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Russian Federation899 Posts
On October 03 2011 19:27 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:51 homeless_guy wrote:
Fairly objective post (I play T too). One thing I think you didn't consider, especially in Part 1, is that Blizz wanted to make the game different enough from BW that there was a reason to play it, besides new graphics. IMO, the real shame is the marauder is basically a glorified marine, and it has been untouched, while interesting units e.g. reapers and tanks were nerfed. agreed, as a matter of fact, how many units have been known to not have been changed? as in, what units have have the exact same stats as they did the very first time any knowledge was released to the public? as far as I know, these are the units that not been changed: all races: workers terran: marine (except for stim research) maruader (except for stim research) hellion (except for BF research) banshee ****************I think viking have had some change, but else this spot would say viking zerg: overlords (except for speed research (cost 50/50 in early beta)) zergling baneling ****************queen have had changes to their air attack right? hydralisk protoss: carrier DT correct me if im wrong
Marauders used to have their slow from the start of the game; hellions got +1/+1 damage upgrade instead of current just +1; hydralisk had 90 lIfe instead of 80
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I'm not a terran so I can't comment too much but I do feel like the warpgate mechanic is somewhat broken. Mutalisk are essentially not viable vs protoss unless that have 3 warpgates and went for tech after that, but that never happens anymore. Ever. Warpgate mechanics makes it basically impossible to do small, cost efficient harassment whether it be with a run-by or a drop. If I want to make a drop cost efficient I need to at least drop 8 hydras which is a ridiculous investment that needs to do ridiculous damage.
As you said, there's also the micro aspect. I feel like protoss has it more than any other race. If I have broodlords, I should be able to win against blink stalkers, for the simple reason that Ultralisk are bad against blink stalkers and all other protoss units even coupled with infestors. But, with good micro, he could be able to clean me up. 'Micro' will never save me if he does a 2 base collosus timing and I don't have a much higher army value. I also NEED to engage at the right place to get stalled by force field for only a minute.
I'm really starting to dislike some of the basic mechanics of the game..hope they change!
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Even if I totally aggree with the fact TvP is extremely boring, I don't understand at all why this post is featured O.O This is not even strategy, just some kind of complaining (totally understandable).
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On October 03 2011 19:17 infinitum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me! The OP made sense to me when I read it initially, but what Thorzain said makes more sense. Apparently if you're not microing in TVP battles, you're doing it wrong?
But Thorzain did not really address the OP's concerns. A lot of people take arguments too literally rather than trying to understand what the OP is trying to say.
TvP Bio may have a lot of micro, TvP Mech may not, but too many people justify current TvP by saying TvP Bio is micro intensive therefore good, well you can make things micro intensive and still be boring. ZvZ in BW is one of the most micro intensive yet most hated matchups.
The point about units like Tanks and Reavers is that they not only require micro, they also require strategy, positioning, and different kinds of micro depending on state (no shuttle reaver micro vs shuttle reaver micro, un-sieged attack micro vs sieging). Having area control allows players to make alternative tech patterns without getting destroyed before its even viable.
Marauder micro is always the same whether stimmed or not stimmed, engagements do not require much thought, Viking vs Colossus is a silly cat and mouse chase, etc.
MMMVG always devolves down to some predictable flowchart game, sure its micro intensive, just like ZvZ in BW or Ryu vs Ryu in SFII.
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Why is this featured? Can someone explain it to me please?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 03 2011 13:46 Caloreen wrote:
If you are using mech, why not use sensor towers to detect pylons or probes moving out to set up proxy pylons? Another idea, using ravens to defend warp-ins with auto turrets/PDD while tanks hold the front line. Hell why not both of them together that way your ravens will have more time to get to the location before damage even occurs.
I realize that's a lot of gas being invested into just keeping yourself alive, but I'm just throwing ideas out there.
Ravens cant really do anything against Protoss units except stalkers, too vulnerable to phoenix and feedback to be moving about too much as well.
Ravens are still awesome, just not for the role you are suggesting.
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Like someone said before, this thread seems to boil down to the OP's whim to use tanks in PvT, and how this game is broken because it isn't brood war. I personally am not one of the old guard weaned on brood war (started and was for a long time in the age of empires community), so I don't really understand how any of this is a criticism of the game's design.
In brood war or sc2, the game is to a large extent deterministic (in a theoretical sense, ignoring human error and unpredictability). The maps are fixed, the unit compositions and upgrades scale linearly for the most part, and certain positions and areas on the fixed maps will result in sure victory for particular unit combinations when microed to their theoretical optimum. This is different from the age series, in which some randomness was always inherent due to the random map mechanic, and other small game mechanics (not to say that this series did not suffer from the deterministic problem). I don't see why this thread is featured, since it doesn't really point out any deep flaws (non balance) in game design.
Chess is perfectly determined, yet our inability to comprehend the 'optimal' strategy in chess doesn't deprive us of perfectly entertaining games.
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On October 03 2011 20:33 chestnutcc wrote:
Like someone said before, this thread seems to boil down to the OP's whim to use tanks in PvT, and how this game is broken because it isn't brood war. I personally am not one of the old guard weaned on brood war (started and was for a long time in the age of empires community), so I don't really understand how any of this is a criticism of the game's design.
You are right in that the OP mourns the loss of tank play in TvP - but furthermore he critizises the central role of the marauder.
Meaning, not only are tanks pretty much gone, but they are replaced by the most boring unit imaginable. Terran can at least kite with them, but I, as protoss, have to spam chargelots that are un-micro-able by definition, once charge activates. Chargelot/templar vs marauder/ghost is a terrible, terrible set-up - the side that wins usually wins by a landslide and then continues to roflstomp through the remains. There is very little back and forth action in most (fortunately not all) games.
Compare this to TvZ, a match-up that could serve as basic definition of "back and forth" with marine/tank pushs.
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On October 03 2011 18:21 PredY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 03 2011 10:41 Zealot Lord wrote:
This is very well written - but I personally don't agree with some of the things. This: "unless we see a terran winning GSL/MLG/DH with mech in TvP" particularly bothers me, high level Korean terrans have been owning protoss players in GSL (aside from 1/1/1) with MMM+V/G for a while now, when you can consistently win with something, why would pro players, who play for money, bother to change with what works for no reason? Its so effective to the point that protoss players in code S are almost extinct. TvP in Korea at top levels has a win rate average of over 55+% the past five months - maybe someone like Huk/Jinro can shed some light on this, but I seriously doubt any of the top terrans in the OGS house would spend much of their time trying out new stuff as opposed to continually fine tuning their bio-centric play during practice.
It doesn't necessarily mean other unit compositions are unfeasible, I hate to bring up the points QQ'ers do, but there is some truth in that there isn't the incentive to innovate when you already dominate the matchup. I'm pretty sure that if marauders weren't so bloody good against protoss, you would have seen more players try to incorporate other units faster already.
Would it be any good? I don't know - point is, it takes time for metagame to develop, for instance blue flame hellions were sick good from release, however pretty much nobody used them in the first few seasons. They turned out to be so good that they had to be nerfed in the last patch, but it took almost a year for people to realize that. I definitely remember there used to be threads on TL complaining that bio was too good in TvT that the good ol' BW tank usage is all but gone in SC2, which clearly isn't the case anymore despite any significant patch changes regarding those units.
There is a ton of possibilities that haven't even been explored yet, to say that the game has already been completely figured out and that in TvP, bio is the only effective way you can play just can't be right. There are a lot of things which are heavily underused in TvP on GSL levels (such as sensor towers for one) which can definitely play a role in the usage of mech to help combat the loss in mobility in the matchup imo. But it won't happen anytime soon as long as Korean protoss players continue to struggle against existing terran builds.
i agree with you and i didn't really think about that before, but you're right there's no need to develop any new strategies since MMMGV works very well for the koreans. you know i was really happy when jinro used mech vs MC. i thought other koreans would build up on it. unfortunately that didn't happen. there's just no need to search for anything else besides MMMVG now.
yeah, I'm glad you also agree =) I mean I understand that as regular players, we all want to see different unit compositions being used, because its not just more fun to watch but to play yourself as well (we generally tend to only use units that pro's use afterall). I know a ton of non-protoss players who are hoping that carriers can one day be viable and such as well, so I can see what you are trying to get with your initial post - but give the game more time, I'm confident one day, sooner rather than later, we'll get to see more of Jinro like mech v MC lost temple type game.. hopefully :p
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lol, the real point of OP isn't only "omg i want to go tanks in tvp!!!!!111!"
No. He wants a unit that can control ground. Of course he is saying tanks, because they're the ONLY unit in the game that control ground. But if in HotS there's a non tank unit, I will be perfectly fine. Because at the actual state of the the game TvP doesn't really involve huge strategies. Yeah, there are many build orders to use, but Bo shouldn't be the only strategic component in a game. Basically (now I'm exaggerating a bit maybe) TvP is, after the opening phase, a race for eho build the most powerful ball, with the Terran player trying to drop (and hoping the Toss doesn't counter the drop).
Then there's the big fight (with all the storming, EMPing and stutterstepping we know), and 95% of the case the winner of the battle have won, simply because he has much more unit than the loser, who has no time to rebuild his army. Ball vs ball fight it's not that strategic. No. The only strategic part of TvP actually is dropping maybe, besides the build orders.
Ground controllin units allow for more strategies/tactics DURING the fight, They force the opponent to think how a general would think. Like, "Mmm this flank is very protected, but if I can distract the protecting units I can break his position"; the fights were more "extended" space-wise and time-wise. This kind of tactical thoughts are absent in the ball vs ball fight (no, stutterstepping isn't tactical  )
Also, ground contolling units allow the player who has less units to even stall the attacker, giving time to reproduce units lost. Instead TvP at the moment is usually won by the player who has more supply, and once you lose supply it's very hard to comeback.
P.S. Notice how i didn't use the word BW in my post.
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Sorry, double post 
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I can't remember the last thread with so many good players responding to it so frequently.
I have a simple question. Isn't Hellion/Tank/Thor + Ghosts aka ghostmech (cheers avilo) strong enough to stop this "1a into tanks" issue? I think I haven't seen a Protoss to 1a into this composition and walk away without heavy losses. With the ghost gas cost reduction and the fact you can allocate all your gas into armory upgrades I think its possible to get this army composition going relatively fast.
From a Protoss perspective either abusing immobility or some massive air switch is required.
While both scenarios seem viable, I see no problem with air play since a huge risk is involved here. So that leaves us with mobility as the remaining issue. And therefor I'm more concerned about Warp-in mechanic more than Zealots and Immortals being pretty good against siege tanks.
What I really hope for in Hots are upgrades for Terran mech units.
As it is now, most upgrades for Protoss units are insanely valuable against Terran mech units. Just think about it - there is not a single upgrade I can think of that is good for mech against Protoss. You have Charge, Blink, Thermal Lances, Hardened shields not even being an upgrade, Phoenixes lifting off sieged tanks. Then you have Infernal Preigniter, Seige, 250mm Cannon (?), HSM, Viking that can land..
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your points about being dead if you don't have the counter to templars and collosus goes both ways. if the p doesnt have templars or collosus they get utterly wrecked by bio.
I agree the matchup there is something wrong with it but I'm not quite sure how to fix it.
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The mechanics of the starcraft2 economy and resupply are to blame for the lack of back and forth in PvT. The presence of this in ZvT is more due to the structure of the zerg race imo. The concentration of workers in predictable locations, with predictable access routes (the maps are deterministic after all) makes harass play more and more difficult as the game progresses. Conversely a single successful drop or dt runby can end the game early on. The multitude of timing windows aside (1/1/1, immortal bust vs fe, 3 rax, 4 gate etc) macro games revolve around either side trying to have more and better than the other, and if they don't come the big engagement they lose right there, no matter what they did before that. Compared to this style of play, I prefer timing windows, which involve some amount of thought and guile to do and to counter. In my limited experience, mirror match ups also high light all these negative points (BO losses, timing windows etc)
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I agree with the thread starter and almost every comment here. Thanks god some1 address this issue.
TvZ n TvP is broken if you ask me. The only MU worthy to play now is TvT. Since the blue flame hellion nerf, Terran player would like to go for bio only. What the hell? That is so non-Terranish. The happy time of full mech just come and go in a short 1 month time. I'm pretty disappointed with how TvZ,TvP and TvT is evolving.
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Agree with OP, but people have beeing crying out for the removal of marauders since beta and it hasn't happened, and if you listen to Browder talk you'd think it was the greatest unit in the world, so I don't expect to see it gone, ever. But jesus I hate it. And colos as well.
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On October 03 2011 21:49 chestnutcc wrote:
The concentration of workers in predictable locations, with predictable access routes (the maps are deterministic after all) makes harass play more and more difficult as the game progresses. Conversely a single successful drop or dt runby can end the game early on.
You are somewhat right on the harassment, but I would cite different reasons
the problem with protoss SC2 harassment is that the investment you make is huge and the damage you have to do must therefore also be huge; in BW, DT-openeres weren't "that" gimmicky...because you end up with templar-tech, after all. The only gimmick is that you, in fact, build DTs. And the "opposite-cost" of not being able to, say, reaver drop.
In SC2 if you go DTs you better do some damage or you will be pretty dead.
That's the main reason why terran drops are so effective. They do "little but guaranteed" damage - even if the damage consists of pulling your opponent out of position, hampering his macro-consistency, etc. Because, even if you don't kill stuff, you want to have marines, marauders and medivacs anyways.
Protoss on the other hand only has gimmicky harassment units. A buffed prism doesn't change that a bit.
This is yet another reason why bio is so strong - because not only is it very good in fights, but it poses a constant threat of drops.
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To everyone that says "it's broke let's fix it" are ignoring the fundamental problem that the lead designer has already declared that Terran bio-balls vs Protoss are his choice for the state of the game.
Until he or his mind is changed, this is what'll be.
Everything in lore and ingame match, the state of the game as a result of the R&D from each races experience warring with the other two races:
- Protoss believes that tanks are OP and activate their ancient siege weapons, the colossi and rediscover ancient warp gate technology to level their mobility with the Terran and Zerg to be on par.
- Terran believe that Zealots are imba and develop the hellion to deal with their numbers and economise ghost development (lowered cost) to neutralise their shield advantage and HT storms.
- Zerg believe that marine and BC are OP and hence evolve the baneling (roach too) and corruptor/BL in response.
I like the backstory, it made sense, its the main reason why I'm in the "TvP is fine with bio-balls" camp. Edit: The story has still two more "expansions" to go, so it's not too late to convince Blizzard.
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On October 03 2011 21:55 jeffvip wrote:
I agree with the thread starter and almost every comment here. Thanks god some1 address this issue.
TvZ n TvP is broken if you ask me. The only MU worthy to play now is TvT. Since the blue flame hellion nerf, Terran player would like to go for bio only. What the hell? That is so non-Terranish. The happy time of full mech just come and go in a short 1 month time. I'm pretty disappointed with how TvZ,TvP and TvT is evolving.
Wtf... In TvZ we see Koreans go for Full Mech styles for the first time now... TvZ has never been as Mech heavy as it is right now!
In TvT we still see mostly mech (and a lot of airmech right now), but biomech and bio are at least available as openings right now.
Also neither TvP nor TvZ are broken right now. Slightly Terranfavored, yes. But thats just a phase of the metagame. CreatorPrime's build is catching on, and if PvZ ever stabilzes, both P and Z will have more solid players in Code S.
I really dont get those posts who want every Terran to play Mech-only in every MU.
Also I would like to add, that Zerg doesn't feel zergish at all. In every novel and every mission, Zerg is controlling whole planets. Why doesn't every game start with creep all over the map? Completly unzergish...
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On October 03 2011 22:01 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
To everyone that says "it's broke let's fix it" are ignoring the fundamental problem that the lead designer has already declared that Terran bio-balls vs Protoss are his choice for the state of the game.
Until he or his mind is changed, this is what'll be.
Everything in lore and ingame match, the state of the game as a result of the R&D from each races experience warring with the other two races:
- Protoss believes that tanks are OP and activate their ancient siege weapons, the colossi and rediscover the warp gate technology to level their mobility with the Terran and Zerg
- Terran believe that Zealots are imba and develop the hellion to deal with their numbers and economise ghost development (lowered cost) to neutralise their shield advantage and HT.
- Zerg believe that marine and BC are OP and hence evolve the baneling (roach too) and corruptor/BL in response.
I like the backstory, it makes sense, its the main reason why I'm in the "TvP is fine with bio-balls" camp.
Yeah except the lore is flat-out retarded and doesn't follow from original Starcraft lore at all.
Protoss just unlocking their ancient weapons is such a lame plot device. For one the theme for their weapons was that they were unweildy but powerful, cmon swords against guns, micro-manufacturing plants converted to create WMD's, resurrected units that ooze blue goo. This is because Protoss was never really a gung-ho galactic superpower like Terran, instead they united and highly valued peace. This is why the mothership and colossus sound so stupid, they were technologically advanced, but not in the same way as War of the Worlds.
Terran reverts from jet hover-bikes with 3 mini-nukes to flaming go-karts, and at the same time up the cost.
Although 2 scourge can do 220 flat damage combined for 75/25, for some reason a baneling for the same price can only do 20+15 damage? Huh?
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EPT
