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Chackle
United Kingdom204 Posts
If you scout a bunker up or no expand and you want to do damage with your first push throw down a banenest and kill the depot with your roaches and run your banes into the bunker. If the Terran has scvs around the bunker you'll kill those easily and the bunker too. If the Terran expands after a hellion push I tend to just win the game with roach and lings | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 13 2011 15:36 Fuhrmaaj wrote: I agree with you. I was asking because I wanted Tang's opinion on this; I don't see this to be a style which could be a standard style or win a Bo5 with every game. I'm not sure exactly what the opponents do wrong, but there were games (like against Avilo) where there were a lot of bunkers and Tang still managed to pull off the win. In my opinion, the problem is likely a combination of not scouting roaches and the fact that roaches do well against the hellions that the opponents produced in all of these games. I think marines in bunkers alone could hold the first all in and marine/tank should be able to handle the rest. This style doesn't exploit the macro advantages of the zerg race to their fullest either. I think that it might be incorrect to go for the 3 tank timing attack at 10 minutes. Just expand and then mass tanks and expand again. If the opponent commits to an engagement at any point, the terran should come out pretty far ahead. Terran doesn't need to attack because zerg isn't taking a lot of bases, powering drones or teching. Why bother attacking if you're already ahead? Anyhow, I would still like to see what Tang thinks if he sees this I honestly think you could do the roach/ling opening in every BO5 and win, as long as you have solid transitions and game-sense. You can also do things like open DRG style 7roach aggression while taking a fast third, or doing a 16hatch opening into macro, etc. to mix it up/metagame in a BO5. I don't think people's goal as an SC2 player should be to create a single build/style to use in every game that beats everything, in my eyes much stronger to be flexible zerg like Nestea than a straight-up macro zerg. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On November 15 2011 18:16 Belial88 wrote: It'd be really helpful if you supplied replays. Against reactor hellion, you should always sac an overlord. While 90% of the time it's just standard macro follow-up into rine/tank jazz, if they throw an extra factory down, you need to know and an overlord will see it, as if they commit to hellions, they won't have more than 2 marines and you should get a clue (double gas, tech lab fact, no marines, no tech lab on rax, etc). Against reactor hellion my response is 2-3 spines. You can come really far ahead in economy against reactor hellion if they do zero damage and make more than 2 hellions. DRG also has a cute build where at 28 supply, you throw a roach warren down. This relies on you making gas at least at 20 (or continue mining it after speedling opening), and you don't make any more drones (or a few, depending how aggressive you want to be) and push with ~10 roaches popping all at once. Generally you throw down that 28 warren, make 3 overlords, make like 10 roaches with 750/250 banked up and the supply clear at 28/44. If the terran made more than 4 hellions, he WILL take damage, and if he makes too many hellions or no bunkers with marauders quickly pumped out, he will straight up die. Now I think it's an unreliable, coinflip build. For a short while I always did it against rax/gas, but if Terran only makes 2 hellions, you will get fucking crushed and be soooo far behind since you only have around 23 drones in all of this. You can also end up behind even if he makes lots of hellions, and when you push out he simply swaps and makes a tank and marauder and bunker in time when you arrive, particularly on larger maps. It's a good coinflip though, you'll almost always at least break even, if not come out ahead. Another problem is that your first roaches won't come out in time to meet the first 2-4 hellions, so you will loser drones if you don't make 2-3 spines the same time you make a warren, which further hurts your econ (you could transfer all of them right when warren pops, and then retransfer back to natural when roaches pop to make sure no hellion damage, the timing is very tight). Anyways, I stopped doing it because I realized "holy shit if I just make 1 spine and add 2 more incrementally and purely drone up, I will be way ahead of a hellion expand". So whatever. You absolutely need roaches if he has double factory or blue flame. You can confirm this just with an overlord sac, which you MUST do. Always confirm what's going on behind a hellion expand! (Or reaper expand too, he could just not be expanding and going 5 rax reaper, that will kill you if you dont have 5+ roaches out, spines and ling/bane dont hold it even, even after the nerfs). Also, if he has 'too many hellions' than you are used to seeing (your masters, you should have that sense by now) then get a roach warren and a few spines. You should be able to intuitively tell that "whoa thats more hellions than from a hellion expand, something isn't right here". 3 spines holds off any hellion opening long enough for you to identify 'hey thats' 20 fucking hellions in front of my base' to which you make 2 more, and 5 is enough to really hold anything. There's a game with idra vs.... someone, I think at mlg, where they go triple reactor hellion (i think mkp? i dont recall) and he actually waited for mutas (yea that long) and relied on something like 5-6 spines. Spines do really well against hellions. I recommend you make a 3nd queen at least before 30 supply, and have her sit on the ramp against hellion play, so if he tries to run up the ramp, you can call your other 2 queens over to block it. Hellion play is largely about getting up the ramp, with 3 queens you should never have hellions run up unless you aren't paying attention, to which it's your own fault. Approved by DRG! | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:47 fezvez wrote: I would like to quote a very interesting post from Belial88 in a post about counters to hellion openings + Show Spoiler + On November 15 2011 18:16 Belial88 wrote: It'd be really helpful if you supplied replays. Against reactor hellion, you should always sac an overlord. While 90% of the time it's just standard macro follow-up into rine/tank jazz, if they throw an extra factory down, you need to know and an overlord will see it, as if they commit to hellions, they won't have more than 2 marines and you should get a clue (double gas, tech lab fact, no marines, no tech lab on rax, etc). Against reactor hellion my response is 2-3 spines. You can come really far ahead in economy against reactor hellion if they do zero damage and make more than 2 hellions. DRG also has a cute build where at 28 supply, you throw a roach warren down. This relies on you making gas at least at 20 (or continue mining it after speedling opening), and you don't make any more drones (or a few, depending how aggressive you want to be) and push with ~10 roaches popping all at once. Generally you throw down that 28 warren, make 3 overlords, make like 10 roaches with 750/250 banked up and the supply clear at 28/44. If the terran made more than 4 hellions, he WILL take damage, and if he makes too many hellions or no bunkers with marauders quickly pumped out, he will straight up die. Now I think it's an unreliable, coinflip build. For a short while I always did it against rax/gas, but if Terran only makes 2 hellions, you will get fucking crushed and be soooo far behind since you only have around 23 drones in all of this. You can also end up behind even if he makes lots of hellions, and when you push out he simply swaps and makes a tank and marauder and bunker in time when you arrive, particularly on larger maps. It's a good coinflip though, you'll almost always at least break even, if not come out ahead. Another problem is that your first roaches won't come out in time to meet the first 2-4 hellions, so you will loser drones if you don't make 2-3 spines the same time you make a warren, which further hurts your econ (you could transfer all of them right when warren pops, and then retransfer back to natural when roaches pop to make sure no hellion damage, the timing is very tight). Anyways, I stopped doing it because I realized "holy shit if I just make 1 spine and add 2 more incrementally and purely drone up, I will be way ahead of a hellion expand". So whatever. You absolutely need roaches if he has double factory or blue flame. You can confirm this just with an overlord sac, which you MUST do. Always confirm what's going on behind a hellion expand! (Or reaper expand too, he could just not be expanding and going 5 rax reaper, that will kill you if you dont have 5+ roaches out, spines and ling/bane dont hold it even, even after the nerfs). Also, if he has 'too many hellions' than you are used to seeing (your masters, you should have that sense by now) then get a roach warren and a few spines. You should be able to intuitively tell that "whoa thats more hellions than from a hellion expand, something isn't right here". 3 spines holds off any hellion opening long enough for you to identify 'hey thats' 20 fucking hellions in front of my base' to which you make 2 more, and 5 is enough to really hold anything. There's a game with idra vs.... someone, I think at mlg, where they go triple reactor hellion (i think mkp? i dont recall) and he actually waited for mutas (yea that long) and relied on something like 5-6 spines. Spines do really well against hellions. I recommend you make a 3nd queen at least before 30 supply, and have her sit on the ramp against hellion play, so if he tries to run up the ramp, you can call your other 2 queens over to block it. Hellion play is largely about getting up the ramp, with 3 queens you should never have hellions run up unless you aren't paying attention, to which it's your own fault. Approved by DRG! Very interesting post! I open roaches almost every time my opponent opens hellions because it gives me the option to pressure back. | ||
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rodriwinner
Chile4 Posts
http://www.sc2planner.com/#ZaaajaaaaaaoAaaoDoFcaaaajhhkkaaajafoHafuDjjffllllllllfkkkkkkfkkjfaaaaaaafaoDoDoBoGjfccoLfuMaaaaaafjafaaauHuGjjafaaaaflllllllllfljjfjkkkkkkkkkkfkkkkkkkkfkttttttttttttttttttttfoAoDoGfoMaaaaaaacuNuSffoCjjuFjffp3ahaaaaaaaaaaaoDoDaaaaaaaaaafcaacfjjjfoOjfjjjjfffvvvvvvfuOfuLllkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkfuTkkkkkfkkktttttfttttttttttttoAttfttttttfttttf | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On November 13 2011 21:10 Chackle wrote: Some things I've found really useful when doing this build : If you scout a bunker up or no expand and you want to do damage with your first push throw down a banenest and kill the depot with your roaches and run your banes into the bunker. If the Terran has scvs around the bunker you'll kill those easily and the bunker too. If the Terran expands after a hellion push I tend to just win the game with roach and lings Interestingly, I've been working on a style that builds a baneling nest right after you start the 8 roaches. Then, when you're streaming in zerglings onto the roaches you turn 6 into banelings to bust the bunker/workers. It has been very effective so-far, but it is more of an economic commitment and cuts into your mid-game drone saturation. | ||
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forevernerdy
England31 Posts
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vvhiterice
Canada12 Posts
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
Regardless of the damage I do I always transition into a third base as I push and drone while teching towards mutas. Which always feel wonky unless I've done a ton of damage already in the initial aggressive push, but obviously the game becomes a steam roll in that case. In most cases I barely make the timing (a lot of terrans scout my roaches as they pop out and get bunkers up), especially on maps with long distances so the damage I do usually isn't as much as I would like. Is transitioning into a macro muta style viable with this opening or am I going to have to follow up with the second bust? | ||
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forevernerdy
England31 Posts
On December 01 2011 08:15 Snuggles wrote: In the games I've been successful so far using this type of style I have a little trouble hammering out my transitions. Sometimes I don't do a lot of damage, but at the same time I haven't sacrificed all my units and begin droning very heavily. Regardless of the damage I do I always transition into a third base as I push and drone while teching towards mutas. Which always feel wonky unless I've done a ton of damage already in the initial aggressive push, but obviously the game becomes a steam roll in that case. In most cases I barely make the timing (a lot of terrans scout my roaches as they pop out and get bunkers up), especially on maps with long distances so the damage I do usually isn't as much as I would like. Is transitioning into a macro muta style viable with this opening or am I going to have to follow up with the second bust? i played against this style on ladder the other day, the guy went for the early push at around 7:30 and i assumed it was all-in so im like haha ill take my expansion and crush him in midgame with a tank marine push. then i go for the push, get tramplestomped by speed roaches and speed banes and he a-moves into my natural and GG. i think the second push is actually the strongest part of this build order | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 01 2011 08:15 Snuggles wrote: In the games I've been successful so far using this type of style I have a little trouble hammering out my transitions. Sometimes I don't do a lot of damage, but at the same time I haven't sacrificed all my units and begin droning very heavily. Regardless of the damage I do I always transition into a third base as I push and drone while teching towards mutas. Which always feel wonky unless I've done a ton of damage already in the initial aggressive push, but obviously the game becomes a steam roll in that case. In most cases I barely make the timing (a lot of terrans scout my roaches as they pop out and get bunkers up), especially on maps with long distances so the damage I do usually isn't as much as I would like. Is transitioning into a macro muta style viable with this opening or am I going to have to follow up with the second bust? The first push does not have to do damage for you to be in a good spot to win the game. It's highly likely to do damage, but it's certainly possible for your opponent to have such a good defense that you decide not to engage at all. In these cases, it's important to 1) Find out when they're expanding with ling scout 2) Find out when they're pushing out by having a ling "spotter" outside their natural 3) Drone HARD to catch back up - you'll delay their expansion, but if you do no damage, the only way to make up for the investment of units is to use the units you have defensively while you drone hard to 2 fully saturated bases. Now there's a few options once you reach 2base saturation. The option I think is strongest is the second phase of the bust with roach/ling/baneling, because you already have a roach warren and likely some roaches left over. The push seems to make the most effective use of your tech structures, left-over units, and the fact you're on 2 bases. You can just go right for a 3rd base, drone up, and get an evolution chamber, baneling nest and lair, moving into "standard" ling/bane/muta. The problem is your terran opponent will likely counter attack some point(in fact, the first push almost instigates a counter-attack). In the face of this counter attack, would you rather have 1) ling/baneling with a spire building or have a big ling/bane/roach army with speed ready to crush his attack and then counter yourself? It's a stylistic choice, but I've found that with solid timings and execution the second roach/ling/baneling push wins the majority of the time and if it doesn't, you'll at least reset his tank/unit count, substantially reducing the size of any mid-game push which gives you time to drone up and expand. | ||
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greymason
United States5 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 02 2011 06:50 greymason wrote: Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead. If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire. | ||
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forevernerdy
England31 Posts
On December 02 2011 11:06 TangSC wrote: If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire. what if he does like a 1/1/1 and walls in with the big buildings with a tank behind it, then there would be no way to break in, and then banshees or drops would do so much damage because your lair and spire are so late | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 05 2011 11:40 forevernerdy wrote: what if he does like a 1/1/1 and walls in with the big buildings with a tank behind it, then there would be no way to break in, and then banshees or drops would do so much damage because your lair and spire are so late I would simply pull back my first push back and play defensively (hopefully kill a few repairing SCVs but even if not) then do the second phase of the bust at 11:30 when he has a natural and is more spread out. Roach/ling/baneling with creep can hold off any midgame push or drop harass. Then when he pushes you can just crush it and counterattack or if he doesn't push you can either bust his natural or take a 3rd. | ||
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iMMortaL.797
United States94 Posts
-________- uhmmmmmmm the 7RR was made a long time ago. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1242 Posts
On November 10 2011 10:14 TangSC wrote: It's not at all that way if you take the time to structure and perfect your build orders! The point of multiple aggressive timing attacks is the execution greatly increases your mechanical skills: Larva injects, unit production, rally points, unit control, multitasking, etc. Then playing long drawn out macro games must increase it by even more. | ||
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iMMortaL.797
United States94 Posts
9 OL 14 Gas 14 Pool 16 OL @100% Pool: Queen + pair of lings + OL @100 Gas: Ling Speed @35/50 on Queen building: Roach Warren @175 Gas: Take drones off gas @100% Warren: 7 Roaches + OL Go straight to opponents base with 7 Roaches + 2 Lings, the next round of 12 lings will arrive before you get to opponent's base, even on XNC. | ||
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iMMortaL.797
United States94 Posts
IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH ALL IN | ||
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