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On September 19 2011 15:01 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:28 lorkac wrote:I actually prefer it if Zerg responds roaches to hellion pressure because it allows me to do a lot of medivac harass as I do a slow tank push. However, the answer is not simply "Go mass speedlings to stop the hellion harass" because doing so will get you killed to blueflame. However, here's the basic gist of it. If the terran transitions into a marine tank timing push--defending with speedlings allows you to get to lair tech in order to stop the tank push. If terran transitions into blueflame--defending with roaches allows you to actually stop the blueflame follow up. The problem? If you defend one and terran is doing the other, you lose. Scout better doesn't feel like good advice but I feel that it's the best you can do  This is a pretty damn tough scouting problem. I mean, you HAVE to spot the actual units coming out of the factory, as either way it's going to be a factory + tech lab with research going. I feel like you need to commit to roaches much earlier if you're going to actually stop blue flame harrass.
His claims are incorrect.
Roaches can stop a marine tank timing push, but it's not optimal.
Ling bane can stop blue flame just fine, but it's not optimal.
I play high masters korea and memorize progames of top zergs.
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On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)"
Your claims revolve around your MMR, but the amount of holes in a diamond or master player's game in NA is humongous.
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On September 19 2011 14:15 lorkac wrote:How do you stop multiprong drops coupled with mass expanding vs terran? I usually love it when Zerg goes heavy roaches because it allows me to drop him a lot while turtling off of 3 bases and slowly getting a 4th and 5th until I not only have more bases than Zerg but I eventually have so many barracks that I just outmacro roach production. I'm curious just so I can be better prepared for when I start getting matched up against better players thanks 
There's a few things you can do to make it easier to deal with drops. Keep in mind you won't stop them. Only mutas can "stop" them. But you can see them coming and deal with them when they land. And put enough pressure on the terran that loading up multiple dropships worth of marines is extremely risky.
The most important thing to do is get overlord speed and spread your overlords everywhere. If don't see the drops coming you're gonna get completely owned. This also has the added benefit of making it more difficult for the terran to pick off overlords and supply block you.
Get banelings and baneling speed (at least start it researching) before he starts his drops. Roaches don't deal with drops well. Roaches deal damage slowly so its easy for the terran to escape. Banelings on the other hand do great. The terran can't be paying complete attention to all his drops at once. It will be extremely hard for him to out micro your banelings and comparably easy for you.
OMG get burrow! I think someone in this thread questioned using burrow? Ok, aside from the fact that you can heal your roaches, bait scans and plant baneling mines. You can save all of your drones from dying to a drop! Here's a secret. Terran are dropping mules as soon as they have the energy. Half the time they won't be able to scan when you burrow. They won't have the energy. And if they do you just made them use 300 minerals. Which will probably be about the cost of replacing the drones you lose. If you burrow them before the drop lands they may not even see it and think its an empty mineral line.
Right so you're now defending your bases with a minimal amount of units and effort but you still have a problem. You can't counter attack the terran because he's hiding behind 1 or 2 siege tanks and 1 or 2 bunkers. Even if he loses all his drops completely he's in no real danger because you don't have mutas.
So you get a nydus network. You already have overlord speed so you place overlords all over the edges of his base. He now has to commit to defending the entire perimeter of his base rather then just his natural. On some maps this will be absolutely impossible at this stage in the game. Combined with the fact that he's using a significant portion of his army to drop you he will be hard pressed to defend. It will get progressively worse for him the more spread out he becomes.
How you use this advantage is situational. Here's my favorite. I start a nydus in his main and que up another at his natural. If one goes up I send through everything I have. I burrow 2 or 3 roaches immediately (its unlikely he'll see this use them later to kill scv's if you have to evacuate). When he gets there if I can't beat his army I send everything back through. If the other worm came up I come out on that side. If neither goes up and I lured enough of his army into his main I attack his natural as it will be only lightly defended. If its to risky I just showed him he has to defend his perimeter now.
He now has to worry about a possible base trade if he moves out to soon and of course the fact that if he moves out to soon he could get completely mobbed by mass roach/ling/bane before he can siege his tanks. That gives you a lot of breathing room. You won't have to deal with him moving out early and setting up sieged tanks right in your face. You should expand immediately and preferably to a far away expansion that he's unlikely to scout. Set up a nydus there to get your queen/drones there quickly.
You can also spread creep in front of his base which is kinda funny. Assuming you have map control which you should. Nydus outside his natural beyond his vision range. Bring a queen through and plant a few creep tumors. Then send it back through. Now you can gank him as soon as he steps out of his base. He can't kite your banes if he doesn't clear this out which buys you extra time. Of course this is completely situational if you've already brought up a few nydus wyrms you probably don't want to over spend on them or you will end up getting behind.
It's a very fun style to play so GL HF.
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Since most terrans are going for hellion first openers how about getting fast roaches and putting some pressure on them while you expand? If they are opening hellions you'll likely be able to snipe some rines and SCVs while delaying their mining. It worked for DRG in a couple of his games against Thorizain although admittedly in one of them Thorizain was being super greedy.
I've been finding myself at lowly platinum level that terrans do seem to be getting better at stopping muta harass and putting more constant pressure on.
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On September 19 2011 16:08 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote:
I don't like how you laid down one spinecrawler early (you could have waited till around 32-33 and it would have been fine). Incomplete advice. This dies to gas first reactor hellion. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote:
13 scout, 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas@100 min, 17 overlord, when pool finishes, queen at main and nat hatch, 2 sets of lings, get lings speed and take drones off gas, 1 ling@watchtower, rest go to scout, 31 (or @25drones) put 3 back on gas, make 3-4 lings+spines if he's going hellion expo (the cool thing about this build is that speed finishes just a bit after the hellions leave the terran base), This is wrong. Hatch pool gas never has speed before 12 rax 13 gas hellions leave, unless your opponent is incompetent or they're doing a non-reactor hellion build.
You're right. My bad (it's late here and I'm tired). It does, however, finish around when they get to your base on a large map/after they poke and prod a few times on smaller maps. Fast enough to allow you to defend w.o losing many drones/units
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On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)"
replays against diamond and low masters players are meaningless, the reason they are at that mmr is because of holes in macro or decision making, usually both. burrow move to close on tanks is worthless if the terran pays any attention as you can see the damn things moving and get 2 tank volleys off before the roaches can even attack. you will get utterly picked apart by a terran who can handle dropping more than 1 place at once, at proper tank placement and sim city leaves you unable to attack him cost effectively ever. forcing scans is good early, but it becomes less of a macro hit when the terran hits 3 base. a decent terran would also just quickly add a raven. i reiterate the fact that marauders arent even needed against that comp, but can surely be added in to destroy your army even easier. the terran can also freely add in banshees once he realizes what you are doing, forcing spores everywhere and forcing you to infestor or muta in a situation where you have been wasting gas on a bad unit. the only hope you have with this comp is to catch a bad terran unseiged or to harass relentlessly with drops and nydus', but the proper terran way to handle this is to turret ring and sensor tower, as if he were playing mech vs bio in tvt. roaches do well against tanks in low number it is true, but mass tank marine will utterly stomp your 200 food army.
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You have to be careful when you go early roaches vs Hellions. It's best to spine up and only make a RW when you have scouted that he is going BFHs, otherwise stick to zerglings. Reason being roaches die very fast to marine/siege tank compositions and cost too much to make in early game.
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A BO that helped me a ton with ZvT was to do your standard 15 hatch opener, but follow up with a Roach Warren on 24, and save up for 6-8 Roaches when it pops.
You'll notice if you've been watching GSL that this is what a lot of Zergs have been doing lately, and it works well vs any opener. As long as you hold off 2 rax as you normally would (drone/ling micro), follow up with this Roach pressure.
The Roaches force the Terran to reveal his tech path and vs a lot of builds, you outright win because your Roaches are guaranteed to do so much damage. It is strongest vs any kind of Hellion play and I might go so far as to say it is the 'counter' build to Reactor Hellion openers. Don't hesitate to be aggressive with your Roaches. Now that I have some experience as Terran I can tell you many Zergs underestimate how hard it is for a Terran to hold off 8 Roaches that early without taking critical damage if they're doing any remotely greedy play.
However, vs standard 2 Rax follow ups like Marine/Tank pushes and such, you have time to tech to Mutas and can keep the Terran in his base, and those Roaches come in handy to soak up tank hits for your lings when the push arrives. Just don't make any more than the initial 6-8 without a good reason to do so.
tl;dr it's 'safe' because it forces your opponent to reveal his tech path, but can also totally punish greedy play. This is why I like pressure-based builds.
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i used to win literally every zvt... in diamond i hadnt lost a zvt in over a month...~250 games. Now, i lose almost every one to some bullshit hellion timing wether it be hellion marine, hellion thor or anything. I think terrans are just getting better
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watched replay, all I have 2 say is said, and better (high plat only), but tks 4 the thread cuz i can't win a ZvT 2 save my life so I'm stealing all the advice they're giving u!
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On September 19 2011 08:55 SoBeDragon wrote:
I'm high diamond, but I think spreading your creep like a boss will help. The tank/marine follow up timing push can be handled a bit better if you engage on creep. Also, catching the tanks out of siege is important, and cutting off reinforcements will help. If you spread your creep far enough, the timing push will be a bit slower, and you can usually get 1 or 2 more injects in before he gets to your base. Not sure if that helps, but, there's my $0.02.
This ^^
Im a diamond Terran and I'm uncomfortable when;
I move out with my tanks without having map control.
Zerg starts to get high numbers of mutas.
Creep spread is good.
Im extremely comfortable when:
I got good tank position, close to Zerg base.
If i were playing zerg I would definitely prefer speedlings/blings and eventually muta and try to catch the terran out of position all the way from his base to my own, make him siege/unsiege til he makes a mistake and roll him. I'd try to have somewhat of army just to prevent the terran from marching across the map cuz i've been droning the whole time.
Hope it helps.
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On September 19 2011 20:35 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)" replays against diamond and low masters players are meaningless, the reason they are at that mmr is because of holes in macro or decision making, usually both. burrow move to close on tanks is worthless if the terran pays any attention as you can see the damn things moving and get 2 tank volleys off before the roaches can even attack. you will get utterly picked apart by a terran who can handle dropping more than 1 place at once, at proper tank placement and sim city leaves you unable to attack him cost effectively ever. forcing scans is good early, but it becomes less of a macro hit when the terran hits 3 base. a decent terran would also just quickly add a raven. i reiterate the fact that marauders arent even needed against that comp, but can surely be added in to destroy your army even easier. the terran can also freely add in banshees once he realizes what you are doing, forcing spores everywhere and forcing you to infestor or muta in a situation where you have been wasting gas on a bad unit. the only hope you have with this comp is to catch a bad terran unseiged or to harass relentlessly with drops and nydus', but the proper terran way to handle this is to turret ring and sensor tower, as if he were playing mech vs bio in tvt. roaches do well against tanks in low number it is true, but mass tank marine will utterly stomp your 200 food army.
I like your elitism.
I'm sitting here tonight watching plays from people like LiquidSheth, Korean Zergs, and Russian/EU zerg vs T/P to see how they play, when they make decisions, how they go about it...
... And I'm seeing pretty much the same amount of effort, thought, and work put into the game as people in diamond/master on NA. I seem to recall you on the bnet forums, and you weren't exactly wowing us over there with accurate insights either.
These replays of Teamed people, of high level Koreans, of EU players, all look just like the games I play on a daily basis. The zerg third at 9, the huge drone lead, the harassment and shutting down of Terran expos (since T is invulnerable to an actual kill attack from zerg, that doesn't bane bust or coin flip a 7rr win, until mid/late game), etc etc.
Their timings are just the same as people in diamond/master. Their macro is just the same. Seriously. people I play against macro so well, they would be indistinguishable from these replays I'm watching.
I really don't know how you guys are maintaining that there's some great divide. I see masters with 1:19 win ratios. I beat top 8 masters who have about 83% rate. yet some diamonds will be so good or all in that it just beats me.
I think the honest facts are that the skill gap between all players above platinum are getting very very narrow. OR else how could I be seeing similar play and ability from high level players in "just diamond/master" players.
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EPT
