EPT[H] I can't beat Terran anymore; TvZ - Page 2
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Frumpysnoo
United States247 Posts
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
Here's some things you can do better. Creep spread. Put tumors down earlier. Creep spread should start at like 3 or 4 minutes not 9 minutes. Don't make so many roaches if you aren't going to attack. 3 or 4 is more then enough to defend against a lot of hellions. You even had a spine crawler up which was overkill on defense. Keep control of the watch towers if you have roaches vs hellions. There's no reason not to have them. You had no map vision and you were building drones, taking a third and making a spire when he was moving out to attack. Get zergling speed much sooner. No brainer. Speedlings kill un-upgraded marines and tanks much faster then roaches do. Get gases up slightly sooner. Put an overlord behind his expansion so you can check when he expands, how many gases he takes and how many scv's he makes. All of this should have added up to you crushing that tiny little tank push the moment he steps onto creep. After that you could have expanded and gone mutas safely and probably won or at least done much better. | ||
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Theeakoz
United States1114 Posts
On September 19 2011 09:15 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: Please close this thread and ban OP, as per your guidelines. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210370 Thanks in advance, admins. User was temp banned for this post. LOL, hmm I think people need to calm down and stop bashing each other in this site. Also with regards to the title, TvZ is what the matchup is called from the terran's perspective, since your a zerg, you need to call it ZvT.  | ||
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
On September 19 2011 12:33 Theeakoz wrote: LOL, hmm I think people need to calm down and stop bashing each other in this site. Also with regards to the title, TvZ is what the matchup is called from the terran's perspective, since your a zerg, you need to call it ZvT. Definitely listen to this guy. It makes the thread much more understandable. | ||
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ETisME
12283 Posts
There are some maps where once you scouted the factory with reactor, it would be too late to build the roache warren and the 3rd queen (not a big fan of super early third queen) and at least ten drones will be roasted. In some maps, it is easier to defend because of chock points but I find the worst thing about them is that they deny creep tumors really well, it is much harder to deal with the upcoming marine tank push when there is not enough creep. I do think that you can try to do a roache, ling baneling muta style which I have seen from fruitdealer and losira in a few games. | ||
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Frumpysnoo
United States247 Posts
So what I've taken from all this is: 1) CREEP CREEP CREEEEEEEEEEP 2) Check gasses for a tell-tale on tech 3) Upgrades > A few more Mutalisks 4) Macro hatch a bit before the 3rd or to compliment it I'm going to ladder tonight with all things considered and try to put into effect all said things. Again, I've been having very off games against Terran but I think I just need to get out of this bad habbit/slump that I've sort of fallen in to. My ZvZ is undoubtedly fine, and my PvZ is just as if not better. Once I get through this ZvT phase..I think I'll be good to progress farther down the ladder. @Theeakoz Aghhh, yea that makes sense.. I really should have done some digging on the proper format to a thread in the Strategy forum before posting. | ||
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OpAndroid
United States84 Posts
That game specifically, I don't feel you had a good plan going into it. You hardly droned up, trying to rush as fast as possible to spire, and on top of that got quite a few pretty unnecessary roaches, further delaying your tech. The roaches kept you super turtely, and without ling speed you had no map presence, meaning terran can just waltz across the map, siege up in the perfect position he wants, and then get maximum efficiency out of his few units. I would merely suggest to try and avoid roach, get a solid defense up with lings and spines, and if you still feel scared, you can take your third as a macro hatch in your main, get your spire out behind around 55 drones and then use mutas to retake map control and safely take your third base. I used to be having a lot of trouble with ZvT until I worked some things out with a pretty high level terran, and am now winning close to 70% of them at mid masters. A few other things he emphasized were never letting money climb up, which I always used to do when playing muta ling bling, as I would wait for the big battle and then try and remax on infestors and broods, and to try and hit a max as quickly as possible, then use that max to deny bases and scouting with speedlings and mutas running everywhere, while also mass expanding, so maybe that will help you too. ALSO, its ZvT if you play Zerg, TvZ if you play Terran, lol. Makes things hard to follow. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
However, the answer is not simply "Go mass speedlings to stop the hellion harass" because doing so will get you killed to blueflame. However, here's the basic gist of it. If the terran transitions into a marine tank timing push--defending with speedlings allows you to get to lair tech in order to stop the tank push. If terran transitions into blueflame--defending with roaches allows you to actually stop the blueflame follow up. The problem? If you defend one and terran is doing the other, you lose. Scout better doesn't feel like good advice but I feel that it's the best you can do  | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches. if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push. if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates. every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree. if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae. remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva. | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
not sure why you are having trouble mid game, thats the time for zerg to shine in this matchup. muta is still the best option these days, and proper muta harass is where you build your advantage. one thing i would recommend doing is have your bane nest by the time lair finishes, and get baneling speed after you start your spire. you will have a muta or 2 less than you would, but you will have time to make lings and morph them to kill any timing. until a lot of turrets or thors are out, your mutas are a pin that allow you to build your late game economy while harassing. dont lose mutas needlessly, but dont be afraid to attack a mineral line with 2 turrets and no marines or a few isolated marines. your mutas make terran drops risky and wasteful in general at this time, but many will still try, so make sure you have a comprehensive overlord spread at this stage. if he is taking his third and has a low tank count, feel free to punish hard with ling/bane. more likely you are going to get your third droned and fourth started while adding infestation pit before he slowly establishes his 3rd safely, and the game transitions into the start of the late game. infestors, upgrades, and tech should be prioritized if he has successfully taken a third and has a solid defense. one thing not nearly enough zergs do is to add multiple spines and even a spore to their expos to protect from drops. you are going to have an abundance of minerals once you hit 4+ bases, and a small investment in static defense can shut down one of the most powerful tools in the terran late game arsenal. he can still kill your spines 1 by 1 if he controls properly, but you will have plenty of time to respond. a key point is here is that even if you retained mutas, he WILL begin to drop at this stage. you should have burrowed lings at his remaining expos by now, and be ready to punish his 4th. 3 base terran can be scary, but his only hope to defeat hive at this point is to rush ghosts and vikings, and these are both slow to replenish on 3 base. if you have a much greater economy or are ahead in army, broods are the seige unit that let you finish him off. if your harass went well and your economy stayed relatively powerful, you should hit a powerful infestor brood timing that will be tough for him to stop. it is true that ghost/viking can beat this, but you will generally hit before he has a significant number of either. make sure to keep some corruptors to protect your broods. if its 5 or more bases to 3, leaning on him with this composition and/or ultras will wear him out soon. if the terran gets a solid 4 bases running, you should have a sense of urgency as his composition properly controlled will starve you out with cost effectiveness if it gets to anything resembling split map | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote: TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500. get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches. if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push. if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates. every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree. if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae. remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva. marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote: marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)" | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote: I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)" How do you stop multiprong drops coupled with mass expanding vs terran? I usually love it when Zerg goes heavy roaches because it allows me to drop him a lot while turtling off of 3 bases and slowly getting a 4th and 5th until I not only have more bases than Zerg but I eventually have so many barracks that I just outmacro roach production. I'm curious just so I can be better prepared for when I start getting matched up against better players thanks | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On September 19 2011 14:15 lorkac wrote: How do you stop multiprong drops coupled with mass expanding vs terran? I usually love it when Zerg goes heavy roaches because it allows me to drop him a lot while turtling off of 3 bases and slowly getting a 4th and 5th until I not only have more bases than Zerg but I eventually have so many barracks that I just outmacro roach production. I'm curious just so I can be better prepared for when I start getting matched up against better players thanks save one base, sack another, and still be ahead in eco compared to the terran. Last time I played the T where I massed roaches up to 200, I got 6 bases by about 20 minutes, including the gold, on Xelnaga Cavern. GL making a drop meaningful under those conditions. the moment I spot a drop I usually create 6-8 drones instantly and send ti to a a low or no saturation base, and just keep making roaches. Rebuild once the base is destroyed, while counterattacking. Under these conditions it is my hope that they keep making tanks and marines. I usually end up stutter stepping against their army while its on the move, and burrowing once I've done enough damage and a lot of roaches are at half health, this causes a scan, where I unburrow and finish off the enemy, and I've also degraded his economy via the scan. if they do this long enough trading so badly, by the time any of them try using marauders, my macro allows me to remax lings so quickly their attempts are pointless. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On September 19 2011 13:28 lorkac wrote: This is a pretty damn tough scouting problem. I mean, you HAVE to spot the actual units coming out of the factory, as either way it's going to be a factory + tech lab with research going. I feel like you need to commit to roaches much earlier if you're going to actually stop blue flame harrass.I actually prefer it if Zerg responds roaches to hellion pressure because it allows me to do a lot of medivac harass as I do a slow tank push. However, the answer is not simply "Go mass speedlings to stop the hellion harass" because doing so will get you killed to blueflame. However, here's the basic gist of it. If the terran transitions into a marine tank timing push--defending with speedlings allows you to get to lair tech in order to stop the tank push. If terran transitions into blueflame--defending with roaches allows you to actually stop the blueflame follow up. The problem? If you defend one and terran is doing the other, you lose. Scout better doesn't feel like good advice but I feel that it's the best you can do | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On September 19 2011 10:08 Frumpysnoo wrote: @Kajarn Thanks for the input man, really some insightful tips. I always have a plan such as this, but can never quite execute it for either macro's sake or overreacting to pressure. I don't use macro hatches quite often, and maybe it's another one of my downfalls. And yea, I completely agree with "8 Muta + Baneling Speed is >>> than 11 Muta no baneling sp" I remember something Idra said about macro hatch on his stream. In his standard game, so 15 hatch>speedlings>banelings>mutas>3ed He would basically make a macro hatch before his mutas come out IF he was allowed to saturate both of his bases and T didn't do any significant dmg to him. And then normally expand to 3ed with his mutas. P.S I have the same problem with ZvP  Just can't wrap my head around the MU :/ | ||
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ragedaemon
United States23 Posts
Personally, I don't like the roach warren as a response to hellions because if you think about it, 1 roach warren+2-3 roaches (you made 7), and a spine is already 4-5 drones and ~300-400 minerals/gas gone that you could have used for teching up or making more drones. I find it much more efficient to block the ramp w. my nat queen, make 2 spine crawlers, and around 3-4 sets of lings. This way, you are free to use gas for lair and teching up, instead of roaches which have almost no use later on. Making 7 roaches was quite a bit for just a few hellions. 2-3 would have been enough to scare him away. Because you made 7 roaches instead of either 2-3 roaches, or lings+spines, you lost a LOT of minerals that could have gone into drones. I also prefer to make a baneling nest before spire, because sometimes with spire, you're stuck in an uncomfortable situation where you have mutas and he's pushing, but nothing to deal w. marines aside from lings, which kinda just die to rines+tanks. It'll also allow you to get baneling speed faster, which is essential to defeating 2 base pushes from the terran. Overall, I think your play was decent, but you sacrificed too much early economy, and you didn't get your baneling nest up fast enough. If you really want to get mutas quickly, here's my general build order (this has worked for me very well even in high masters, and i can say that zvt is my strongest mu by far, around 80-90% w/l ratio). 13 scout, 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas@100 min, 17 overlord, when pool finishes, queen at main and nat hatch, 2 sets of lings, get lings speed and take drones off gas, 1 ling@watchtower, rest go to scout, 31 (or @25drones) put 3 back on gas, make 3-4 lings+spines if he's going hellion expo (the cool thing about this build is that speed finishes just a bit after the hellions leave the terran base), @100 gas lair, get 2 more gas geysers, @50 gas, go baneling nest, then when lair is finished, spire, centrifugal hooks, when spire is finished, +1 for mutas/5-6 mutas. You should be droning accordingly all this time (depending on what you scuot), and get your 3rd AFTER mutas pop. With the gas, keep on going mutas, until he pushes. You never want to make too many banelings, which take away from ur muta count until later in the game. If you get your 3rd before the mutas pop, if he pushes you'll be screwed because you'll have low economy, low army (imagine some lings+2 blings+8mutas v rine/tank/medivac). The 3rd might seem late, but because you're harrassing, he'll be afraid to move out, and you'll be able to get a 4th relatively quicly and drone up a lot. If you need more help, pm me and I'll give you my b.net id so we can talk on bnet. good luck :D | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
When you scout the ramp you see reactored factory that just made hellions. If he doesnt change addon it means BFH? What is the time he should change it latest? | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
But you're probably just bad at the moment. keep grinding games and you'll solve it. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote: I don't like how you laid down one spinecrawler early (you could have waited till around 32-33 and it would have been fine). Incomplete advice. This dies to gas first reactor hellion. On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote: 13 scout, 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas@100 min, 17 overlord, when pool finishes, queen at main and nat hatch, 2 sets of lings, get lings speed and take drones off gas, 1 ling@watchtower, rest go to scout, 31 (or @25drones) put 3 back on gas, make 3-4 lings+spines if he's going hellion expo (the cool thing about this build is that speed finishes just a bit after the hellions leave the terran base), This is wrong. Hatch pool gas never has speed before 12 rax 13 gas hellions leave, unless your opponent is incompetent or they're doing a non-reactor hellion build. | ||
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