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Masters zerg. Title pretty much sums it up. The past few weeks I've won a small ammount of TvZ's, and the wins generally are because of some sort of all in. Terran bunker rushes, I defend with lings then lose to hellion follow up. Terran opens hellion and I defend with Roaches, then follows up with a tank timing in which I can't stop because I've spent all my early gas on Roaches rather than tech for Mutas. I can't expand, I can't pressure, I literally fucking blow in every aspect of TvZ as of late.
WHAT can I do to change this??? I know exactly why I'm losing each game, and I just can't seem to correct anything. I get fucking controlled and picked apart and I can't do anything but play their game or I just end up losing quicker rather than later. Should I get late gas and just drone to hell and drop 1947514975981745y6 Spinecrawlers? Should I all in every game?
I realize this looks like more of a vent than help thread, but I would absolutely love if anyone has had a similiar issue and found a way to make TvZ's less painful.
Finding replay(s) to add..
*Edit* Bumping the link from a few posts down
http://www.mediafire.com/?92q7wd1o2sq0w8a
Sorry for the bit of BM at the start, I had played the same opponent a game before, and he really took pride in trying to humiliate me.
**Edit** While I'll take any help/criticism gladly, I just want to point out that my biggest issue is the transition into mid game. I can hold off early harass well, and if I can get to mid game I'm fine as well. I don't exactly need help in either the early or late game aspects of ZvT. Meta game is what kills me, as seeing a tech lab on a Factory could be either Blue Flame OR Siege (I've actually re-watched games where Terran's have revealed a Hellion coming out, but were actually researching Siege. It just completely catches me off guard).
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infester good unit.
User was warned for this post
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I have found that speedling opening is way better than early hatch, espsecially if ur drone micro is not spectacular or anything. This combine with throwing down a relatively early macro hatch touching the bottom of the ramp to ur natural (to close the gap between the natural hatch and ramp) + a crawler between the two is extremely effective in fending off hellions with just lings, (if u see more than 4 or anticipate more than 4, throw down 2 more crawlers. During this a fast +1 melee is very helpful and with 3 hatch, u can hold off 3 tank pushes really easily with just +1 lings (plus fast evo allows for panic spores if they aint doing that). But waitin on replays
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Switch to terran for a bit. I found after playing TvZ for a while, my ZvT got a lot better. Or at least I know what to do and how to play it now.
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Without a replay I'm just guessing but perhaps you aren't using speed banelings and good creep spread effectively? Those tank pushes terran do are meant to kill muta users. If you're going roaches and still losing to early tank pushes something is up. If its later tank pushes that you are having trouble with then there are many different options to deal with that. But it would be best to discuss that over a replay.
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Now that's funny. I'm high diamond (worse than you obviously), and i didn't win a single ZvT in my last 15 ZvT or so... I can't really understand why, I feel like i don't understand the match up anymore...Have all terrans improved recently :D ?
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Sorry for the wait, here's one replay in particular that I lose quite horribly..
http://www.mediafire.com/?92q7wd1o2sq0w8a
Sorry for the bit of BM at the start, I had played the same opponent a game before, and he really took pride in trying to humiliate me. Anyways, in this particular game I tried to get Mutas as fast as I could over tech (which ended up going pretty badly) as the previous game the guy really utilized drop harass. @Maniac, I completely agree with you about my creep spread. It's been more than lackluster as of late..and maybe I should have gotten less Muta's and more Banelings with speed.
I think another issue of mine is I gauge each game based on my last opponent. A really bad habbit I've had since I started playing Starcraft, as I prepare for one particular build/counter, but instead get another. Scouting was a huge issue of mine on this map as well, and I really need to work on it more as well. But yea..there's the replay..feel free to pick me apart, I'll take any criticism that comes my way.
**Link is bad..trying to update it again T.T
***New link
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@Lasbike, I know exactly what you mean. TvZ used to honestly be my favored matchup as once I deflect harass I can really macro up a storm. But it just feels like I..forgot how to play TvZ? I know that sounds weird and isn't the case, but I just don't think I'm evolving my play. I need more Inftestor play, but I generally mix them in late game with Ultras. Mid game is just a pain in the ass for me right now, and I just can't seem to wrap my head around what I need to do differently. Scouting is huge, so is creep spread, but it still feels like I'm missing something more..
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im high diamond as well and i feel exactly the same, i did like zvt alot a while ago but now...one time i dont build roaches --> hellions kill me, then i build roaches but later mutas and drop harass kills me, then i try some early soines and fast muta and get killed by an early tank marnie push. sometimes i know that better creep spread or scouting would have helped but sometimes i have no clue what to do better, like the one time i got a random opponent and went 14gas-14pool, because thats what i do vs random he was terran and did a 1 rax fe..his expansion was earlier than mine and altough i felt i was playing well i lost and when i asked him what my mistakes were he said it was a bo loss..thats kinda sad, but thats just one game, ilose alot with 15 hatch as well, i still find it hard to defend very all-inish 2 rax plays with 3 or 4 scvs..  hoping for help
the funny thing is...while my zvt got a lot worse my zvp got alot better at the same time, before zvp was by far my worst match ups and i was winning only with all-ins but not that i fixed it zvt is the same...im trying banelingbusts and early roach attacks .. :/
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Everyone just take a deep breath and remember, the metagame is the only thing distrupting you right now. How did you get to Masters? What strategies did you have to fend off along the way?
Picture this. People were using hellions over a year ago with effectiveness, but people found a way to combat them. They've returned, in force, and people are once again being forced to combat them. Marine/tank pushes? Yes they're hard! But your opponent wouldnt be where they are if they couldnt execute it at least relatively well. What are your options? What mechanics are you missing? How did people hold the marine/tank push 6 months ago? How did they fend it off in meta-close positions?
Good luck. From what I remember, ling+speedbanes was the most popular marine/tank holdoff when it first became really really good. Creep spread obvs incredibly important, as well as the initial engagement + surround. If your spread sucks right now, grab a 3rd queen and spread a tumor with it every time you inject with your other 2.
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I'm high diamond, but I think spreading your creep like a boss will help. The tank/marine follow up timing push can be handled a bit better if you engage on creep. Also, catching the tanks out of siege is important, and cutting off reinforcements will help. If you spread your creep far enough, the timing push will be a bit slower, and you can usually get 1 or 2 more injects in before he gets to your base. Not sure if that helps, but, there's my $0.02.
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You have to hold off helion harass without roaches. It can be difficult but you just have to position your buildings and your units well, if you do that, you'll be pretty far ahead.
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watch some DRG vods imo. He says he fears no terran. He must be doing something right.
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Why exactly should this be closed? I followed every guideline, with the exception of adding [H] in the title. I've been watching VODs, as well as spending time on other forums so I haven't responded to this in about an hour or so.
Anyways, @cmizzles I know what you mean with holding hellion harass with Roaches, but it almost seems like when I do my T opponent can just easily back off and not harass, which in turn sets ME back. @Jubio Looking for some DRG vods as we speak lol, I'm really trying to incorperate a Stephano-esque b/o of upgraded lings/blinds/ and eventually, ultras/blords.
I really don't have a good ZvT saved with the exception of that horrible game I have posted up there. Will be playing a lot of games tonight and if I happen to get a game that will really compliment any of my issues I'll edit it in.
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Diamond zerg. I was about to post the exact same thing, so wow, good thing you did before me. I die to basically everything terran does. 2 racks = death. BFH elevator drops = death. Cloacked banshees = death. Fast 3 tank push = death. Turtle mech = death.
ZvP it's the opposite, I basically win 95% of my games. So what, are terran players that much better? I feel they have so much potential early game that you have to account for and to hold all the different types of assaults you have to be SO spot on with everything.... it's so frustrating I'm barely even playing the game these days.
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On September 19 2011 07:53 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Masters zerg. Title pretty much sums it up. The past few weeks I've won a small ammount of TvZ's, and the wins generally are because of some sort of all in. Terran bunker rushes, I defend with lings then lose to hellion follow up. Terran opens hellion and I defend with Roaches, then follows up with a tank timing in which I can't stop because I've spent all my early gas on Roaches rather than tech for Mutas. I can't expand, I can't pressure, I literally fucking blow in every aspect of TvZ as of late.
WHAT can I do to change this??? I know exactly why I'm losing each game, and I just can't seem to correct anything. I get fucking controlled and picked apart and I can't do anything but play their game or I just end up losing quicker rather than later. Should I get late gas and just drone to hell and drop 1947514975981745y6 Spinecrawlers? Should I all in every game?
I realize this looks like more of a vent than help thread, but I would absolutely love if anyone has had a similiar issue and found a way to make TvZ's less painful.
Finding replay(s) to add..
This sounds like how my TvZ used to be. Until the sever merge and virtually all my games being TvZ which forced it into my best matchup.
I play T. From the Terran pov I can say most of my games I open reactor hellions FE to deny creep into a tank-shield-stim timing push and most of my wins come from Zerg overreacting to my hellions and bad engagements from them. They don't try to surround, they waste lings, they counter-attack into a wall of depots, TL;DR lots of bad decision making.
If I played Zerg I would open 15 hatch and go Muta every fucking ZvT. Infestors make me a happy turtle  .
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On September 19 2011 09:24 Frumpysnoo wrote:
Why exactly should this be closed? I followed every guideline, with the exception of adding [H] in the title. I've been watching VODs, as well as spending time on other forums so I haven't responded to this in about an hour or so.
Anyways, @cmizzles I know what you mean with holding hellion harass with Roaches, but it almost seems like when I do my T opponent can just easily back off and not harass, which in turn sets ME back. @Jubio Looking for some DRG vods as we speak lol, I'm really trying to incorperate a Stephano-esque b/o of upgraded lings/blinds/ and eventually, ultras/blords.
I really don't have a good ZvT saved with the exception of that horrible game I have posted up there. Will be playing a lot of games tonight and if I happen to get a game that will really compliment any of my issues I'll edit it in.
Please refer to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266839#14
For those of you posting threads:[list]
[*]If you don't properly tag your thread, your thread will be CLOSED.
Edit, apologies I quoted only one of the two parts, the other part says no replay = ban.
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@Alpino That sounds a lot like my TvZ's haha. In the particular video I linked I did indeed open 15 hatch with early Muta's in mind, but ended up being forced into a handful of Roaches to deflect Hellions. Once I get the ball rolling [so to speak] and get a reasonable ammount of Muta's out I can control the game from there on and for the most part win. It's just a real pain right now trying to get into the mid-game with some speed.
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The main problem is probably your opening. Look at some LiquidRet and Idra replays ZvT, as they both have very standard ZvTs.
The safest way to open currently is with a fast lair. 15 Hatch 16 Pool 17 Gas. First 100 gas Ling speed, you can now either take no drones off gas or take 1-2. I prefer taking 1 drone of gas, put it back when lair starts. Your goal is quick Muta or quick banelings speed, depending on scouting info. Because your lair is so quick, you dont need both queens constantly spitting larva, you can start 2 creep tumors early.
Get a macro hatch when you can afford it after Spire and get a 3rd queen quickly (Key queen here).
With the above goal in mind here are some responses to common openings:
Reactor Hellion Expand: 3 Queen 1-2 Spine Crawler defense with a couple lings. Bring down your main queen at first until 3rd queen pops. Count how many hellions Terran makes and react with roaches if nessesary. If you repel the reactor-hellion poke, the Marine-Tank follow up is easy, you should have muta in time. Remember 8 Muta + Baneling Speed is >>> than 11 Muta no baneling speed.
Marine-Blue-Flame hellion-Drop after Expo(Slayers Build): The trick here is to use the tumor that connected your main to your natural to spread creep around the edges of your main. Any prime elevator spots should be creeped up. This allows your 3 queens to attack any medivacs attempting to elevator. If you stop the elevator the attack is much easier to defend until Mutas arrive.
Other than those two openings, goal of fast Mutas, Lots of creep spread, early 3rd queen should set you up for the Mid-Game.
ZvT is a battle of Mechanics. Can your Muta Harass + Macro keep up with Terran Pushes and drops.
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@Kajarn Thanks for the input man, really some insightful tips. I always have a plan such as this, but can never quite execute it for either macro's sake or overreacting to pressure. I don't use macro hatches quite often, and maybe it's another one of my downfalls. And yea, I completely agree with "8 Muta + Baneling Speed is >>> than 11 Muta no baneling sp"
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You're making a lot of small mistakes and its just adding up to a loss.
Here's some things you can do better.
Creep spread. Put tumors down earlier. Creep spread should start at like 3 or 4 minutes not 9 minutes.
Don't make so many roaches if you aren't going to attack. 3 or 4 is more then enough to defend against a lot of hellions. You even had a spine crawler up which was overkill on defense.
Keep control of the watch towers if you have roaches vs hellions. There's no reason not to have them. You had no map vision and you were building drones, taking a third and making a spire when he was moving out to attack.
Get zergling speed much sooner. No brainer. Speedlings kill un-upgraded marines and tanks much faster then roaches do.
Get gases up slightly sooner.
Put an overlord behind his expansion so you can check when he expands, how many gases he takes and how many scv's he makes.
All of this should have added up to you crushing that tiny little tank push the moment he steps onto creep. After that you could have expanded and gone mutas safely and probably won or at least done much better.
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LOL, hmm I think people need to calm down and stop bashing each other in this site.
Also with regards to the title, TvZ is what the matchup is called from the terran's perspective, since your a zerg, you need to call it ZvT.
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On September 19 2011 12:33 Theeakoz wrote:LOL, hmm I think people need to calm down and stop bashing each other in this site. Also with regards to the title, TvZ is what the matchup is called from the terran's perspective, since your a zerg, you need to call it ZvT.
Definitely listen to this guy. It makes the thread much more understandable.
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I am a high plat zerg (should make to diamond this week) and I feel exactly the same.
There are some maps where once you scouted the factory with reactor, it would be too late to build the roache warren and the 3rd queen (not a big fan of super early third queen) and at least ten drones will be roasted. In some maps, it is easier to defend because of chock points
but I find the worst thing about them is that they deny creep tumors really well, it is much harder to deal with the upcoming marine tank push when there is not enough creep.
I do think that you can try to do a roache, ling baneling muta style which I have seen from fruitdealer and losira in a few games.
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@Maniac Thanks for the criticism, deffinately taking all things you stated into account. That game went as bad as it possibly could have, and I totally agree with building way too much defense early on.
So what I've taken from all this is:
1) CREEP CREEP CREEEEEEEEEEP
2) Check gasses for a tell-tale on tech
3) Upgrades > A few more Mutalisks
4) Macro hatch a bit before the 3rd or to compliment it
I'm going to ladder tonight with all things considered and try to put into effect all said things. Again, I've been having very off games against Terran but I think I just need to get out of this bad habbit/slump that I've sort of fallen in to. My ZvZ is undoubtedly fine, and my PvZ is just as if not better. Once I get through this ZvT phase..I think I'll be good to progress farther down the ladder.
@Theeakoz Aghhh, yea that makes sense.. I really should have done some digging on the proper format to a thread in the Strategy forum before posting.
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You don't really need to make roach in reaction to hellion, and can almost always handle it with lings. 2 spines blocking off the two sides of your hatchery and a queen should keep them out, then keep a pack of lings at the top of your ramp and if they try to make the mad dash around one side of the hatch, or up into the main, use the lings to block in range of the spines.
That game specifically, I don't feel you had a good plan going into it. You hardly droned up, trying to rush as fast as possible to spire, and on top of that got quite a few pretty unnecessary roaches, further delaying your tech. The roaches kept you super turtely, and without ling speed you had no map presence, meaning terran can just waltz across the map, siege up in the perfect position he wants, and then get maximum efficiency out of his few units.
I would merely suggest to try and avoid roach, get a solid defense up with lings and spines, and if you still feel scared, you can take your third as a macro hatch in your main, get your spire out behind around 55 drones and then use mutas to retake map control and safely take your third base. I used to be having a lot of trouble with ZvT until I worked some things out with a pretty high level terran, and am now winning close to 70% of them at mid masters. A few other things he emphasized were never letting money climb up, which I always used to do when playing muta ling bling, as I would wait for the big battle and then try and remax on infestors and broods, and to try and hit a max as quickly as possible, then use that max to deny bases and scouting with speedlings and mutas running everywhere, while also mass expanding, so maybe that will help you too.
ALSO, its ZvT if you play Zerg, TvZ if you play Terran, lol. Makes things hard to follow.
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I actually prefer it if Zerg responds roaches to hellion pressure because it allows me to do a lot of medivac harass as I do a slow tank push.
However, the answer is not simply "Go mass speedlings to stop the hellion harass" because doing so will get you killed to blueflame.
However, here's the basic gist of it.
If the terran transitions into a marine tank timing push--defending with speedlings allows you to get to lair tech in order to stop the tank push.
If terran transitions into blueflame--defending with roaches allows you to actually stop the blueflame follow up.
The problem? If you defend one and terran is doing the other, you lose.
Scout better doesn't feel like good advice but I feel that it's the best you can do
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TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
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2 rax is all micro and patience. there are thousands of replays out there so ill let u figure out how to stop that, not to mention it will be going out of style with the patch. ive found a lot of diamond zergs go roach if they even see a helion...this is a mistake. standard rax first 2 marine into reactor helion is generally an expo opening these days that can punish the zerg for making too many lings/getting speed late. 1-2 well placed spines(depending on the map) and proper queen control should tide you over till speed. remember to poke the natural after u see helions to look for the cc, and poke the ramp to see what u can. this is the time to sac ur ovie. i dont recommend roaches unless he is going 2 fact helion, unless you are using a tight roach timing. 1-3 roaches can be ok to shut down the helions for good, but you are slowing yourself down needlessly. aside from some odd mech timings where you may not have the roaches you need, there shouldnt be any 2 base attacks that can kill you unless you got behind early.
not sure why you are having trouble mid game, thats the time for zerg to shine in this matchup. muta is still the best option these days, and proper muta harass is where you build your advantage. one thing i would recommend doing is have your bane nest by the time lair finishes, and get baneling speed after you start your spire. you will have a muta or 2 less than you would, but you will have time to make lings and morph them to kill any timing. until a lot of turrets or thors are out, your mutas are a pin that allow you to build your late game economy while harassing. dont lose mutas needlessly, but dont be afraid to attack a mineral line with 2 turrets and no marines or a few isolated marines. your mutas make terran drops risky and wasteful in general at this time, but many will still try, so make sure you have a comprehensive overlord spread at this stage. if he is taking his third and has a low tank count, feel free to punish hard with ling/bane. more likely you are going to get your third droned and fourth started while adding infestation pit before he slowly establishes his 3rd safely, and the game transitions into the start of the late game.
infestors, upgrades, and tech should be prioritized if he has successfully taken a third and has a solid defense. one thing not nearly enough zergs do is to add multiple spines and even a spore to their expos to protect from drops. you are going to have an abundance of minerals once you hit 4+ bases, and a small investment in static defense can shut down one of the most powerful tools in the terran late game arsenal. he can still kill your spines 1 by 1 if he controls properly, but you will have plenty of time to respond. a key point is here is that even if you retained mutas, he WILL begin to drop at this stage. you should have burrowed lings at his remaining expos by now, and be ready to punish his 4th. 3 base terran can be scary, but his only hope to defeat hive at this point is to rush ghosts and vikings, and these are both slow to replenish on 3 base. if you have a much greater economy or are ahead in army, broods are the seige unit that let you finish him off. if your harass went well and your economy stayed relatively powerful, you should hit a powerful infestor brood timing that will be tough for him to stop. it is true that ghost/viking can beat this, but you will generally hit before he has a significant number of either. make sure to keep some corruptors to protect your broods. if its 5 or more bases to 3, leaning on him with this composition and/or ultras will wear him out soon. if the terran gets a solid 4 bases running, you should have a sense of urgency as his composition properly controlled will starve you out with cost effectiveness if it gets to anything resembling split map
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On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran.
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On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran.
I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway.
burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent.
Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine.
if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable.
I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army.
I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long.
some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this:
"Zerg is bullshit"
"I didnt know roaches were so good"
"... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)"
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On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)"
How do you stop multiprong drops coupled with mass expanding vs terran? I usually love it when Zerg goes heavy roaches because it allows me to drop him a lot while turtling off of 3 bases and slowly getting a 4th and 5th until I not only have more bases than Zerg but I eventually have so many barracks that I just outmacro roach production.
I'm curious just so I can be better prepared for when I start getting matched up against better players thanks
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On September 19 2011 14:15 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)" How do you stop multiprong drops coupled with mass expanding vs terran? I usually love it when Zerg goes heavy roaches because it allows me to drop him a lot while turtling off of 3 bases and slowly getting a 4th and 5th until I not only have more bases than Zerg but I eventually have so many barracks that I just outmacro roach production. I'm curious just so I can be better prepared for when I start getting matched up against better players thanks
save one base, sack another, and still be ahead in eco compared to the terran. Last time I played the T where I massed roaches up to 200, I got 6 bases by about 20 minutes, including the gold, on Xelnaga Cavern.
GL making a drop meaningful under those conditions.
the moment I spot a drop I usually create 6-8 drones instantly and send ti to a a low or no saturation base, and just keep making roaches. Rebuild once the base is destroyed, while counterattacking.
Under these conditions it is my hope that they keep making tanks and marines.
I usually end up stutter stepping against their army while its on the move, and burrowing once I've done enough damage and a lot of roaches are at half health, this causes a scan, where I unburrow and finish off the enemy, and I've also degraded his economy via the scan.
if they do this long enough trading so badly, by the time any of them try using marauders, my macro allows me to remax lings so quickly their attempts are pointless.
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On September 19 2011 13:28 lorkac wrote:I actually prefer it if Zerg responds roaches to hellion pressure because it allows me to do a lot of medivac harass as I do a slow tank push. However, the answer is not simply "Go mass speedlings to stop the hellion harass" because doing so will get you killed to blueflame. However, here's the basic gist of it. If the terran transitions into a marine tank timing push--defending with speedlings allows you to get to lair tech in order to stop the tank push. If terran transitions into blueflame--defending with roaches allows you to actually stop the blueflame follow up. The problem? If you defend one and terran is doing the other, you lose. Scout better doesn't feel like good advice but I feel that it's the best you can do This is a pretty damn tough scouting problem. I mean, you HAVE to spot the actual units coming out of the factory, as either way it's going to be a factory + tech lab with research going. I feel like you need to commit to roaches much earlier if you're going to actually stop blue flame harrass.
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On September 19 2011 10:08 Frumpysnoo wrote:
@Kajarn Thanks for the input man, really some insightful tips. I always have a plan such as this, but can never quite execute it for either macro's sake or overreacting to pressure. I don't use macro hatches quite often, and maybe it's another one of my downfalls. And yea, I completely agree with "8 Muta + Baneling Speed is >>> than 11 Muta no baneling sp"
I remember something Idra said about macro hatch on his stream.
In his standard game, so 15 hatch>speedlings>banelings>mutas>3ed
He would basically make a macro hatch before his mutas come out IF he was allowed to saturate both of his bases and T didn't do any significant dmg to him. And then normally expand to 3ed with his mutas.
P.S I have the same problem with ZvP 
Just can't wrap my head around the MU :/
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High masters zerg here, just a quick tip. You can make your overlord after you get your gas and another drone (all after spawning pool). Will give you just a bit more economy. Also, if you make your pool at 16, it's more economical and the queens come out at the same time so it's lined up for injects. I don't like how you laid down one spinecrawler early (you could have waited till around 32-33 and it would have been fine). Your 2nd queen was also late, so your first queen had to inject, which should have been a creep tumor. Because your 2nd queen was late, if he had been in close pos, he would have been able to run the hellions up your ramp too, so next time you'll probably want to make the 2nd queen as soon as your expo finishes.
Personally, I don't like the roach warren as a response to hellions because if you think about it, 1 roach warren+2-3 roaches (you made 7), and a spine is already 4-5 drones and ~300-400 minerals/gas gone that you could have used for teching up or making more drones. I find it much more efficient to block the ramp w. my nat queen, make 2 spine crawlers, and around 3-4 sets of lings. This way, you are free to use gas for lair and teching up, instead of roaches which have almost no use later on. Making 7 roaches was quite a bit for just a few hellions. 2-3 would have been enough to scare him away. Because you made 7 roaches instead of either 2-3 roaches, or lings+spines, you lost a LOT of minerals that could have gone into drones.
I also prefer to make a baneling nest before spire, because sometimes with spire, you're stuck in an uncomfortable situation where you have mutas and he's pushing, but nothing to deal w. marines aside from lings, which kinda just die to rines+tanks. It'll also allow you to get baneling speed faster, which is essential to defeating 2 base pushes from the terran.
Overall, I think your play was decent, but you sacrificed too much early economy, and you didn't get your baneling nest up fast enough. If you really want to get mutas quickly, here's my general build order (this has worked for me very well even in high masters, and i can say that zvt is my strongest mu by far, around 80-90% w/l ratio).
13 scout, 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas@100 min, 17 overlord, when pool finishes, queen at main and nat hatch, 2 sets of lings, get lings speed and take drones off gas, 1 ling@watchtower, rest go to scout, 31 (or @25drones) put 3 back on gas, make 3-4 lings+spines if he's going hellion expo (the cool thing about this build is that speed finishes just a bit after the hellions leave the terran base), @100 gas lair, get 2 more gas geysers, @50 gas, go baneling nest, then when lair is finished, spire, centrifugal hooks, when spire is finished, +1 for mutas/5-6 mutas. You should be droning accordingly all this time (depending on what you scuot), and get your 3rd AFTER mutas pop. With the gas, keep on going mutas, until he pushes. You never want to make too many banelings, which take away from ur muta count until later in the game. If you get your 3rd before the mutas pop, if he pushes you'll be screwed because you'll have low economy, low army (imagine some lings+2 blings+8mutas v rine/tank/medivac). The 3rd might seem late, but because you're harrassing, he'll be afraid to move out, and you'll be able to get a 4th relatively quicly and drone up a lot. If you need more help, pm me and I'll give you my b.net id so we can talk on bnet.
good luck :D
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How do you scout the follow-up? If he shots your scouting OL before you see anything you are not able to scout until you get lair, so how can I know if I need Roach Warren against BFH or if I should stay slings to get faster lair.
When you scout the ramp you see reactored factory that just made hellions. If he doesnt change addon it means BFH? What is the time he should change it latest?
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2 spines and passive baneling and 3x supply lair... dongraegu/idra.
But you're probably just bad at the moment. keep grinding games and you'll solve it.
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On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote:
I don't like how you laid down one spinecrawler early (you could have waited till around 32-33 and it would have been fine).
Incomplete advice. This dies to gas first reactor hellion.
On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote:
13 scout, 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas@100 min, 17 overlord, when pool finishes, queen at main and nat hatch, 2 sets of lings, get lings speed and take drones off gas, 1 ling@watchtower, rest go to scout, 31 (or @25drones) put 3 back on gas, make 3-4 lings+spines if he's going hellion expo (the cool thing about this build is that speed finishes just a bit after the hellions leave the terran base),
This is wrong. Hatch pool gas never has speed before 12 rax 13 gas hellions leave, unless your opponent is incompetent or they're doing a non-reactor hellion build.
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On September 19 2011 15:01 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:28 lorkac wrote:I actually prefer it if Zerg responds roaches to hellion pressure because it allows me to do a lot of medivac harass as I do a slow tank push. However, the answer is not simply "Go mass speedlings to stop the hellion harass" because doing so will get you killed to blueflame. However, here's the basic gist of it. If the terran transitions into a marine tank timing push--defending with speedlings allows you to get to lair tech in order to stop the tank push. If terran transitions into blueflame--defending with roaches allows you to actually stop the blueflame follow up. The problem? If you defend one and terran is doing the other, you lose. Scout better doesn't feel like good advice but I feel that it's the best you can do This is a pretty damn tough scouting problem. I mean, you HAVE to spot the actual units coming out of the factory, as either way it's going to be a factory + tech lab with research going. I feel like you need to commit to roaches much earlier if you're going to actually stop blue flame harrass.
His claims are incorrect.
Roaches can stop a marine tank timing push, but it's not optimal.
Ling bane can stop blue flame just fine, but it's not optimal.
I play high masters korea and memorize progames of top zergs.
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On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)"
Your claims revolve around your MMR, but the amount of holes in a diamond or master player's game in NA is humongous.
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On September 19 2011 14:15 lorkac wrote:How do you stop multiprong drops coupled with mass expanding vs terran? I usually love it when Zerg goes heavy roaches because it allows me to drop him a lot while turtling off of 3 bases and slowly getting a 4th and 5th until I not only have more bases than Zerg but I eventually have so many barracks that I just outmacro roach production. I'm curious just so I can be better prepared for when I start getting matched up against better players thanks
There's a few things you can do to make it easier to deal with drops. Keep in mind you won't stop them. Only mutas can "stop" them. But you can see them coming and deal with them when they land. And put enough pressure on the terran that loading up multiple dropships worth of marines is extremely risky.
The most important thing to do is get overlord speed and spread your overlords everywhere. If don't see the drops coming you're gonna get completely owned. This also has the added benefit of making it more difficult for the terran to pick off overlords and supply block you.
Get banelings and baneling speed (at least start it researching) before he starts his drops. Roaches don't deal with drops well. Roaches deal damage slowly so its easy for the terran to escape. Banelings on the other hand do great. The terran can't be paying complete attention to all his drops at once. It will be extremely hard for him to out micro your banelings and comparably easy for you.
OMG get burrow! I think someone in this thread questioned using burrow? Ok, aside from the fact that you can heal your roaches, bait scans and plant baneling mines. You can save all of your drones from dying to a drop! Here's a secret. Terran are dropping mules as soon as they have the energy. Half the time they won't be able to scan when you burrow. They won't have the energy. And if they do you just made them use 300 minerals. Which will probably be about the cost of replacing the drones you lose. If you burrow them before the drop lands they may not even see it and think its an empty mineral line.
Right so you're now defending your bases with a minimal amount of units and effort but you still have a problem. You can't counter attack the terran because he's hiding behind 1 or 2 siege tanks and 1 or 2 bunkers. Even if he loses all his drops completely he's in no real danger because you don't have mutas.
So you get a nydus network. You already have overlord speed so you place overlords all over the edges of his base. He now has to commit to defending the entire perimeter of his base rather then just his natural. On some maps this will be absolutely impossible at this stage in the game. Combined with the fact that he's using a significant portion of his army to drop you he will be hard pressed to defend. It will get progressively worse for him the more spread out he becomes.
How you use this advantage is situational. Here's my favorite. I start a nydus in his main and que up another at his natural. If one goes up I send through everything I have. I burrow 2 or 3 roaches immediately (its unlikely he'll see this use them later to kill scv's if you have to evacuate). When he gets there if I can't beat his army I send everything back through. If the other worm came up I come out on that side. If neither goes up and I lured enough of his army into his main I attack his natural as it will be only lightly defended. If its to risky I just showed him he has to defend his perimeter now.
He now has to worry about a possible base trade if he moves out to soon and of course the fact that if he moves out to soon he could get completely mobbed by mass roach/ling/bane before he can siege his tanks. That gives you a lot of breathing room. You won't have to deal with him moving out early and setting up sieged tanks right in your face. You should expand immediately and preferably to a far away expansion that he's unlikely to scout. Set up a nydus there to get your queen/drones there quickly.
You can also spread creep in front of his base which is kinda funny. Assuming you have map control which you should. Nydus outside his natural beyond his vision range. Bring a queen through and plant a few creep tumors. Then send it back through. Now you can gank him as soon as he steps out of his base. He can't kite your banes if he doesn't clear this out which buys you extra time. Of course this is completely situational if you've already brought up a few nydus wyrms you probably don't want to over spend on them or you will end up getting behind.
It's a very fun style to play so GL HF.
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Since most terrans are going for hellion first openers how about getting fast roaches and putting some pressure on them while you expand? If they are opening hellions you'll likely be able to snipe some rines and SCVs while delaying their mining. It worked for DRG in a couple of his games against Thorizain although admittedly in one of them Thorizain was being super greedy.
I've been finding myself at lowly platinum level that terrans do seem to be getting better at stopping muta harass and putting more constant pressure on.
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On September 19 2011 16:08 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote:
I don't like how you laid down one spinecrawler early (you could have waited till around 32-33 and it would have been fine). Incomplete advice. This dies to gas first reactor hellion. Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 15:50 ragedaemon wrote:
13 scout, 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas@100 min, 17 overlord, when pool finishes, queen at main and nat hatch, 2 sets of lings, get lings speed and take drones off gas, 1 ling@watchtower, rest go to scout, 31 (or @25drones) put 3 back on gas, make 3-4 lings+spines if he's going hellion expo (the cool thing about this build is that speed finishes just a bit after the hellions leave the terran base), This is wrong. Hatch pool gas never has speed before 12 rax 13 gas hellions leave, unless your opponent is incompetent or they're doing a non-reactor hellion build.
You're right. My bad (it's late here and I'm tired). It does, however, finish around when they get to your base on a large map/after they poke and prod a few times on smaller maps. Fast enough to allow you to defend w.o losing many drones/units
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On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)"
replays against diamond and low masters players are meaningless, the reason they are at that mmr is because of holes in macro or decision making, usually both. burrow move to close on tanks is worthless if the terran pays any attention as you can see the damn things moving and get 2 tank volleys off before the roaches can even attack. you will get utterly picked apart by a terran who can handle dropping more than 1 place at once, at proper tank placement and sim city leaves you unable to attack him cost effectively ever. forcing scans is good early, but it becomes less of a macro hit when the terran hits 3 base. a decent terran would also just quickly add a raven. i reiterate the fact that marauders arent even needed against that comp, but can surely be added in to destroy your army even easier. the terran can also freely add in banshees once he realizes what you are doing, forcing spores everywhere and forcing you to infestor or muta in a situation where you have been wasting gas on a bad unit. the only hope you have with this comp is to catch a bad terran unseiged or to harass relentlessly with drops and nydus', but the proper terran way to handle this is to turret ring and sensor tower, as if he were playing mech vs bio in tvt. roaches do well against tanks in low number it is true, but mass tank marine will utterly stomp your 200 food army.
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You have to be careful when you go early roaches vs Hellions. It's best to spine up and only make a RW when you have scouted that he is going BFHs, otherwise stick to zerglings. Reason being roaches die very fast to marine/siege tank compositions and cost too much to make in early game.
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A BO that helped me a ton with ZvT was to do your standard 15 hatch opener, but follow up with a Roach Warren on 24, and save up for 6-8 Roaches when it pops.
You'll notice if you've been watching GSL that this is what a lot of Zergs have been doing lately, and it works well vs any opener. As long as you hold off 2 rax as you normally would (drone/ling micro), follow up with this Roach pressure.
The Roaches force the Terran to reveal his tech path and vs a lot of builds, you outright win because your Roaches are guaranteed to do so much damage. It is strongest vs any kind of Hellion play and I might go so far as to say it is the 'counter' build to Reactor Hellion openers. Don't hesitate to be aggressive with your Roaches. Now that I have some experience as Terran I can tell you many Zergs underestimate how hard it is for a Terran to hold off 8 Roaches that early without taking critical damage if they're doing any remotely greedy play.
However, vs standard 2 Rax follow ups like Marine/Tank pushes and such, you have time to tech to Mutas and can keep the Terran in his base, and those Roaches come in handy to soak up tank hits for your lings when the push arrives. Just don't make any more than the initial 6-8 without a good reason to do so.
tl;dr it's 'safe' because it forces your opponent to reveal his tech path, but can also totally punish greedy play. This is why I like pressure-based builds.
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i used to win literally every zvt... in diamond i hadnt lost a zvt in over a month...~250 games. Now, i lose almost every one to some bullshit hellion timing wether it be hellion marine, hellion thor or anything. I think terrans are just getting better
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watched replay, all I have 2 say is said, and better (high plat only), but tks 4 the thread cuz i can't win a ZvT 2 save my life so I'm stealing all the advice they're giving u!
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On September 19 2011 08:55 SoBeDragon wrote:
I'm high diamond, but I think spreading your creep like a boss will help. The tank/marine follow up timing push can be handled a bit better if you engage on creep. Also, catching the tanks out of siege is important, and cutting off reinforcements will help. If you spread your creep far enough, the timing push will be a bit slower, and you can usually get 1 or 2 more injects in before he gets to your base. Not sure if that helps, but, there's my $0.02.
This ^^
Im a diamond Terran and I'm uncomfortable when;
I move out with my tanks without having map control.
Zerg starts to get high numbers of mutas.
Creep spread is good.
Im extremely comfortable when:
I got good tank position, close to Zerg base.
If i were playing zerg I would definitely prefer speedlings/blings and eventually muta and try to catch the terran out of position all the way from his base to my own, make him siege/unsiege til he makes a mistake and roll him. I'd try to have somewhat of army just to prevent the terran from marching across the map cuz i've been droning the whole time.
Hope it helps.
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On September 19 2011 20:35 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 14:02 Truedot wrote:On September 19 2011 13:40 j0ker wrote:On September 19 2011 13:32 Truedot wrote:
TvZ used to be my worst. Now I just spam roaches and get another base every time i start to float above 500.
get burrowed move + speed + 1 up = dead terran marine/tank user. usually they're too locked into the mindset of just mass producing the same thing over and over, even though its suboptimal against (WELL MICRO) roaches.
if you're losing to a bunker rush into hellions, you need to make about 3 spines to destroy the bunker rush, with queens to tank for the spines as they set up, and then shift the spines to 1 behind base and nat and one at choke, hold position a queen on choke and they won't be able to get in your base. they'll probably run off and either do mass hellion with marine and maybe a tank, banshee, or marine/tank. you want to build up drones fast, get ling speed, a roach warren, and an evo by 6 if they don't attack, also while doing this you should float some minerals so theres an easy third base/macro hatch for you. this becomes important for outmassing Terran during an early push.
if its low on tank numbers, getting roach/sling and then stutter step roaches while you let your slin come from behind on a move, until your roaches completely surround the attack and then focus fire or a move them, as the sitaution dictates.
every time they go hellion rush, it means you should get that macro hatch or third baes that much sooner, maintaining all your drones on minerals until about 20-25 when you start pumping just 1 gas fto get tech. the fact they put scvs on gas means that they're low on minerals, so you can outmacro them to a degree.
if you have early natural, get 1 queen to inject and one to put down creep tumors until your money gets over 200 right after an inject. once its over 200 right after another inject, you can inject twice again, and not waste energy/larvae.
remember, if you cap your natural larva production, and cant spend all your larva, you wasted energy AND larva.
marine tank slaughters roach in medium numbers and becomes laughable late game with medivacs and marine upgrades. not to mention your 200/200 is going to get beat by a 200/200 marine tank push with maybe like 30 supply lost on his side. you cant "outmicro" a range 13 aoe seige unt that has a huge ball of stimmed marines protecting it. burrow is a complete waste against a race that can scan for detection. these type or roach plays should only be used against full mech terran. I have about 10 replays of me vs diamonds and master players that beg to differ. if you don't have a superior force of units until 200 time comes, you're a laughable zerg anyway. burrow is a waste of time... because... it doesn't cost them a MULE? Good info. using one ability to continuously degrade their economy is a waste of time. excellent. Also, roaches regenerate very quickly underground, did you know what? burrow move is designed to allow roaches to close distance safely, think of it like a submarine. if you're on the attack, being aggressive, and using a superior numerical force of roaches, while continuing to add bases behind your pushes and microing your units so that you preserve them as much as possible, and kill as many enemy units as possible. Terran marine/tank becomes laughable. I don't see how you have the ability to talk on the subject, considering I have been wildly successful using this vs other higher MMR players in the last few days, and your claim that it doesn't work proves you haven't played with roaches well enough to see their potential, or to realize that roaches make a fearful army. I've beaten marine tank terrans with JUST burrowed move mass roaches and micro while macroing up constantly behind the attacks, all game long. some sample comments from Terrans who get beaten by this: "Zerg is bullshit" "I didnt know roaches were so good" "... (they quit immediately in rage mode without a gg)" replays against diamond and low masters players are meaningless, the reason they are at that mmr is because of holes in macro or decision making, usually both. burrow move to close on tanks is worthless if the terran pays any attention as you can see the damn things moving and get 2 tank volleys off before the roaches can even attack. you will get utterly picked apart by a terran who can handle dropping more than 1 place at once, at proper tank placement and sim city leaves you unable to attack him cost effectively ever. forcing scans is good early, but it becomes less of a macro hit when the terran hits 3 base. a decent terran would also just quickly add a raven. i reiterate the fact that marauders arent even needed against that comp, but can surely be added in to destroy your army even easier. the terran can also freely add in banshees once he realizes what you are doing, forcing spores everywhere and forcing you to infestor or muta in a situation where you have been wasting gas on a bad unit. the only hope you have with this comp is to catch a bad terran unseiged or to harass relentlessly with drops and nydus', but the proper terran way to handle this is to turret ring and sensor tower, as if he were playing mech vs bio in tvt. roaches do well against tanks in low number it is true, but mass tank marine will utterly stomp your 200 food army.
I like your elitism.
I'm sitting here tonight watching plays from people like LiquidSheth, Korean Zergs, and Russian/EU zerg vs T/P to see how they play, when they make decisions, how they go about it...
... And I'm seeing pretty much the same amount of effort, thought, and work put into the game as people in diamond/master on NA. I seem to recall you on the bnet forums, and you weren't exactly wowing us over there with accurate insights either.
These replays of Teamed people, of high level Koreans, of EU players, all look just like the games I play on a daily basis. The zerg third at 9, the huge drone lead, the harassment and shutting down of Terran expos (since T is invulnerable to an actual kill attack from zerg, that doesn't bane bust or coin flip a 7rr win, until mid/late game), etc etc.
Their timings are just the same as people in diamond/master. Their macro is just the same. Seriously. people I play against macro so well, they would be indistinguishable from these replays I'm watching.
I really don't know how you guys are maintaining that there's some great divide. I see masters with 1:19 win ratios. I beat top 8 masters who have about 83% rate. yet some diamonds will be so good or all in that it just beats me.
I think the honest facts are that the skill gap between all players above platinum are getting very very narrow. OR else how could I be seeing similar play and ability from high level players in "just diamond/master" players.
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EPT
