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Hello,
I've recently played few games in which I noticed I was getting outupgraded. For example zerg who goes for 2 evos 1/1 or protoss who gets 2 forges and mass chrono boosts upgrades and makes a timing when he hits certain upgrades. This led to me wonder what is the correct way to upgrade? From all the replays and games I've watched it seems like everyone gets 1 engineering bay before getting a 3rd and start getting +1 atk and followed by +1 def. Only after being 1/1, they add another engineering bay and go for 2/2. Why don't terrans go for double engineering bay? Claiming it puts your infrastructure behind or cuts into units is equal to all races.
So basicaly here are my questions:
Assuming going only 1 engineering bay is best, what do I do against opponents who go for 2 upgrades at a time? Do I scout and respond by catching up and getting double engineering bay? Perhaps I wanna play defensively until I reach 3/3 or maybe even atk before upgrades finish?
Is going 1/1 a good idea or would it cut too much into my production?
Does going 2 engineering bay mean I must stick to t1 and get my tech a lot later?(kind of like bomber style vs idra in last game)
I'm around 1300 masters if it maters.
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Simple question, simple answer.
TvZ, you always want to end up with 2 ebays when going bio because marines make up the core of your army, everything else is really just there to support the marines.
3/3 marines are one of the scariest units in the game and zerg has no consistent counter to well-upgraded marines.
Getting the 2nd ebay around the timing of the 3rd is fine, and it's ok to get behind in upgrades initially, so long as you catch up right after.
No need to rush for the 2nd ebay, but you do need it as you approach the mid-game.
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I believe it depends on the timing of the first engineering bay. If I make an ebay to defend against mutas, banshees or dts, then i will want to make the second when my 1/1 is finishing along with my armory. If I don´t see neither of those, I will plant double ebay a little later and start churning those upgrades as quickly as possible, starting the armory a litlle before 1/1 is finished, I will get 3/3 a little later I get 2/0 on my mech.
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On October 19 2011 21:36 VanillaSky wrote: Claiming it puts your infrastructure behind or cuts into units is equal to all races.
Not really; races work differently. That being said you can go double engi bay if you really want to, i.e. mkp did it against idra in the recent MLG. Against Protoss with a gasless FE I'm fairly certain that the way you described (only adding a 2nd after 1/1 finishes) is optimal, though.
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i think there are some builds with fast upgrades for terran as well.
At MLG PuMa did a 1rax fe into 3 rax+double ebay and started the upgrades immediately when the ebays finished... and Marineking raped Idra on Shakuras with really fast double upgrade and MediVac... in fact terran also use this style with fast upgrades not only P and Z.
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Just my two cents.
Two engineering bays only if you're opening with a build that can safely support two early on, which requires turtling and giving up map control. I personally like one engineering bay because in the earlier stages of the game, it may be more favorable that the Terran opt for faster tech with the extra 100 gas instead of getting a simultaneous +1 upgrade. Going for 1/1 so fast either delays pushes or cuts into numbers of critical units such as an additional siege tank or medivac, if the Terran wants to apply pressure early or at a timing when the opponent does something that can be exploited. Upgrades and upgrading facilities don't pay off until the upgrade is actually finished, which is a big timing window and a big initial investment, meaning that your army can be much better than the opponent's before the upgrades finish. Of course, you expect this aggression to put the opponent somewhat behind--at least to make up for the fact that you may be behind on upgrades. If they're being too greedy with super-fast upgrades, you can outright end the game right there.
Edit: Another incentive of going fast 1/1 is that you can get faster 2/2 then a faster 3/3. This was mentioned in one of Day9's dailies, if I remember correctly. If we were to count this restriction in, you would have to sacrifice even more tech (see: MKP vs Idra in MLG [I think] where MKP went 3/3 marines 17 minutes into the game, and mainly relied on them) in order to make your 1/1 pay off in the long run. This could be another reason as to why people don't want to commit to 2 ebays too quickly. "Why get two if your build does not allow for 2/2 right after 1/1 finishes? The longer you delay that 2/2, the more likely that your opponent will close in on the upgrade gap" is more or less my thought process here.
Arguable that you can make up for this (choosing between faster tech vs. upgrades) by securing the natural faster, but that's only so viable on certain maps, and never guaranteed (also bound to make the Terran starved for minerals, assuming that you drop a scan on their base instead of using a mule at typical scout timings).
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I have been trying this out too and a problem I have run in to is the fact that you need an armory to begin the +2 upgrades. So even after you spend all that gas on the armory you are still going to spend another 175 each for the two additional upgrades. It definately slows down your tech a lot. But like other people said, 3-3 marines are godly against Zerg as long as you don't get fungaled or killed by banelings but even then your production capabilities are very high. Once you start throwing in medivacs it makes the marines that much better. If you are going to do it you have to really commit to it in my opinion.
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From what I see in terms of timing, getting 1/1 from a single engineering bay is pretty easy. Often times I will see pros do two things:
1. Get +1 weapons. Before +1 is done add armory and second ebay to start 2/1.
2. Get 1/1 from 1 ebay, then add armory and 2nd ebay to start 2/2.
I do not really see just straight up double ebay for 1/1 very often at higher levels, unless they are going for some kind of upgraded bio timing.
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On October 19 2011 23:21 CryMore wrote:
From what I see in terms of timing, getting 1/1 from a single engineering bay is pretty easy. Often times I will see pros do two things:
1. Get +1 weapons. Before +1 is done add armory and second ebay to start 2/1.
2. Get 1/1 from 1 ebay, then add armory and 2nd ebay to start 2/2.
I do not really see just straight up double ebay for 1/1 very often at higher levels, unless they are going for some kind of upgraded bio timing.
That's what I noticed as well and is more or less what I try to do (not because I can back this up, but because that's what they do and it seems to make enough sense for me to not try to find why it's wrong).
In any way I don't really like how people compare their upgrades to the enemy. I mean it sure is something you may want to know, but it's not necessarily something that should affect how you go on with your own upgrades. After all you get upgrades because you think those will give you the most power when you will actually need it, not to counter the enemy's upgrades. For example, just because a protoss went for fast +1 armor doesn't mean you need to delay your stim/shields to get +1 attack faster.
Armor upgrades actually become less powerful (in terms of % survival increase per upgrade) as the enemy has more attack upgrades, and attack upgrades become more powerful as the enemy gets more armor upgrades. Though most of the time you would be better off with attack upgrades, and the effect enemy upgrades has on your own upgrades' effectiveness is not very big, so this doesn't really matter and you should probably just get upgrades based on how good they are in the matchup and based on when you can get them without sacrificing too much...
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for what i do:
get +1 weps,then +1 armor. before the latter is finished, i start my armory and 2nd engi bay, and do the dbl upgrades from there. No, your tech wont be delayed that much if u followed this way.
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There is no best way to do it, or else this game would be lame. But whatever you choose to do, your play should reflect that. If you go for a fast double engineering bay against zerg on 2 base, any marine tank push you choose to do early will be weaker. Because 200 gas is a lot, thats almost two siege tanks, and your stim/combat shields will be delayed. In this circumstance it would be better to push with 2/2 once you have your third up. As if you go for something really fast, its a waste if you don't opt to use it right as it finished.
Hope I made sense.
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Unlike with Zerg or Protoss, Terran easily gets stopped at 1/1 if they don't have their armory. Zerg simply needs lair, which they should have when 1/1 finishes, while Protoss often techs to Twilight. Terran has to go out of its way to get the armory, which is a decent cost, requires a factory prerequisite.
Thus, if you're going for early 1/1 ups as Terran, you can be limited simply because before the upgrades are even 50% done you'll need to have started your factory so your armory can finish in time. If you're going for a bio centric force, sometimes you just won't get any benefits. Thus you get one ebay, get 1/0 then 1/1, in which your armory should be done by the time 1/1 finishes. Also, the quick 1/0 is usually against Protoss timing attacks that utilize Zealots and guardian shield to tank loads of damage, such as 6gate.
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There is no one best way to do it, otherwise this would be common knowledge.
My personal favourite is getting first 1 Ebay and get +1 weps, then +1 armor. Then start an Armory as well as a second Ebay so that they both finish at the same time as your +1 armor is done. You then get +2/+2 followed by +3/+3 from both Ebays after one another. Would also recommend getting +1 vehicle weapons for siege tanks in TvZ and TvT, and +1 air weapons in TvP if he's going colossi.
I'm not a terran as main, but I reckon that is a good way to do it.
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Yeah there is no "the way to go". Different builds different timings. But I usually goes for the +1 and adds armory and the second ebay so they are done with +1 and then I goes for +2 weapon and +1 armor.
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its important not just to focus on e-bay upgrades only (especially in tvt and tvz) since mech upgrades are (tanks) are soo good
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i always make 1 bay make 1 atack then 1 defense and while making 1 defense i add 2nd bay and armory so after u end 1-1 u can start 2-2 on both
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i think that going 1/1 and timing the 2nd engi bay (and armory if you dont have it yet) to finish at the same time that your second upgrade finishes so you cna start 2/2 asap is a strong strat. thorzain uses that a lot from what I've seen and it seemingly serves him well, especially against protoss
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In TvZ you should pretty well always have a 2nd engy and armory by the time +1 attack is done, in TvP I only do it if you're going for 1 t2 tech path. So if I'm opening 3rax into 5rax+ghost OR starport tech then yes, but if you throw down a factory and academy decently quick hold off until the 3rd.
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From almost all of the SlayerS terran players I've watched, they'll get their first ebay, train +1 attack, and then time their second ebay to finish right as +1 finishes, then they'll start +2 atk/ +1 armor at around the same time and keep scaling from there. Seems like an efficient way of doing things - It's something that I'm going to look into a little bit more carefully once the IPL3 and MLG Orlando replays are released.
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On October 20 2011 04:50 ShamTao wrote:
From almost all of the SlayerS terran players I've watched, they'll get their first ebay, train +1 attack, and then time their second ebay to finish right as +1 finishes, then they'll start +2 atk/ +1 armor at around the same time and keep scaling from there. Seems like an efficient way of doing things - It's something that I'm going to look into a little bit more carefully once the IPL3 and MLG Orlando replays are released.
This is a great method imo. Attack is MUCH better then armor for marines so always prioritize that and I suggest to start it early in general. Getting ahead in attack upgrades helps tremendously. Adding a 2nd ebay later for armor is a good move but depends on the type of game you're in really, if they are very aggresive or you plan to be yourself you're better off sticking to that 1 ebay but otherwise going double ebay is quite good.
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Go watch MKP vs Idra (mlg orlando and its the awesome build that works against P and Z IMO. MKP goes for the gasless fe and lots of rax and marines in the beginning. I won't go any further but that's the build that gives you fast ups.
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Recently MKP did a fast +1/+1 build. In order to do that, you either have to cut tanks or you will have a very low marine count if you are trying to produce lots of tanks at the same time.
Zerg players typically go mass ling or mass roach when getting double upgrades, which delays or cuts into the muta count or infestor count depending on what they're doing.
Protoss players often go zealot heavy when getting double upgrades and either delay twilight upgrades or have to skimp slightly on colossus/templar.
It's often too hard to get double upgrades in TvP, but you really only need attack upgrades anyway as they are the most effective.
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Coming from the Protoss perspective, the scariest thing in the game is when the Terran is ahead on upgrades. So I would always go for double E bays.
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If you go double E-Bay, you just don't have money to continually pump SCVs, Rax units, get factory, armory, starport, etc. It just doesn't work out practically.
Yet on the other hand Terran simply cannot go long without an E-Bay, as turrets are a necessity early on in every matchup. Unlike say Protoss in PvT, who can make 2 forges and chrono out upgrades anytime he wants before the 15 minute mark and feel good about it. In PvZ Protoss usually gets forge out super fast and stays on one, and as for Zerg, they have nothing to spend their money on besides drones so they might as well rush upgrades 
That is why most Terrans get their 2nd ebay after 1/0 or 1/1. As long as you are on top of your ebays you upgrades still pretty fast even if you wait for 1/1 IMO, so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
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Getting 2 engi bays factory armory and the 275/275 for the upgrades is a huge investment early. Its a risky thing to do for that reason and unless you go for a 1/1 timing with lots of bio against Zerg its not worth it imo. The way to do it is start +1 attack early and then get factory armory and second ebay when its about half done or get even later upgrades if your strategy isnt an upgrade timing push or bio heavy to begin with. At least thats what I do.
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EPT
