EPT[D] Terran, TvP and game-design - Page 22
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Fushin
France193 Posts
I think that the MMM being so efficient from early to late game, makes it useless for the terran to switch into something else. I don't think the tanks are too weak (though arguably they are too hard countered by the immortals), but MMM is just so efficient, so easy to play, MMM drops are deadly, MMM ball is fast and deadly while always regenerating, and a terran has no difficulty countering the P's counter to MMM, Vikings are very good against colossus, and ghosts are just better on all levels that high templars. So right now, except if someone comes up with a brilliant idea, i don't see the match up changing anytime soon. And the only way to change it, is to nerf MMM in mid/late game while buffing slightly tank play. | ||
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Dezire
Netherlands640 Posts
On October 03 2011 18:21 PredY wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2011 07:26 Dezire wrote: Oke i disagree with this one so hard. First half of you're story is based on your poor opinion on marauders, and that youre facorite BW units cant be used (tank) which makes this 'complaining' about the matchup not based on facts but on your own opinion. about ur warpgates, you might have a point there, heck i'd like as a protoss myself if i could make units as 'easy' as a terran can so i can focus more on the battle instead of having to look awway to warp in and keep my macro up. but the micropart? you cannot be serious. first you are saying that its so awesome to micro against banes and fungles in tvz. but seriously you could do the same ammount of micro against storms as puma did amazingly here @ 26:05 or lifting up your units in ur medivacs to avoid FF's as select showcased in a match i cant remember on tal d'arim altar. or MKP in a match i can't remember either on crevasse where he one shotted units with marauders so they go slowed and couldnt get away. about the micro in a general battle, well just read what thorzain said, seems pretty intense to me tbh. and again the unitcomposition is biased by your opinion of not liking MM but using the argument "its basicly mmm viking ghost all the time" doesn't make much sens to me either as each matchup has a standard composition, that you dont like this one isnt the games fault. well there's micro and i acknowledged that later on in the thread. you know i like going bio early on because it's safe and it can do alot of damage, pin P back to his base because of fear of the drops. early bio battles are pretty cool. but give me an option to transition out of it. add variety to that matchup so that you can do both bio or biomech builds. oke i think that is a good point, would indeed be more interesting. | ||
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
Blizzard has balanced the game based around the idea that Terran should be unable to control space (without really understanding it), which has led to a relatively fair (by win percentages) TvP, but it hasn't led to an interesting match up. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: Yeah except the lore is flat-out retarded and doesn't follow from original Starcraft lore at all. Protoss just unlocking their ancient weapons is such a lame plot device. For one the theme for their weapons was that they were unweildy but powerful, cmon swords against guns, micro-manufacturing plants converted to create WMD's, resurrected units that ooze blue goo. This is because Protoss was never really a gung-ho galactic superpower like Terran, instead they united and highly valued peace. This is why the mothership and colossus sound so stupid, they were technologically advanced, but not in the same way as War of the Worlds. Terran reverts from jet hover-bikes with 3 mini-nukes to flaming go-karts, and at the same time up the cost. Although 2 scourge can do 220 flat damage combined for 75/25, for some reason a baneling for the same price can only do 20+15 damage? Huh? I followed the 10 years worth of books (their synopsis) and no, it's not retarded if you've been following the plot. Well... shooting flame probably destabilises the hovering, so it's back to wheels and wheels cost money. Because one is capable of sub-light speeds and the other... rolls really fast. Doing the math (velocity/impact/kinetic energy + acid splash etc), its not hard to figure out why they'd do so much damage. Although, if scourges did learn to target ground units that'll be cool. (bye bye Thor) | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:42 GinDo wrote: That Idea about having to crush zerg before the 10 min mark is total b.s. Its a fib told by qqers. Terran can hold their own against Zerg in a long macro game. That is until BL infestor comes out. Then its gg. But thats around the 25 min mark. Ghosts. The solution to TvZ endgame. On October 01 2011 08:20 Heavenly wrote: uh...hellions? The basic mech unit that you can pump out of a factory two at a time with a reactor? Hellions are surprisingly awful against chargelots. | ||
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wheelchairs
United States145 Posts
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jeffvip
211 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:09 Big J wrote: Wtf... In TvZ we see Koreans go for Full Mech styles for the first time now... TvZ has never been as Mech heavy as it is right now! In TvT we still see mostly mech (and a lot of airmech right now), but biomech and bio are at least available as openings right now. Also neither TvP nor TvZ are broken right now. Slightly Terranfavored, yes. But thats just a phase of the metagame. CreatorPrime's build is catching on, and if PvZ ever stabilzes, both P and Z will have more solid players in Code S. I really dont get those posts who want every Terran to play Mech-only in every MU. Also I would like to add, that Zerg doesn't feel zergish at all. In every novel and every mission, Zerg is controlling whole planets. Why doesn't every game start with creep all over the map? Completly unzergish... Simple, that's the reason why player choose Terran instead of Protoss or Zerg. If I want mobility I'll prefer playing as Zerg & to play as Protoss if I like high tech unit. Terran literary means dirty, slow, heavy metal, strong fire power and space control. | ||
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Anachromy
United States194 Posts
mixing 2 or 3 in with your first 10 min timing push can be brutal. I have seen demuslim do this on many occasions. | ||
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Darkwinja
8 Posts
I think this will eventually lead to a shift in the TvP metagame. I'd like to see a more air-mech oriented style w/ a heavy focus on ravens. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:49 jeffvip wrote: Simple, that's the reason why player choose Terran instead of Protoss or Zerg. If I want mobility I'll prefer playing as Zerg & to play as Protoss if I like high tech unit. Terran literary means dirty, slow, heavy metal, strong fire power and space control. no, I disagree. It never was that way. SK Terran, Tank/Marine/Medic combos... that's all part of broodwar. Lurkers, dark swarms controlled space for Zerg in broodwar. Shuttles, Science Vessels, Drops, Corsair, Vulture... you name the mobility of Terran and Protoss in broodwar. People choose Terran out of various reasons. One might be MechPlay. Another one might be MMM. Another one drop. Another one the general feeling of fighting for mankind. Another one because of all races it felt best for them to play Terran. | ||
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Fides
United States23 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On October 03 2011 23:12 Fides wrote: this shit makes me giggle @ the terran fanboys I know you've got 5 posts and all that, but you do realize this thread is by pro players saying that Terran bio is too strong and as a result has by design limited the match-up? | ||
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razy
Russian Federation899 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I followed the 10 years worth of books (their synopsis) and no, it's not retarded if you've been following the plot. Well... shooting flame probably destabilises the hovering, so it's back to wheels and wheels cost money. Because one is capable of sub-light speeds and the other... rolls. Do the math (velocity/impact etc) , its not hard to figure out. Although, if scourges did learn to target ground units that'll be cool. (bye bye Thor) egh, zergs should've better realised that tanks and vultures are OP rather than BCs lol aslo terran having problem with zealot is OMG :D i'd put carrier there instead for sure also i've never seen hellions consistently being used in TvP to deal with the zealots anyways, don't u think that it sounds a bit of a selfpwn? ^^ | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 04 2011 00:24 razy wrote: egh, zergs should've better realised that tanks and vultures are OP rather than BCs lol aslo terran having problem with zealot is OMG :D i'd put carrier there instead for sure also i've never seen hellions consistently being used in TvP to deal with the zealots anyways, don't u think that it sounds a bit of a selfpwn? ^^ Actually they did, hence they evolved wings to help run faster, theoretically overcoming the slow rate of fire (slow targeting) of the previous generation of siege tank and vulture. Well, I'm quoting from memory and zealots are treated like walking tanks lore wise. As for hellions not being used in TvP, 1) Thor/hellion was used very often in beta until their nerfs where they fell by the wayside compared to the bio heavy builds we see today. 2) as other posters have already mentioned, MMMG is much more efficient in despatching chargelots than hellions can past 3 on 3 base. 3) Hellion pretty much came out of nowhere lorewise. | ||
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Deadpoetic0077
United States63 Posts
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BADSMCGEE
United States94 Posts
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
On October 04 2011 00:55 Deadpoetic0077 wrote: I think a lot of you are missing the OP's point. Hes talking about how stale the MU has become and how P has a lot more options. Chargelot/archon timing, gateway colossi, gateway void ray timing, gateway immortal, gateway HT/DT>archon are all viable in some sense vs T. Terran HAS to go bio with ghosts or vikings. That's the way 95% of TvP's go. the other 5% is banshees sometimes, simply because theyre so good against stalkers/ and can do some good damage to colossi. but even if you get banshees, one observer and half of why the banshee was good is gone, or a HT feedback and half of your HP is gone. Personally, I LOVE going bio. I just like the way it works. But without being able to adapt or have any variation whatsoever is somewhat lame cause its so limiting. High Diamond Terran here, I personally have been having success with hellion based builds (either straight mech or sky terran with a hellion base). Siege tanks also are strong in TvP, but in a different way than against the squishy races. Don't expect their units to evaporate, plan for that, and you'll be fine. It seems difficult to complain about bio TvP when most people don't seem to be attempting anything else. Terran brothers, if you seek mech then develop it. If you seek the skies, take them. For those who prefer bio but are bored, use reapers mid-late game (they are wonderful). | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
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