.
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mariners and emps is all u need
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I've yet to see a top level game where zealots are winning the game against terran. It probably IS something that is difficult to deal with, but it's not as if Protoss has not experienced abusive strats from Terran that are simple to pull off early game. Let's see how Protoss doess in the upcoming GSL.
As is, I still believe a top level terran would defeat a top level protoss player at the highest levels.
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Hmm, interesting thread. I've played against 3/3 lots as well and find it herrendously troublesome. I have won against it with upgraded bio, it's just that;
1. You have to drop and harass like a mad man.
2. You need to kite your ass off
I understand you need concussive and at least 3/0 bio to deal with this. But what I want to know is, what is the best marine/marauder ratio?
Personally, I find 2 marines to every 1 marauder is great... but do I have the wrong raito in my composition? I still find it difficult as hell to deal with it.
A tactic I have tried lately, is to get a thor out for chargelot bait so I can get a decent emp off. This has paid off big time, however I'm not sure if this is just gimmicky when there could be an easier solution.
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Mass Zealot / Archon / HT is the reason I play mech now, and also the reason blizzard is giving us the new Hellion Transformation in Heart of the Swarm.
If you don't want to play mech, then I suggest picking where you engage carefull, and setting up a good arch and force the zealots into a choke point, and then land good EMPs. You say that you can't always pick where you engage, but I would disagree. Picking where you engage is one of the most important things, perhaps MORE important than unit composition.
Some tricks you can try: floating your factory for scouting, so you are sure to engage in a favorable spot. Also, you can land your factory to create a choke point & force the zealots to charge something OTHER than your army. Or if you can't get your factory in place in time, a mule can force a premature charge from zealots
Here's the link to a Mech Guide.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268023
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I'd also like to note, that although you don't see pros use hellions very often in the matchup, equally upgraded BFHs trade favorably with stalkers in mid-large numbers, and trade just about equally against blink stalkers. It should go without saying that BFHs are good vs zealots sentries HTs and DTs (all light units), so BFHs are actually a great unit to counter any type of mass gateway play. Furthermore, hellions are much faster, larger, and durable than marines, making them better at avoiding/absorbing the splash of Storm / Colossus.
With all that said, it appears than hellions are a great unit vs. any protoss ground army. Obviously you won't go pure hellions, so how you choose to support your hellion army is up to you, but I prefer Hellion Tank Ghost Viking as my core units. *sometimes late game I'll have 3+ techlabd barracks for ghosts, and I'll make a few rounds of marauders just to deal with annoying stalkers and support with concussive shell (zealots).
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Immo the game is ridiculous now. Only if perfect emp and zealots are clumped there is a chance for winning. Current reduction of upgrades'cost in PTR is an additional insult to terran. Just because MVP can stutter step 5 different groups of marines/marauder while emping and macroing, doesn't justify the fact the protoss has to only a-move in a favorable concave and terran is MELTED.
Immo late game is impossible to beat a good toss who is on equal expansions as the terran. Emp radius reduction is also ridiculous and unjustified. Carpet storm can be as dangerous as carpet emp, even more, as terran units are smaller and more fit into the same space.
I don't whine about balance, but it seems to me that the toss can stop EVERYTHING, even a double drop, just by warping the upgraded zealots that have an insane amount of health. In contrast, a warp prism on top your production in late game if your army is away also means insta loss.
So my advice to people struggling vs mass zealot/archon/ht/collo is to not allow the toss to reach this favorable combo. You can accomplish this via multiple drops and timing attacks. If things go into late game and on equal footing, you have 80%^lost the game, but if you want to continue, just make marines and ghosts and hope he attacks in a choke so you can emp a good clump of his zealots. Sometimes even this doesn't help though.
You've got it back to front . It's impossible for Protoss to beat Terran in the late game (Evidence: every pro match that goes to the late-game where Terran doesn't make huge mistakes). Zealots are the Protoss ground unit of choice, supported by HTs (which should never get a Storm off with the current EMP radius), Archons (which die INSTANTLY because of EMP) and Colossi (which you shouldn't be letting Protoss build without also building a good number of stalkers, Vikings don't have to be in control group 1 with the rest of your army, FYI).
If you let Protoss build any decent sized number of Colossi when he's massing chargelots, you deserve to die, so I won't cover that (FYI, pure Chargelot/Colossi still dies to MMMV, but requires pretty good Terran micro).
If he's going HT/Chargelot we've already covered how easy it is to EMP (Ghosts see further, have more range and are faster than HT) so all that's left is KITING. In a direct engagement it's absolutely VITAL for the Terran player to be constantly kiting with his MM ball. It's something that is very easy to do (obviously it's made harder if you also want to land all of your mid-battle EMPs and keep up with your macro). You don't need (in fact doing this is a terrible idea) to be splitting your units (unless you have no ghosts and he has HT in range), you just need to stutter-step. It's the easiest micro technique in the game. 1, t, a, click, right-click, s, right-click, etc.
Also, There's no possible way Protoss can warp in enough units to deal with a double-drop unless you have just traded armies in the late game (and if you force him to warp units in out of position at this point, why bother continuing the drop?).
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On November 06 2011 21:34 prOpSaiton wrote:
Blue Flame hellions, whether you like it or not. Though i fail to see how mass Zealot can be effective without colossus/storm against a good ol' standard bioball simply because of kiting and engaging in good positions.
Upgraded chargelots will kill BF hellions any day. They are nice to incorporate if you are playing mechs but without upgrades, BF fall off the grid fast. Also, vikings were mentioned but they have to land to hit zealots and if you split upgrades, you will fall behind the protoss.
Really, the easiest way to handle this is simply more marineswith a few ghosts to emp (even their basic attack deals decent damage to zealots...).
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I found out, after many loses, to always engage the Toss army as near his base as possible (bio army). That way you can kite all the way back to your base, and hopefully there will be reinforcements back there. Wear him out, and force FF. Keep dropping him early, so that he remains in his base. The further from your base you engage (with kiting), the more you will wear him out (you have medivacs to heal). Keep trading so that he won't get the perfect 3-3-3 deathball and A move.
[Edit] Just don't get caught by FF, anticipate them...
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On November 07 2011 09:32 Ktk wrote:Should be: Show nested quote +Blue Flame and Siege Tanks against Immortals/Stalkers/Colossus/Chargelots/HTs. Can't touch it. What kind of player runs straight into a full tank line on high ground! Also your mech build is really at least 50/50 tank focused - and really the tanks and positioning did a lot of the work in killing, well, everything in that game. I don't know how good hellions in MMM would be since the upgrades don't match, and the replay does little to convince me in that regard. I'll gladly say mech v P is cool. However it seemed that that even with center map control everything else was rather vulnerable to counterattack (esp. on this map) which the P failed to push as the game progressed, not a lot of pressure on the protoss with this build minus hellions either. Well, it's Mech, so of course the Tanks are doing the killing. But the Hellions keep everything in check and melt Zealots.
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Best method is a higher rine to rauder ratio, with mass emp's. Main issue with this is you need more reactors on your rax which makes swapping back over to mass rauders harder when protoss do the switch back to colossus, or heavy archon / storm. Marine ghost is amazing vs a lot of the zealot heavy toss mixes.
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On November 07 2011 10:44 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +Immo the game is ridiculous now. Only if perfect emp and zealots are clumped there is a chance for winning. Current reduction of upgrades'cost in PTR is an additional insult to terran. Just because MVP can stutter step 5 different groups of marines/marauder while emping and macroing, doesn't justify the fact the protoss has to only a-move in a favorable concave and terran is MELTED.
Immo late game is impossible to beat a good toss who is on equal expansions as the terran. Emp radius reduction is also ridiculous and unjustified. Carpet storm can be as dangerous as carpet emp, even more, as terran units are smaller and more fit into the same space.
I don't whine about balance, but it seems to me that the toss can stop EVERYTHING, even a double drop, just by warping the upgraded zealots that have an insane amount of health. In contrast, a warp prism on top your production in late game if your army is away also means insta loss.
So my advice to people struggling vs mass zealot/archon/ht/collo is to not allow the toss to reach this favorable combo. You can accomplish this via multiple drops and timing attacks. If things go into late game and on equal footing, you have 80%^lost the game, but if you want to continue, just make marines and ghosts and hope he attacks in a choke so you can emp a good clump of his zealots. Sometimes even this doesn't help though. You've got it back to front . It's impossible for Protoss to beat Terran in the late game (Evidence: every pro match that goes to the late-game where Terran doesn't make huge mistakes). Zealots are the Protoss ground unit of choice, supported by HTs (which should never get a Storm off with the current EMP radius), Archons (which die INSTANTLY because of EMP) and Colossi (which you shouldn't be letting Protoss build without also building a good number of stalkers, Vikings don't have to be in control group 1 with the rest of your army, FYI). If you let Protoss build any decent sized number of Colossi when he's massing chargelots, you deserve to die, so I won't cover that (FYI, pure Chargelot/Colossi still dies to MMMV, but requires pretty good Terran micro). If he's going HT/Chargelot we've already covered how easy it is to EMP (Ghosts see further, have more range and are faster than HT) so all that's left is KITING. In a direct engagement it's absolutely VITAL for the Terran player to be constantly kiting with his MM ball. It's something that is very easy to do (obviously it's made harder if you also want to land all of your mid-battle EMPs and keep up with your macro). You don't need (in fact doing this is a terrible idea) to be splitting your units (unless you have no ghosts and he has HT in range), you just need to stutter-step. It's the easiest micro technique in the game. 1, t, a, click, right-click, s, right-click, etc. Also, There's no possible way Protoss can warp in enough units to deal with a double-drop unless you have just traded armies in the late game (and if you force him to warp units in out of position at this point, why bother continuing the drop?).
Wow, new worst post of the year imo
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One thing I'd like to note about stutter stepping.
It *may* be relatively simple to execute, but it requires all of your attention to keep doing it.
You cannot macro or micro much of anything else whilst you're kiting the Zealots.
Each Zealot has so much HP relative to the damage from Bio that it takes a long time to kill a Chargelot ball.
Perhaps mass tank is something worth looking into. Just because 3-5 tanks get wasted by Chargelots doesn't mean 12+ tanks will suffer from the same.
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If stutter stepping is the easiest micro technique what is the hardest?
Many people think they are perfect at it while in reality they do it at half speed and cant do anything else like controlling vikings at the same time.
Seriously I can control a Protoss deathball while drunk no problem, whats so hard about that.
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I've gone zealot against marauder many times, but it always seems that the marauders can kite FOREVER. Especially with medivacs. I'd just pump more marines, really, try to keep your army as clumped as possible, and roll out in a literal ball. The more surface area you give to your opponent charging, means more time that they can hit.
When they are attacking, the zealots charge and hit atleast once, but if you make them charge ontop of eachother to create a hold on your ball of units, you're able to move away alot easier.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
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As a Protoss player, make sure you have a marine heavy composition and that you pick where you fight. If you have no room to kite, then guardian shield, armour upgrades, collosus/archon/storm are going to hack you to bits while your bio flails inneffectually against my Zealots. Hence why you should be dropping every 9 seconds. Map control 
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I'm starting to ladder ALOT against this army composition now. There are a few things I have realised;
1. You usualy can't get ghosts out in time to really be effecient. I'm finding toss will attack you as soon as that 1st Collossi pops. If not attack, just apply pressure.
2. "Continously Dropping," I've found most of these compositions do have a splash of stalkers in them... However they won't have enough to cover all holes in their base. I will actually drop dead straight on top of stalkers as long as I know there is no more then 3 of them below me. I find it really easy to drop with Protoss who have this composition as my fist gold is to get them to spread what stalkers they have around their base as much as possible. If you can keep the stalker count down, it just makes it even easier to snipe the collossi with your vikings and because they don't have many stalkers, you don't need much of a viking count. Believe it or not, I just played a ladder game against this composition where I took out 6 collossi with 6 vikings! LOL!
So I'm finding as long as you are aggressive with your medivacs and don't let them die, you are continously keeping Toss on their toes. Pick stalkers off at every given opportunity, it definately makes things easier later on.
So keeping in mind you now have stalkers and Collossi sorted, your only worry now is the mass zealots! I've changed to 3 marines to every 1 marauder and it's starting to work wonders! You can just literally just a move your vikings to any stray collossi thats left over while you can concentrate kiting your bio!
I agree, you can go hellions.... but why? Hellions only attack ground and IMO it takes much more micro then what it does marines in regards to utilising the unit against zealots. Not to mention, marines can also attack air and hellions cannot. Hellions would not be my unit of choice against this composition.
In conclusion, I think as longs as you can keep to protosses AA to a minmum it keeps your options open in regards to constant harass, keeping this toss in his base and finally when it comes to the final engagment... more room to spend time microing your bio as you can literally just a move your vikings (no need to worry about unit placement ect.)
In writing all of this, I'm probably completely wrong..... but it's working for me in the meantime.
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On November 07 2011 22:03 secretary bird wrote:
If stutter stepping is the easiest micro technique what is the hardest?
Many people think they are perfect at it while in reality they do it at half speed and cant do anything else like controlling vikings at the same time.
Seriously I can control a Protoss deathball while drunk no problem, whats so hard about that.
Marine splitting vs Banelings is pretty frickin' hard (but wicked fun when you do it right). Kiting/Stutter stepping is something my silver league buddies can do (obviously at varying levels of competency, but mostly quite well) .
As I mentioned stutter-step kiting WHILST controlling other units is pretty hard. However vs heavy chargelot compositions the kiting is way more important than anything else (you can EMP at the start of the battle and shift-queue focus fire your vikings at the start also, hell even a-moving them won't make that much difference).
Nothing too hard about a Protoss "deathball". Just gotta micro your HT-filled warp prism around (this is the only hard bit, most players don't bother), storm, feedback, guardian shield, move your Colossi around and focus fire with any immortals or stalkers. More cerebral than terran micro, but mechanically much easier.
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I really dont't understand why you all hate on Helions so much, I am pretty sure very few of you ever tried them against Toss..
I am a Master Toss on EU and I rarely ever see Helions, although I always go Chargelot/Archon. Yesterday someone got Helions against me, he killed SO MANY Chargelots with them.
It didn't matter because I was like 40 Supply ahead but still I realized how good they can be with decent kiting. You need 5 shots to kill a Zealot even with EMP, but if he goes mass Chargelots you will hit 2-4 Zealots per shot, that is equal to two-shotting a Zealot with a Unit of the same cost/lower building time(lol... really Blizzard!?). don't understand all the "QQ Helions can't do anything"
Sure you can not use 4 Helions to kill 30 Zealots like you do against workers (sometimes) but they still are well worth it IMO.
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On November 06 2011 14:43 althaz wrote:Replay? However, a Protoss player that skimps on Stalkers (which suck) in favour of more Zealots should, simply put, never have any Colossi. You can be a lot more active with your Vikings because without a significant number of Stalkers (which impacts both his upgrades and zealot count) you can mostly just fly around and shoot down any Colossi you see. It's also important to keep up with your stutter step. On composition you've already hit the nail on the head, more marines is good . He won't have many Colossi if you are being active with your vikings and any HTs should be EMPed ASAP.
This.
Key is adapting the number of marines to his stalker count. Once he is down on less than 10 stalkers you can just A-move vikings on the collosus (watch for storm). General rule is 2 vikings per collo. Kiting gives you time to snipe the collosus so choose engagement point carefully.
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EPT
