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On September 25 2011 10:44 FluXen wrote:
Isnt the 7 roach opening killing a lot of eco, that if they went FE and walled off could put you severly behind in the early game and if they held the attack off
yes,i might say a little behind.But If your opponent know exactly you are going to 7 roach him,and you two are at the same level,his economy'll definitely put you behind at the early game.
So this is not a common opening,don't use it too frequent.But in BO5 or BO3,change your opening will surprise your opponent.
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On September 25 2011 12:41 Xanbatou wrote:
How does this fare against a terran that plays standard? Furthermore, isn't that roach opening just a 7 roach rush? I thought the community consensus was that thats not a good opening against any terran worth his salt.
EDIT: Also, I've been using that ZvZ strategy for a while, and it HAS serves me well. Unfortunately, I ran into a problem when I used it against a 15 hatch opening that just made a bunch of slow lings, built 2 spine crawlers at his natural expansion, and put all his lings and queens on the ramp while he waited for them to finish. There didn't seem to be a whole lot I could do =/
My 7 roach opening is not a rush.On most of the map,it is not suitable now because the distance is too far.But if you opponent goes for quick hellion or 1RAXCC or others,he'll lose his pace,and win you a great advantage at the early game.We have to change our style while playing,right?If you opponent know exactly you are going to a 15D quick expand,he can aim at this and prepare a particular opening for you.
What i am introducing is not to rush,but how to maximize economy while using this opening.The key to win is not how you micro your 7 roaches in the front but how to develop well at your base.
15 hatch really confused me as well,i'll try more to see if it works.The key is to hide your intention,you pretend to be a normal 13D speedling and block your ramp with 3 lings.May be he'll make more drones and less lings.
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On September 25 2011 13:16 Rasun wrote:
Great guide! ZvZ has always been my toughest match-up, and a few of your openings look really good and I will try them out for sure. Also the Roach push is interesting and something I will try, been having quite a bit of trouble against hellion openings so this should crush them. I am worried about FE builds against Terran on a map like Shakuras where they can wall off at their natural, isn't that givng up too much eco?
P.S. Your English was very good. ^^
Maps like Shakuras are really not suitable for any pushing at the early game,whatever 7 roach or banelings.Try them at the short-distance map or maps terran can't expand their natural safely.
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On September 25 2011 13:45 LXB3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:41 Xanbatou wrote:
How does this fare against a terran that plays standard? Furthermore, isn't that roach opening just a 7 roach rush? I thought the community consensus was that thats not a good opening against any terran worth his salt.
EDIT: Also, I've been using that ZvZ strategy for a while, and it HAS serves me well. Unfortunately, I ran into a problem when I used it against a 15 hatch opening that just made a bunch of slow lings, built 2 spine crawlers at his natural expansion, and put all his lings and queens on the ramp while he waited for them to finish. There didn't seem to be a whole lot I could do =/ My 7 roach opening is not a rush.On most of the map,it is not suitable now because the distance is too far.But if you opponent goes for quick hellion or 1RAXCC or others,he'll lose his pace,and win you a great advantage at the early game.We have to change our style while playing,right?If you opponent know exactly you are going to a 15D quick expand,he can aim at this and prepare a particular opening for you. What i am introducing is not to rush,but how to maximize economy while using this opening.The key to win is not how you micro your 7 roaches in the front but how to develop well at your base. 15 hatch really confused me as well,i'll try more to see if it works.The key is to hide your intention,you pretend to be a normal 13D speedling and block your ramp with 3 lings.May be he'll make more drones and less lings.
Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. What I was asking is how this is different from the 7RR build posted on liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_/_Expand_/_Lair
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On September 25 2011 15:02 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 13:45 LXB3 wrote:On September 25 2011 12:41 Xanbatou wrote:
How does this fare against a terran that plays standard? Furthermore, isn't that roach opening just a 7 roach rush? I thought the community consensus was that thats not a good opening against any terran worth his salt.
EDIT: Also, I've been using that ZvZ strategy for a while, and it HAS serves me well. Unfortunately, I ran into a problem when I used it against a 15 hatch opening that just made a bunch of slow lings, built 2 spine crawlers at his natural expansion, and put all his lings and queens on the ramp while he waited for them to finish. There didn't seem to be a whole lot I could do =/ My 7 roach opening is not a rush.On most of the map,it is not suitable now because the distance is too far.But if you opponent goes for quick hellion or 1RAXCC or others,he'll lose his pace,and win you a great advantage at the early game.We have to change our style while playing,right?If you opponent know exactly you are going to a 15D quick expand,he can aim at this and prepare a particular opening for you. What i am introducing is not to rush,but how to maximize economy while using this opening.The key to win is not how you micro your 7 roaches in the front but how to develop well at your base. 15 hatch really confused me as well,i'll try more to see if it works.The key is to hide your intention,you pretend to be a normal 13D speedling and block your ramp with 3 lings.May be he'll make more drones and less lings. Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. What I was asking is how this is different from the 7RR build posted on liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_/_Expand_/_Lair
Oh.It's the same thing what i want to share,no difference.But I think my detail of this strategy is worth sharing(like the push timing(4:55), overlord fyling path and spreading of creep),so i update my rep.Every detail at the early game is summed up by hundreds of games i've played and i had a good win ratio actually.If you can handle every single detail well,i think you'll find it much easier to play.
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I'm having a bunch of trouble with ZvZ recently, so I'll definitely try out your build - if nothing else, trying more stuff will help understanding. As for the rest, well, 7roach's worked well for me as a 2v2 rush, so maybe it'll work well for me as a 1v1 timing/stall tactic! Watching the replays now, but the theory's solid so I'm a happy platypus.
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On September 25 2011 07:01 DW-Unrec wrote:
This strategy is invalid.
Works only if you play vs someone that doesnt scout. If he sees the roaches its game over. 1 marauder + 2 bunkers its gg.
Considering most diamonds~grand masters scout the opponent. Hellions also are good scouts, the "2 lings early deny any scouting" is invalid. 1 minute later 2~4 hellions are at your ramp ready to roast and scout.
I'm not aggree. If the terran make marau and bunker. You gain a advantage. You forced him to retreat in this base and, you delay much possible him natural when you're droning. Just be carefull at banshee.
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very nice guide. i watched the replays and it has opened my strat book to a new page, definetly going to try some of these strats next few games :D
Thanks and keep it up 
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哥你有加战队吗？这帖很给力，我会好好读的。
或者有写中文版的吗？
(guys sorry for typing Chinese, but I cannot help! rarely can see posts written from a Chinese)
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On September 25 2011 16:14 LXB3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 15:02 Xanbatou wrote:On September 25 2011 13:45 LXB3 wrote:On September 25 2011 12:41 Xanbatou wrote:
How does this fare against a terran that plays standard? Furthermore, isn't that roach opening just a 7 roach rush? I thought the community consensus was that thats not a good opening against any terran worth his salt.
EDIT: Also, I've been using that ZvZ strategy for a while, and it HAS serves me well. Unfortunately, I ran into a problem when I used it against a 15 hatch opening that just made a bunch of slow lings, built 2 spine crawlers at his natural expansion, and put all his lings and queens on the ramp while he waited for them to finish. There didn't seem to be a whole lot I could do =/ My 7 roach opening is not a rush.On most of the map,it is not suitable now because the distance is too far.But if you opponent goes for quick hellion or 1RAXCC or others,he'll lose his pace,and win you a great advantage at the early game.We have to change our style while playing,right?If you opponent know exactly you are going to a 15D quick expand,he can aim at this and prepare a particular opening for you. What i am introducing is not to rush,but how to maximize economy while using this opening.The key to win is not how you micro your 7 roaches in the front but how to develop well at your base. 15 hatch really confused me as well,i'll try more to see if it works.The key is to hide your intention,you pretend to be a normal 13D speedling and block your ramp with 3 lings.May be he'll make more drones and less lings. Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. What I was asking is how this is different from the 7RR build posted on liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/7_Roach_Rush_/_Expand_/_Lair Oh.It's the same thing what i want to share,no difference.But I think my detail of this strategy is worth sharing(like the push timing(4:55), overlord fyling path and spreading of creep),so i update my rep.Every detail at the early game is summed up by hundreds of games i've played and i had a good win ratio actually.If you can handle every single detail well,i think you'll find it much easier to play.
Actually it has a few differences: later roaches and the 4 additional lings. It is harder to do damage with it, but it a bit less obvious with the 4 lings, since you can chase off scouts better and at least show some lings compared to the 7RR.
I have to say it feels very fluent and well timed; I will definately give it a try.
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Wow I just watched your ZvZ "throwing eggs mass infestor" I was sooo impressed!
103 workers.. wtf :D
Also the nydus using was so nice!
There was a thread here on Tl about the 7 Roach Rush into expand and everybody said that its not a strategy working on higher levels. nice to see you using it with success.
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always interesting to see freakin CHINESE SPEAKING PEOPLE forming more coherent sentences than most americans can manage. Very good english sir. and a good post.
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Wow..very well written guide, especially for someone whose English isn't his first language. I can see a lot of effort put into this. Thanks a lot man! :D
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On September 26 2011 05:25 Moldwood wrote:
It's always interesting to see freaking CHINESE SPEAKING PEOPLE forming more coherent sentences than most Americans can manage. Very good English sir, and a good post.
This is TL, not English class - there are plenty of grammatical/spelling errors in the average post, and that's okay. Consider how much of a dicktool I look like right now because of the above corrections - don't be that guy, even in broad terms.
Anyway, I tried out the ZvZ build, and it's awesome. Excellent timing attack that makes the economic followup really hard to deal with. I tend to transition out of it with a fast expansion into roaches, but there are plenty of other options. I also prefer to keep my lings back until speed finishes, to make sure I exploit that window with maximum possible numbers. I've also seen the replays of the rest of it, and I like it a lot, though the mass spine/muta ZvT isn't really my style, and neither is main trading as a game plan. Still, I'll definitely be doing 7roach pressure more often, and fast gas 11overpool is probably going to be my go-to ZvZ build.
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On September 26 2011 01:38 lhr0909 wrote:
哥你有加战队吗？这帖很给力，我会好好读的。
或者有写中文版的吗？
(guys sorry for typing Chinese, but I cannot help! rarely can see posts written from a Chinese)
你有QQ吗？PM告诉我吧
总之其他的PM跟我说吧
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Great job man, your English is better than mine! great contribution, keep it up
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On September 26 2011 06:50 CaptainPlatypus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 05:25 Moldwood wrote:
It's always interesting to see freaking CHINESE SPEAKING PEOPLE forming more coherent sentences than most Americans can manage. Very good English sir, and a good post. This is TL, not English class - there are plenty of grammatical/spelling errors in the average post, and that's okay. Consider how much of a dicktool I look like right now because of the above corrections - don't be that guy, even in broad terms. Anyway, I tried out the ZvZ build, and it's awesome. Excellent timing attack that makes the economic followup really hard to deal with. I tend to transition out of it with a fast expansion into roaches, but there are plenty of other options. I also prefer to keep my lings back until speed finishes, to make sure I exploit that window with maximum possible numbers. I've also seen the replays of the rest of it, and I like it a lot, though the mass spine/muta ZvT isn't really my style, and neither is main trading as a game plan. Still, I'll definitely be doing 7roach pressure more often, and fast gas 11overpool is probably going to be my go-to ZvZ build.
Learning English Time,any one can explain what does"exploit that window" mean?
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Wow, very nice guide. Your ZvT sounds solid!
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On September 25 2011 10:42 LXB3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 09:34 evanthebouncy! wrote:
looks solid. I love ur late game hahaha, 狗B ftw!! You know what"狗B“mean?It's a "F" word in chinese,hah
I love some of the BMs in the replays LOL
it was quite amazing to see how chinese BM, makes the english BM looks so weak in comparison
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EPT
