|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
In light of recent threads, the secret that Motherships are good PvZ is quickly being realised by people. Not only is it good, but it is versatile offensively and defensively. In many ways, what I've worked out here is similar to the realisations that have been made over in HUARGH's build. Both appreciate that Motherships are incredibly powerful, and it is safe to tech to Mothership after having a Stargate scout the Zerg. These realisations have led us toward different conclusions - for him it allows him to take a very easy third base. For me, it allows me to crush the third base of Zerg while expanding myself.
The Backstory
Fast expand and its variants have started to come under some scrutiny with the success of stargate play twindling. Zergs have learned how to fend off the 6gate blink stalker timing as well as the VR-Stargate units type builds while powering economy and ending up way ahead. I personally preferred the 6gate after expanding, but ling heavy play started to dominate me.
My PvZ knowledge from way back told me that either I needed to kill that third base/kill a lot of drones or I needed to expand very quickly so that I wouldn't fall behind in economy. However taking a very fast third isn't always an option and in my opinion leaves the protoss very vulnerable as adding an expansion after scouting with VR/Phoenix, I believe it is too late. My prior knowledge also taught me that adding a Mothership to your army instantly bulks it up.
So hence the Mothership/6gate came into existence.
The Plan
The plan is simple. Try to get away with building the least defence possible while teching to mothership (with blink as the beacon is building). We do this by using zealots to scout pre-stargate, then using a VR to scout once the stargate is done. Once the Mothership is in construction we build nothing but stalkers. Then we hit the Zerg third with Stalker/Mothership (and sentries, if you can manage  ) and aim to kill it or severely damage the Zerg. At the same time we expand ourselves giving us a economic edge.
The Build (a skeleton)
- Open with your favourite FE build.
- Once your first gateway is done build a zealot and use it to scout the Zerg (important so you don't die to dumb all ins)
- Otherwise, continue as normal until you add a Stargate (you'll probably end up making 3-4 sentries, thats not a problem.)
- After Stargate add 3 gates (total=4) and take all 4 gases if you haven't already
- Next up you want a VR and a Twilight Council.
- Scout with the VR (kill overlords near base!) and begin Fleet Beacon in a hidden place
- Add 2 more gates and start blink (if you want to chrono it make sure you have enough chrono left for Mothership)
- Once Beacon is done, begin Mothership and Chrono her out asap
- Build nonstop Stalkers from now on, if you can get a proxy pylon near the third this will help the attack
- Once Mothership is done, send her + Stalkers + Sentries + VR (it shouldn't die!) to attack the third (tip: hotkey mothership outside the rest of the units)
- At the same time expand to your third
A more refined build than this isn't possible at this stage. This is because I haven't had time to refine it properly and Zergs keep doing different things on the ladder However, with no pressure I have been able to be attacking the Zerg third at 12:30. This does mean that the attack needs to do damage if you want to even things up again. However, you should be able to do that damage 9 times out of 10.
Why this works
First of all, this should look like a normal FFE-Stargate build and ideally you will be able to deny scouting and keep the beacon hidden for long enough to make this so. This means the Zerg should go into anti-FFE-Stargate mode straight away. This is fast third, spores, and lots of drones. The extra power added to the push by the Mothership means if he drones to hard, he dies instantly. The Vortex that you should accumulate by the time the Mothership reaches the third of the Zerg is insanely good at splitting whatever force the zerg has into two bits - think of it like a mega-forcefield - which means that your stalkers can actually kill things.
When you scout things like no third and whatnot, you can still get a Mothership (there isn't anything wrong with it) but you should be aware that he is going to cheese you some how (or is playing 2base infestor). My solution is cannons in lieu of stalkers to bulk up your front - and any appropriate unit to deal with the situation from the 4gates you should have (minimum). e.g. zealots vs 2 base infestor, VR vs roach all in, sentry vs baneling bust etc. You can even do what HUARGH does instead of this timing attack.
Once the attack is over, the Mothership can defend superbly (particularly on Antiga as exhibited vs Urbanizer - see reps at end). This means your 3rd base should 100% go up and any pressure the Zerg tries to put back on you should be easily neutralised.
What beats this
Two things
- Scouting it and preparing accordingly (see rep vs Baxter)
- Blind hydra/corruptor (see rep vs comogury)
I would classify the former as a soft counter, and the latter as a hard counter.
Replays!!!!
Here is a pack of 8 games using this build on the ladder. It features this build against a vairety of builds including
- a 6 pool
- mutaling
- roach play
- some infestor builds
If you want to complain about the quality of opponent, okay, but I suggest you try the build before you bash
Rep pack
|
awesome dude, I'm loving this Mothership play thats becoming popular all of a sudden.
|
|
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 02:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
awesome dude, I'm loving this Mothership play thats becoming popular all of a sudden.
Most of this was done pre-patch. There was a simple trick to making motherships less bad when they had poor acceleration. That was to keep motherships hotkeyed separately, and after moving everything to a location you make the mothership patrol so it never decelerates. Not so useful post-patch though 
|
The third timing seems a little late for my taste, but that's more and more just PvZ nowadays. Checking reps now, thanks Plexa.
|
Omg another mothership build thread!!! thank you Plexa <3
About the patrolling, lol didn't think of that.
This will be real cool if GSL players start doing it, because then all three protoss tech trees will be "viable" (instead of having to get HT or Colossi you could get Mother)
Nice picture, makes the thread look attractive :D
Then again, if you could keep patrolling it before patch to keep it fast, then I wonder why we haven't seen this in top level tournaments beforehand.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 02:44 CaptainHaz wrote:
The third timing seems a little late for my taste, but that's more and more just PvZ nowadays. Checking reps now, thanks Plexa.
I agree. By doing this you are banking on hurting his economy to make up for the late third. It's no different than a blink stalker timing... except a few minutes later
On October 03 2011 02:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This will be real cool if GSL players start doing it, because then all three protoss tech trees will be "viable" (instead of having to get HT or Colossi you could get Mother) Motherships have always been good PvZ. I mentioned this when describing the optimal lategame scenario for protoss (I think that was pre-deathball craze too). Kiwikaki has demonstrated time and time again that Motherships are effective units as well. With that said, Motherships make Protoss armies anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times stronger than they would otherwise be - colossus + mship // ht + mship is way better than gateway units + mship
|
i love you plexa
i will be using this
<3
|
This seems just straight up beastly while not being overly complex or difficult to execute. Cant wait to check out the reps!
|
Linked this topic in my topic <3
|
This is pretty cool, it reminds me of Kiwi vs Machine(?) where he expanded to a 3rd and kill every single hatchery with blink stalkers before doing a sweet recall.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 03:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:35 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 02:32 TheAntZ wrote:On October 03 2011 02:18 Plexa wrote:Heh I realised the same things you have about motherships but I came to very different conclusions. Could you elaborate a bit please? What conclusions did you draw? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271279tldr; we both had playstyles we wanted to use but the current metagame didn't allow for. Solution? Mothership! But will it blend be ever viable against Terran? Mothership, outside of Mothership/4gate, won't be viable against Terran. The mobility of Terran and the strength of their units makes using it impossible.. plus vikings and ghosts. Yuk. This build (vs zerg) is heavily metagame dependent as random all ins at dumb timings can crush this if you miss it.
|
Instead of sending your whole army together in one giant allin-ish attack, why not try a style where you sneak some stalkers (control towers and path with void) blink in and snipe third, then recall out a-la Kiwikaki style?
Seems much more fun and safer imo
you can even bring the void with you for added dps, then you can leave the MS over your third to prepare for the inevitable counter attack where you should have cannon defense up and ready with your blink/sentry/MS combo
|
I see it as more of a proof of concept that Mothership supported 3rd bases like this and HUARGH's strategy is quite viable though it may not be 100% stable yet. It definitely makes you wonder how far you can take fast motherships.
|
I haven't had the chance to look over any of the replays yet, but I assume this is inteded to hit with at least +1 weapons?
|
Ahh, the irony of the game vs. Odal xD
|
On October 03 2011 03:43 Shintuku wrote:
Ahh, the irony of the game vs. Odal xD
i nearly choked laughing at that one
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 03:25 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Instead of sending your whole army together in one giant allin-ish attack, why not try a style where you sneak some stalkers (control towers and path with void) blink in and snipe third, then recall out a-la Kiwikaki style?
Seems much more fun and safer imo
you can even bring the void with you for added dps, then you can leave the MS over your third to prepare for the inevitable counter attack where you should have cannon defense up and ready with your blink/sentry/MS combo I tried that a long time ago vs energizer. Basically, you don't get any net advantage by doing that. Yeah, you save a few units - but its really just a really late blink stalker push with a gimmick.
On October 03 2011 03:35 feebas wrote:
I haven't had the chance to look over any of the replays yet, but I assume this is inteded to hit with at least +1 weapons? Generally, although I forget the timing.
|
Wow this is just crazy. Mind = blown....
Gonna go try it out myself :D
|
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd?
|
You use vortex in a different way, kind of like a way to neutralize their army for 20 seconds while all your units have a field day, to kill the 3rd and then back off. You can't really throw your stalkers inside (which is your unit of choice) because vortex does not really benefit them.
What are your thoughts on switching to zealot/archon lategame, as I don't see you do this in your games? I think it would make vortex much more effective.
|
On October 03 2011 02:38 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
awesome dude, I'm loving this Mothership play thats becoming popular all of a sudden. Most of this was done pre-patch. There was a simple trick to making motherships less bad when they had poor acceleration. That was to keep motherships hotkeyed separately, and after moving everything to a location you make the mothership patrol so it never decelerates. Not so useful post-patch though
shuttle flashbacks
<3
Looks like a really fun build, going to try it out once I finish this homework!
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form
On October 03 2011 04:19 the p00n wrote:
You use vortex in a different way, kind of like a way to neutralize their army for 20 seconds while all your units have a field day, to kill the 3rd and then back off. You can't really throw your stalkers inside (which is your unit of choice) because vortex does not really benefit them.
What are your thoughts on switching to zealot/archon lategame, as I don't see you do this in your games? I think it would make vortex much more effective. I'm not a fan of Zealots vs Zerg. Mostly because Brood Lords scare the shit out of me - I'd rather have stalkers to deal with them and if they switch to ultras then I'll make Zealots. Zealots are good for sniping buildings via prisms too. Archons are excellent units though I like adding them into any mix.
|
your Country52797 Posts
On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd?
It's not going to happen.
And by the time you take your third, most zergs will have a spire and 3-4 bases, and be very easily be able to pump out corrupters.
|
On October 03 2011 04:28 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:19 the p00n wrote:
You use vortex in a different way, kind of like a way to neutralize their army for 20 seconds while all your units have a field day, to kill the 3rd and then back off. You can't really throw your stalkers inside (which is your unit of choice) because vortex does not really benefit them.
What are your thoughts on switching to zealot/archon lategame, as I don't see you do this in your games? I think it would make vortex much more effective. I'm not a fan of Zealots vs Zerg. Mostly because Brood Lords scare the shit out of me - I'd rather have stalkers to deal with them and if they switch to ultras then I'll make Zealots. Zealots are good for sniping buildings via prisms too. Archons are excellent units though I like adding them into any mix.
A good protoss would be able to use hallucinations to exactly know when the greater spire is up so I don't think that should be a thing to worry about. Stalkers are so gas intensive and zealots are just as strong as stalkers in most battles. Especially as with +1 attack they 2hit lings.
|
Your threads are always brilliant ♥
|
On October 03 2011 04:53 HoMM wrote:
A good protoss would be able to use hallucinations to exactly know when the greater spire is up so I don't think that should be a thing to worry about. Stalkers are so gas intensive and zealots are just as strong as stalkers in most battles. Especially as with +1 attack they 2hit lings.
I have to disagree here. Zealots in PvZ can be very good in certain situations and vs certain unit compositions (ling heavy etc), especially since you are always gas starved anyways. However, if the zerg goes for a roach-hydra ball or roach-infestor-broodlord etc zealots just don't do anything useful for you. Basically Protoss doesn't have the perfect cost efficient meatshield like zergs have with roaches (who do about the same dps/hp with max ups but are ranged, faster and have burrow) but protoss have something called sentries with ff, preventing units from closing the gap to the higher ranged protoss units. It's much better to just use ff and blink back hurt stalkers than having zealots who get in range of his units that otherwise wouldn't even be able to shoot at them. The exception to that is if you just have only minerals left and need to make some units or like mentioned above the zerg is running a unit comp where adding zealots is really beneficial. The closer you are approaching the 200/200 mark, the less (best case no zealots at all) you want to have. The same thing goes on with stalkers, you want to have less stalkers and more voids/archons/hts etc etc.
As long as the zerg is not spamming fg over your whole army preventing blinking or using tons of lings or even ultras where zealots are sufficient tanks, I think it's better to just add more gates/canons/nexi etc with the minerals or do prism-zealot-warpins to snipe hatcheries/tech. Stalkers are not always best, but are mostly useful in pvz if you are not sure what the opponent is up to, zealots are not. :-)
PS: I love zealots though, I try to employ them way more than other protoss I know into my army/gameplay.
|
I haven't watched the replays but just something quick that I didn't pick up on in your post: Is this attack designed to kill the third base of Zerg then head home and defend your third? Or just outright kill them similar to standard 6 gate?
Sorry if this was already answered
|
Very nice guide Plexa, It would be so cool if mothership would be available against Terran also. 
Nontheless will check out the replays ^^
|
On October 03 2011 04:28 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form
I disagree :p carriers are really good late game PvZ. You'll probably want even more than 3 bases and at least a fairly strong army (i.e. not gateway only) before transitioning to them though.
|
love this
I've also been trying mothership play against zerg.
I've found mass recalling your army along with 1 or 2 probes to make pylons and then vortexing/force fielding the ramp while you kill all the tech structures is better than engaging straight up.
Killing the spawning pool/roach warren before they reenforce enough while you use pylons to reenforce your army is devastating.
Or as soon as your mothership mass recalls have it run back to your main (mainly on close air maps) to mass recall you army back (after killing zerg tech).
|
Thank you Plexa, your threads always help me when I'm hitting ladder woes! I do have a question, have you tried to incorporate upgrades into the build? As in make, getting plus 1 a standard part of the build and not something you could do sporadically?
|
On October 03 2011 05:40 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:28 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form I disagree :p carriers are really good late game PvZ. You'll probably want even more than 3 bases and at least a fairly strong army (i.e. not gateway only) before transitioning to them though.
i agree. I havent found a composition from zerg that can beat colo archon carrier (if the armies have the same supply/upgrades). But this comp is really difficult to get to.
|
On October 03 2011 05:40 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:28 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form I disagree :p carriers are really good late game PvZ. You'll probably want even more than 3 bases and at least a fairly strong army (i.e. not gateway only) before transitioning to them though.
Carriers take a while to get up though (isn't it like 120 seconds? I actually don't even know, I know BCs are 90s and that carriers were longer). When you can instantly sink 2000 gas into mass archons or invest it in something you're not gonna get anytime soon... well... the choice is usually made pretty quickly.
|
Italy12246 Posts
Damn, and i thought nothing would be more awesome than the pvp motherships thread.
|
Plexa, would you consider Mothership being "borderline" OP or just extremely good? Because i just got my ass handed to me due to this
|
|
|
On October 03 2011 05:58 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 05:40 Anihc wrote:On October 03 2011 04:28 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form I disagree :p carriers are really good late game PvZ. You'll probably want even more than 3 bases and at least a fairly strong army (i.e. not gateway only) before transitioning to them though. Carriers take a while to get up though (isn't it like 120 seconds? I actually don't even know, I know BCs are 90s and that carriers were longer). When you can instantly sink 2000 gas into mass archons or invest it in something you're not gonna get anytime soon... well... the choice is usually made pretty quickly.
You can instantly sink 200 gas into mass archons which die to infestor/bl.
There's no versatile and effective way to deal with infestor/corruptor/bl with only protoss ground. I used to think mothership+archon was enough, until I met zergs who weren't dumb and actually micro/position their deathball. Void rays are nice but get countered too hard by infestors. That leaves carriers... which actually work amazingly well.
|
|
|
ive been seeing a lot of protosses on streams use this instead to recall into the zergs main instead of attacking the third and pretty much winning the game outright 95%+ of the time
still as a zerg this is scary for sure
|
This guide is much better than the other one, I'll enjoy watching these replays. Thanks, good work!
|
Infester's can't do much to carriers, NP dose not last long enough for one carrier to dps through the shields of a another and with NP at range 7 (lol) carriers will auto snip the casting infester.
Zergs T3 can't attack them.
Carriers + stalker + HT/storm can engage a Zerg infester/BL/ultra army every easily.
It forces Zerg to down tech to Corrupter/hydra, and Strom Stalker deals well with that.
Now The issue is that, Before you have time to get Carriers you must be able to Defend the zerg Death ball for the time it takes to tech to and build the Carriers, And if you can do that then you can most likely kill the zerg with out needing to tech to carriers in the first place.
|
On October 03 2011 07:01 Infleto wrote:
Infester's can't do much to carriers, NP dose not last long enough for one carrier to dps through the shields of a another and with NP at range 7 (lol) carriers will auto snip the casting infester.
Zergs T3 can't attack them.
Carriers + stalker + HT/storm can engage a Zerg infester/BL/ultra army every easily.
It forces Zerg to down tech to Corrupter/hydra, and Strom Stalker deals well with that.
Now The issue is that, Before you have time to get Carriers you must be able to Defend the zerg Death ball for the time it takes to tech to and build the Carriers, And if you can do that then you can most likely kill the zerg with out needing to tech to carriers in the first place.
Or you can buy time by harassing with double/triple prism action.. Jesus man, seriously i hate this anti-carrier attitude "JUST" because of the fricking build time.. I'm sure its one of those things we will laugh at as the time goes by and saying "oh Jesus how could we be so blind and dumb not to see how this is supposed to work" you know that kind of thing.. Momma ship didn't even need the buff its just people that are rather complaining to blizzard than using skill like brood war shuttle control was.. But whatever, hate Carriers and then scratch on your head when someone pulled it off - it is slow and painful route of improving when you're close-minded. I'm speaking in general now so no offense to you bro
|
On October 03 2011 02:45 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:44 CaptainHaz wrote:
The third timing seems a little late for my taste, but that's more and more just PvZ nowadays. Checking reps now, thanks Plexa.
I agree. By doing this you are banking on hurting his economy to make up for the late third. It's no different than a blink stalker timing... except a few minutes later Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This will be real cool if GSL players start doing it, because then all three protoss tech trees will be "viable" (instead of having to get HT or Colossi you could get Mother) Motherships have always been good PvZ. I mentioned this when describing the optimal lategame scenario for protoss (I think that was pre-deathball craze too). Kiwikaki has demonstrated time and time again that Motherships are effective units as well. With that said, Motherships make Protoss armies anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times stronger than they would otherwise be - colossus + mship // ht + mship is way better than gateway units + mship
I do remember kiwikaki and huk using the mothership quite a lot to great effect, but i haven't seen much of it lately Maybe I just need to watch more. I hope they will pick it back up after this buff :D
|
infestor beats this too? Mothership makes you clump your units to stay cloaked and fungal reveals
|
Could you comment what you do with the mother ship in a battle? other then clock positional business while blinking with the stalkers? I've loved the idea of this attack but I don't know what to do with the big thing.
|
you know this is actually a pretty fun strat to use. motherships are just such a fun unit whether i win or lose. thankfully, this seems to be pretty effective as well .
thanks!
|
On October 03 2011 07:31 YosHGo wrote:Or you can buy time by harassing with double/triple prism action.. Jesus man, seriously i hate this anti-carrier attitude "JUST" because of the fricking build time.. I'm sure its one of those things we will laugh at as the time goes by and saying "oh Jesus how could we be so blind and dumb not to see how this is supposed to work" you know that kind of thing.. Momma ship didn't even need the buff its just people that are rather complaining to blizzard than using skill like brood war shuttle control was.. But whatever, hate Carriers and then scratch on your head when someone pulled it off - it is slow and painful route of improving when you're close-minded. I'm speaking in general now so no offense to you bro
I am not saying you're wrong. What I will say is that carriers don't pass the smell test. It is conventional wisdom that poo-poos carriers, for a reason. We have, and I do mean ALL of us have, tried to make carriers work - and failed. Clearly nobody has made any breakthroughs. It doesn't require multiple GSL tosses to demonstrate that they can be an answer to something - but one would be 'nice'. Putting one out that an opponent can anticipate and yet still get good mileage out of it is probably going to require a buff in SC2.
|
After reviewing your replays and some theory crafting I have decided that this build should not be that effective even with only minimal scouting, once I as a Zerg see a mothership the obvious response is to go hydraling with several overseers and try to win the game while taking a third and denying yours using overlord poops.
|
On October 03 2011 07:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:45 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 02:44 CaptainHaz wrote:
The third timing seems a little late for my taste, but that's more and more just PvZ nowadays. Checking reps now, thanks Plexa.
I agree. By doing this you are banking on hurting his economy to make up for the late third. It's no different than a blink stalker timing... except a few minutes later On October 03 2011 02:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This will be real cool if GSL players start doing it, because then all three protoss tech trees will be "viable" (instead of having to get HT or Colossi you could get Mother) Motherships have always been good PvZ. I mentioned this when describing the optimal lategame scenario for protoss (I think that was pre-deathball craze too). Kiwikaki has demonstrated time and time again that Motherships are effective units as well. With that said, Motherships make Protoss armies anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times stronger than they would otherwise be - colossus + mship // ht + mship is way better than gateway units + mship I do remember kiwikaki and huk using the mothership quite a lot to great effect, but i haven't seen much of it lately Maybe I just need to watch more. I hope they will pick it back up after this buff :D
It was kinda a fad. I suspect you'll see it come and go every time Protosses runs out of ideas until someone figures out the situation where the mothership is useful and there becomes a canonical usage for it like Queens in BW TvZ. And then I'm sure it'll get nerfed to oblivion...
|
On October 03 2011 06:40 darkscream wrote:
This guide is much better than the other one,
Yep, but I have updated my guide to make it more structured and readable (drunk + tired + typing in foreign language doesn't mix well). Also, our builds are very different, they just use the same unit.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 05:17 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I haven't watched the replays but just something quick that I didn't pick up on in your post: Is this attack designed to kill the third base of Zerg then head home and defend your third? Or just outright kill them similar to standard 6 gate?
Sorry if this was already answered I think I work in +1 and sometimes +2, its mostly up to you as what I've written is just a skeleton. It all depends on the gas!
On October 03 2011 06:22 TolEranceNA wrote:Plexa, would you consider Mothership being "borderline" OP or just extremely good? Because i just got my ass handed to me due to this Nope. This strategy is hard countered by anything hydralisk heavy. Plus they are super expensive T_T. Essentially, for 400/400 you get to make your army nearly twice as good.
On October 03 2011 06:25 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 05:58 the p00n wrote:On October 03 2011 05:40 Anihc wrote:On October 03 2011 04:28 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 04:17 FortyOzs wrote:
PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd? Nope. Carriers are bad in every way in their current form I disagree :p carriers are really good late game PvZ. You'll probably want even more than 3 bases and at least a fairly strong army (i.e. not gateway only) before transitioning to them though. Carriers take a while to get up though (isn't it like 120 seconds? I actually don't even know, I know BCs are 90s and that carriers were longer). When you can instantly sink 2000 gas into mass archons or invest it in something you're not gonna get anytime soon... well... the choice is usually made pretty quickly. You can instantly sink 200 gas into mass archons which die to infestor/bl. There's no versatile and effective way to deal with infestor/corruptor/bl with only protoss ground. I used to think mothership+archon was enough, until I met zergs who weren't dumb and actually micro/position their deathball. Void rays are nice but get countered too hard by infestors. That leaves carriers... which actually work amazingly well. Interesting. I'm not completely convinced so you'll have to send me a rep or two some time My reservations are that they take forever to build and corruptors (with upgrades) should tear them to shreds.
On October 03 2011 06:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:
ive been seeing a lot of protosses on streams use this instead to recall into the zergs main instead of attacking the third and pretty much winning the game outright 95%+ of the time
still as a zerg this is scary for sure
Don't know why you would do that if you get blink because you can just blink into their main. Although I did use recall against a 2 base hydra/roach drop all in haha.
On October 03 2011 06:40 darkscream wrote:
This guide is much better than the other one, I'll enjoy watching these replays. Thanks, good work! Both guides hit on the same points. I don't know whether either will become standard but the point is that motherships can be useful early midgame PvZ. Working out how to incorporate motherships properly will become apparent over time.
On October 03 2011 09:05 sermokala wrote:
Could you comment what you do with the mother ship in a battle? other then clock positional business while blinking with the stalkers? I've loved the idea of this attack but I don't know what to do with the big thing. Vortex if you can. Otherwise keep it positioned so that most of your units are covered. Other than that, you try to keep it alive. It's not a great attacking unit - it's just there for support.
On October 03 2011 10:19 BinxyBrown wrote:
After reviewing your replays and some theory crafting I have decided that this build should not be that effective even with only minimal scouting, once I as a Zerg see a mothership the obvious response is to go hydraling with several overseers and try to win the game while taking a third and denying yours using overlord poops.
You are correct with your response, however if I see you teching hydras to defend I won't go through with the attack because I know I'll lose. Instead I would try to get my third up (assuming you have yours) and get colossus asap - and if you've made as many units as I think you should have, it should be even. I don't think its a won or lost game by either side.
|
|
|
Um... I like this, but to be fair your opponents were REALLY bad. There's literally a 2 minute window where you can just die to any all in.
I do think the mothership needs more use late game PvZ. Whenever I play a long macro game PvZ I always wonder why my opponent doesn't have a mothership.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 11:40 Flonomenalz wrote:
Um... I like this, but to be fair your opponents were REALLY bad. There's literally a 2 minute window where you can just die to any all in. I've already said that if the zerg does some weird all in I'm dead. The point of the build is to play the metagame and get the zerg into his standard anti-Stargate play, make a ton a drones, then realise he's got problems. Baxter is a good Zerg and he admitted that he only held it because he scouted the beacon.
|
This is exactly what we need. More innovation and new/creative use of existing game mechanics and units, and less crying about supposed race problems. Gonna try this out when I offrace.
|
motherships have become so interesting now that they can actually keep up with your army!!
|
tried it 3 times today on Ladder in PvZ (high Diamond EU), won 2 out of the 3 games, unfortunately it was the 2 games the Zerg wemt for Hydras cause of my voidray doing harrass. The game i lost the Zerg went almost roach only and simply crushed my whole ground army, ignoring my mothership and ran in my base.
but hands down, i gotta say this is really a nice tactic, gonna try to do it more often in PvZ... maybe it's a good way to get to carriers in the lategame!
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:10 Noorgrin wrote:
tried it 3 times today on Ladder in PvZ (high Diamond EU), won 2 out of the 3 games, unfortunately it was the 2 games the Zerg wemt for Hydras cause of my voidray doing harrass. The game i lost the Zerg went almost roach only and simply crushed my whole ground army, ignoring my mothership and ran in my base.
but hands down, i gotta say this is really a nice tactic, gonna try to do it more often in PvZ... maybe it's a good way to get to carriers in the lategame!
That's quite weird I would have expected the opposite - struggle vs hydras and win vs roach. I'd be interested in the replays if you want to share them.
|
Plexa, you are a boss. Not sure if I can execute it very well though
|
One potential I have seen for the Carrier is actually because of the build time. Due to its build time it is much less intensive in Min and Gas/sec as say a Collosus (Meaning keeping the stargate always producing carriers is < that of Robo always producing Collosus). Carrier = 2.9 Min/sec and 2.1 Gas/sec + 100 Minerals after creation for interceptors compaired to a Collosus which is 3.9 Min/sec and 2.6 Gas/sec. This to me is a way to to use your most likely dormant Stargate to produce a powerful, well rounded unit. (assuming you opened stargate -> Mothership like or just stargate and put down fleet beacon because of hydra transition) This gives extra resources to get other tech/more gateway army to support your carrier during its creation time.
This is following the same logic of keeping warpgates dormant while adding on more warpgates due to them being able to produce so quickly, yet in reverse. If there is a threat of an attack you can easily choose to cancel the current carrier in production and go into mass crono warpgate production to quickly re-enforce when it is needed.
The OP's build gives a very good way to get to that point. Would love to know if anyone sees a major flaw in this other than, they go corrupter. Which you could say about collosus as well. Which imo carriers are not countered as hard by corrupter's (More health/can attack air) Less Min/Gas intensive = more stalkers.
|
Canada13388 Posts
This is a cool build to mix in. Used it twice today lost once because I somehow cancelled the mothership at one point. Even then I did OK to take out a third base.
|
intense. i wanna see this go towards carriers in zvp. i really want to see them used so we can finally see protoss's full potential. and i wanna play against them because they're coold :D
|
Going to try it. I don't even care how viable it is, it's just too badass not to use.
|
A Mothership can be mind-controlled, and the zerg could use it to vortex the protoss army. Not sure I believe that the Mothership can be a viable build.
Now it also seems silly that Infestors can neural parasite a Mothership, but that's a different point for a different thread.
|
Finally protoss start experimenting with their air units, like warp prism.
|
Plexa I always love your Build Order threads. Just watched the first rep and yeah Hydras do break this pretty well... It does look like carriers could be viable though! Pretty excited to try this out myself, good stuff brotha!
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:41 NET wrote:
Plexa I always love your Build Order threads. Just watched the first rep and yeah Hydras do break this pretty well... It does look like carriers could be viable though! Pretty excited to try this out myself, good stuff brotha!
I think if you scout hydra transitioning into something akin to p00n's build would be your best bet.
|
another way for this build is to clear the way for the mothership to the zerg mainbase with overlordhunting and clear the zelnagas.fly the mothership to the zergbase and massrecall at this time you should have around 150 food with +2 , 2-3 carrier depending on how you spend your chronos and 8-10 warpgates and can build your 3 (12.30-14 min).most zerg will try to defend their mainbase and thats a straight loss if you can micro your mothership and snipe their overseer
|
wrong button pls delete this ^^
|
I saw that game versus Baxter on Antiga. Why no colossus? The HT centered compositions really make for more entertaining games (imo) but it just seems like colossus under a mothership is so rediculously strong in my experience (I see Kiwi do it a bit, actually)
|
On October 04 2011 02:26 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 02:10 Noorgrin wrote:
tried it 3 times today on Ladder in PvZ (high Diamond EU), won 2 out of the 3 games, unfortunately it was the 2 games the Zerg wemt for Hydras cause of my voidray doing harrass. The game i lost the Zerg went almost roach only and simply crushed my whole ground army, ignoring my mothership and ran in my base.
but hands down, i gotta say this is really a nice tactic, gonna try to do it more often in PvZ... maybe it's a good way to get to carriers in the lategame! That's quite weird I would have expected the opposite - struggle vs hydras and win vs roach. I'd be interested in the replays if you want to share them.
well, they are not really upload worthy, i just rewatched all 3 matches... i think i won because the Zerg players were just really bad (2k overmins), not for any tactical reason... might be the problem cause i am just diamond ^^
and the game i lost ... well that was my first game trying it, i missed to build the voidray, it was Xel'Naga so i did 3 gate expand and got my expo quite late... he simply out-macro'd me by the time i attacked...
2nd time i played on Xel'Naga i did a 1gate,stargate expand, which was ofc quite risky, but i was able to attack almost 2 minutes earlier + he did alot of spores and extra queen cause of the voidray
and well for the 3rd map, it was Antigua or something, were i was able to play a forge expand... everything else went like in match 2 basically
But both times i won, the opponents had pretty bad macro :/
but i will definitly continue playing it in PvZ, will keep you up-to-date about my advances :D
|
I saw that game versus Baxter on Antiga. Why no colossus? The HT centered compositions really make for more entertaining games (imo) but it just seems like colossus under a mothership is so rediculously strong in my experience (I see Kiwi do it a bit, actually)
one big advantage of HTs in this comp is that the protection of the Mothership means you can only reliably get storms off, morphing Archons afterwards is doable as well, and we all know how nasty Archon+Mothership is.
|
On October 04 2011 07:41 Demx wrote:
One potential I have seen for the Carrier is actually because of the build time. Due to its build time it is much less intensive in Min and Gas/sec as say a Collosus (Meaning keeping the stargate always producing carriers is < that of Robo always producing Collosus). Carrier = 2.9 Min/sec and 2.1 Gas/sec + 100 Minerals after creation for interceptors compaired to a Collosus which is 3.9 Min/sec and 2.6 Gas/sec. This to me is a way to to use your most likely dormant Stargate to produce a powerful, well rounded unit. (assuming you opened stargate -> Mothership like or just stargate and put down fleet beacon because of hydra transition) This gives extra resources to get other tech/more gateway army to support your carrier during its creation time.
This is following the same logic of keeping warpgates dormant while adding on more warpgates due to them being able to produce so quickly, yet in reverse. If there is a threat of an attack you can easily choose to cancel the current carrier in production and go into mass crono warpgate production to quickly re-enforce when it is needed.
The OP's build gives a very good way to get to that point. Would love to know if anyone sees a major flaw in this other than, they go corrupter. Which you could say about collosus as well. Which imo carriers are not countered as hard by corrupter's (More health/can attack air) Less Min/Gas intensive = more stalkers.
Q: What in PvZ is the carrier good against?
A: Broodlords. End of list.
Q: Will Z have broodlords at the time of your attack?
A: No.
Q: Why would you make carriers?
|
Hey! You posted our game lol. <3
|
Also: this build is great. Highly recommend to change up your play style. Plexa innovating as always.
|
On October 05 2011 01:39 kcdc wrote:
Q: Why would you make carriers?
Because someone has to. Someone has to make Idra rage at Carriers in SC2.
|
So uhh, just tried this out. Why are you revealing your starport tech? The zerg instantly pops down hydra den and spire then has a million corrupters waiting to shit on you :<
Replay. Platinum/Diamond players, I know, but I was hoping this would work for someone just coming back to the game after a looooong hiatus from actually playing. I mean if you look at the replay I was macroing so much better than him.
Avg unspent resources: me 815, him 2187
Resource Collection Rate: me 1547, him 2099
Look over the replay, I'm pretty sure I dropped gateways too early and the mothership came out slightly later as a result (not too much later but maybe you'll think that's my achilles heel in this replay)
The replay in question. I just feel like if I'm macroing that much better than my opponent with my regular FFE into collosi then I walk over him... so why use this strat?
http://www.mediafire.com/?7r35aee877gfj2v
|
How important to you think it is to open FE if you're going to transition into mothership? Could I, for example, do it on a 3 gate expand or a 2 gate stargate or would the moma come out too late?
|
On October 03 2011 10:46 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 06:40 darkscream wrote:
This guide is much better than the other one, Yep, but I have updated my guide to make it more structured and readable (drunk + tired + typing in foreign language doesn't mix well). Also, our builds are very different, they just use the same unit.
Both guides are great! Thanks to both of you for the threads... and that replay of Plexa vs the Opal(?) guy talking about motherships at the onset of the game was priceless.
I've been playing with motherships and carriers (on certain maps) PvZ, and it definitely seems there is potential somewhere in there. Fun stuff!
|
so here is a replay of a customgame i tried it vs a teammate (high diamond/low master EU)
http://www.solstice-gaming.eu/sc2_replays/850/
I tried to not show my tech in this case and did not build a voidray, which made him pump almost drones only in the beginning... and i think i only won the fight at his 3rd cause he was unable to flank/fiight with his whole army, otherwise i would have been doomed... this is prolly the reason you need that voidray -> to prevent Zerg from droneing like a mad man.
But in the end the game ended up in quite a funny match, i tried to go for carriers... this is the reason i uploaded it... but watch on your own :D
|
I couldn't get the replay pack to work also
+ Show Spoiler +PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd?
yeah i think it might, i've tried it and hydra shuts it down fast, but if you can get to about 5 base and have like 4 stargates, i can't see it failing.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:05 Rayzorblade wrote:
Hey! You posted our game lol. <3
Yeah because you beat me, feg.
On October 06 2011 05:49 gentix wrote:
How important to you think it is to open FE if you're going to transition into mothership? Could I, for example, do it on a 3 gate expand or a 2 gate stargate or would the moma come out too late?
Works off of 3gate expo/1 gate expo as well.
Here is an example:
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Backwater_Gulch_8.sc2replay
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/mothership6gate/mothership.jpg)
