|
Masters zerg. Title pretty much sums it up. The past few weeks I've won a small ammount of TvZ's, and the wins generally are because of some sort of all in. Terran bunker rushes, I defend with lings then lose to hellion follow up. Terran opens hellion and I defend with Roaches, then follows up with a tank timing in which I can't stop because I've spent all my early gas on Roaches rather than tech for Mutas. I can't expand, I can't pressure, I literally fucking blow in every aspect of TvZ as of late.
WHAT can I do to change this??? I know exactly why I'm losing each game, and I just can't seem to correct anything. I get fucking controlled and picked apart and I can't do anything but play their game or I just end up losing quicker rather than later. Should I get late gas and just drone to hell and drop 1947514975981745y6 Spinecrawlers? Should I all in every game?
I realize this looks like more of a vent than help thread, but I would absolutely love if anyone has had a similiar issue and found a way to make TvZ's less painful.
Finding replay(s) to add..
*Edit* Bumping the link from a few posts down
http://www.mediafire.com/?92q7wd1o2sq0w8a
Sorry for the bit of BM at the start, I had played the same opponent a game before, and he really took pride in trying to humiliate me.
**Edit** While I'll take any help/criticism gladly, I just want to point out that my biggest issue is the transition into mid game. I can hold off early harass well, and if I can get to mid game I'm fine as well. I don't exactly need help in either the early or late game aspects of ZvT. Meta game is what kills me, as seeing a tech lab on a Factory could be either Blue Flame OR Siege (I've actually re-watched games where Terran's have revealed a Hellion coming out, but were actually researching Siege. It just completely catches me off guard).
|
infester good unit.
User was warned for this post
|
I have found that speedling opening is way better than early hatch, espsecially if ur drone micro is not spectacular or anything. This combine with throwing down a relatively early macro hatch touching the bottom of the ramp to ur natural (to close the gap between the natural hatch and ramp) + a crawler between the two is extremely effective in fending off hellions with just lings, (if u see more than 4 or anticipate more than 4, throw down 2 more crawlers. During this a fast +1 melee is very helpful and with 3 hatch, u can hold off 3 tank pushes really easily with just +1 lings (plus fast evo allows for panic spores if they aint doing that). But waitin on replays
|
Switch to terran for a bit. I found after playing TvZ for a while, my ZvT got a lot better. Or at least I know what to do and how to play it now.
|
Without a replay I'm just guessing but perhaps you aren't using speed banelings and good creep spread effectively? Those tank pushes terran do are meant to kill muta users. If you're going roaches and still losing to early tank pushes something is up. If its later tank pushes that you are having trouble with then there are many different options to deal with that. But it would be best to discuss that over a replay.
|
Now that's funny. I'm high diamond (worse than you obviously), and i didn't win a single ZvT in my last 15 ZvT or so... I can't really understand why, I feel like i don't understand the match up anymore...Have all terrans improved recently :D ?
|
Sorry for the wait, here's one replay in particular that I lose quite horribly..
http://www.mediafire.com/?92q7wd1o2sq0w8a
Sorry for the bit of BM at the start, I had played the same opponent a game before, and he really took pride in trying to humiliate me. Anyways, in this particular game I tried to get Mutas as fast as I could over tech (which ended up going pretty badly) as the previous game the guy really utilized drop harass. @Maniac, I completely agree with you about my creep spread. It's been more than lackluster as of late..and maybe I should have gotten less Muta's and more Banelings with speed.
I think another issue of mine is I gauge each game based on my last opponent. A really bad habbit I've had since I started playing Starcraft, as I prepare for one particular build/counter, but instead get another. Scouting was a huge issue of mine on this map as well, and I really need to work on it more as well. But yea..there's the replay..feel free to pick me apart, I'll take any criticism that comes my way.
**Link is bad..trying to update it again T.T
***New link
|
@Lasbike, I know exactly what you mean. TvZ used to honestly be my favored matchup as once I deflect harass I can really macro up a storm. But it just feels like I..forgot how to play TvZ? I know that sounds weird and isn't the case, but I just don't think I'm evolving my play. I need more Inftestor play, but I generally mix them in late game with Ultras. Mid game is just a pain in the ass for me right now, and I just can't seem to wrap my head around what I need to do differently. Scouting is huge, so is creep spread, but it still feels like I'm missing something more..
|
im high diamond as well and i feel exactly the same, i did like zvt alot a while ago but now...one time i dont build roaches --> hellions kill me, then i build roaches but later mutas and drop harass kills me, then i try some early soines and fast muta and get killed by an early tank marnie push. sometimes i know that better creep spread or scouting would have helped but sometimes i have no clue what to do better, like the one time i got a random opponent and went 14gas-14pool, because thats what i do vs random he was terran and did a 1 rax fe..his expansion was earlier than mine and altough i felt i was playing well i lost and when i asked him what my mistakes were he said it was a bo loss..thats kinda sad, but thats just one game, ilose alot with 15 hatch as well, i still find it hard to defend very all-inish 2 rax plays with 3 or 4 scvs..  hoping for help
the funny thing is...while my zvt got a lot worse my zvp got alot better at the same time, before zvp was by far my worst match ups and i was winning only with all-ins but not that i fixed it zvt is the same...im trying banelingbusts and early roach attacks .. :/
|
Everyone just take a deep breath and remember, the metagame is the only thing distrupting you right now. How did you get to Masters? What strategies did you have to fend off along the way?
Picture this. People were using hellions over a year ago with effectiveness, but people found a way to combat them. They've returned, in force, and people are once again being forced to combat them. Marine/tank pushes? Yes they're hard! But your opponent wouldnt be where they are if they couldnt execute it at least relatively well. What are your options? What mechanics are you missing? How did people hold the marine/tank push 6 months ago? How did they fend it off in meta-close positions?
Good luck. From what I remember, ling+speedbanes was the most popular marine/tank holdoff when it first became really really good. Creep spread obvs incredibly important, as well as the initial engagement + surround. If your spread sucks right now, grab a 3rd queen and spread a tumor with it every time you inject with your other 2.
|
I'm high diamond, but I think spreading your creep like a boss will help. The tank/marine follow up timing push can be handled a bit better if you engage on creep. Also, catching the tanks out of siege is important, and cutting off reinforcements will help. If you spread your creep far enough, the timing push will be a bit slower, and you can usually get 1 or 2 more injects in before he gets to your base. Not sure if that helps, but, there's my $0.02.
|
You have to hold off helion harass without roaches. It can be difficult but you just have to position your buildings and your units well, if you do that, you'll be pretty far ahead.
|
watch some DRG vods imo. He says he fears no terran. He must be doing something right.
|
|
|
Why exactly should this be closed? I followed every guideline, with the exception of adding [H] in the title. I've been watching VODs, as well as spending time on other forums so I haven't responded to this in about an hour or so.
Anyways, @cmizzles I know what you mean with holding hellion harass with Roaches, but it almost seems like when I do my T opponent can just easily back off and not harass, which in turn sets ME back. @Jubio Looking for some DRG vods as we speak lol, I'm really trying to incorperate a Stephano-esque b/o of upgraded lings/blinds/ and eventually, ultras/blords.
I really don't have a good ZvT saved with the exception of that horrible game I have posted up there. Will be playing a lot of games tonight and if I happen to get a game that will really compliment any of my issues I'll edit it in.
|
Diamond zerg. I was about to post the exact same thing, so wow, good thing you did before me. I die to basically everything terran does. 2 racks = death. BFH elevator drops = death. Cloacked banshees = death. Fast 3 tank push = death. Turtle mech = death.
ZvP it's the opposite, I basically win 95% of my games. So what, are terran players that much better? I feel they have so much potential early game that you have to account for and to hold all the different types of assaults you have to be SO spot on with everything.... it's so frustrating I'm barely even playing the game these days.
|
On September 19 2011 07:53 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Masters zerg. Title pretty much sums it up. The past few weeks I've won a small ammount of TvZ's, and the wins generally are because of some sort of all in. Terran bunker rushes, I defend with lings then lose to hellion follow up. Terran opens hellion and I defend with Roaches, then follows up with a tank timing in which I can't stop because I've spent all my early gas on Roaches rather than tech for Mutas. I can't expand, I can't pressure, I literally fucking blow in every aspect of TvZ as of late.
WHAT can I do to change this??? I know exactly why I'm losing each game, and I just can't seem to correct anything. I get fucking controlled and picked apart and I can't do anything but play their game or I just end up losing quicker rather than later. Should I get late gas and just drone to hell and drop 1947514975981745y6 Spinecrawlers? Should I all in every game?
I realize this looks like more of a vent than help thread, but I would absolutely love if anyone has had a similiar issue and found a way to make TvZ's less painful.
Finding replay(s) to add..
This sounds like how my TvZ used to be. Until the sever merge and virtually all my games being TvZ which forced it into my best matchup.
I play T. From the Terran pov I can say most of my games I open reactor hellions FE to deny creep into a tank-shield-stim timing push and most of my wins come from Zerg overreacting to my hellions and bad engagements from them. They don't try to surround, they waste lings, they counter-attack into a wall of depots, TL;DR lots of bad decision making.
If I played Zerg I would open 15 hatch and go Muta every fucking ZvT. Infestors make me a happy turtle  .
|
On September 19 2011 09:24 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Why exactly should this be closed? I followed every guideline, with the exception of adding [H] in the title. I've been watching VODs, as well as spending time on other forums so I haven't responded to this in about an hour or so.
Anyways, @cmizzles I know what you mean with holding hellion harass with Roaches, but it almost seems like when I do my T opponent can just easily back off and not harass, which in turn sets ME back. @Jubio Looking for some DRG vods as we speak lol, I'm really trying to incorperate a Stephano-esque b/o of upgraded lings/blinds/ and eventually, ultras/blords.
I really don't have a good ZvT saved with the exception of that horrible game I have posted up there. Will be playing a lot of games tonight and if I happen to get a game that will really compliment any of my issues I'll edit it in.
Please refer to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266839#14
For those of you posting threads:[list]
[*]If you don't properly tag your thread, your thread will be CLOSED.
Edit, apologies I quoted only one of the two parts, the other part says no replay = ban.
|
@Alpino That sounds a lot like my TvZ's haha. In the particular video I linked I did indeed open 15 hatch with early Muta's in mind, but ended up being forced into a handful of Roaches to deflect Hellions. Once I get the ball rolling [so to speak] and get a reasonable ammount of Muta's out I can control the game from there on and for the most part win. It's just a real pain right now trying to get into the mid-game with some speed.
|
The main problem is probably your opening. Look at some LiquidRet and Idra replays ZvT, as they both have very standard ZvTs.
The safest way to open currently is with a fast lair. 15 Hatch 16 Pool 17 Gas. First 100 gas Ling speed, you can now either take no drones off gas or take 1-2. I prefer taking 1 drone of gas, put it back when lair starts. Your goal is quick Muta or quick banelings speed, depending on scouting info. Because your lair is so quick, you dont need both queens constantly spitting larva, you can start 2 creep tumors early.
Get a macro hatch when you can afford it after Spire and get a 3rd queen quickly (Key queen here).
With the above goal in mind here are some responses to common openings:
Reactor Hellion Expand: 3 Queen 1-2 Spine Crawler defense with a couple lings. Bring down your main queen at first until 3rd queen pops. Count how many hellions Terran makes and react with roaches if nessesary. If you repel the reactor-hellion poke, the Marine-Tank follow up is easy, you should have muta in time. Remember 8 Muta + Baneling Speed is >>> than 11 Muta no baneling speed.
Marine-Blue-Flame hellion-Drop after Expo(Slayers Build): The trick here is to use the tumor that connected your main to your natural to spread creep around the edges of your main. Any prime elevator spots should be creeped up. This allows your 3 queens to attack any medivacs attempting to elevator. If you stop the elevator the attack is much easier to defend until Mutas arrive.
Other than those two openings, goal of fast Mutas, Lots of creep spread, early 3rd queen should set you up for the Mid-Game.
ZvT is a battle of Mechanics. Can your Muta Harass + Macro keep up with Terran Pushes and drops.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
