For the longest time TvT has been one of my weakest matchups. I never really liked the play style involved with it(not many people do) In TvZ and TvP since the beta I've been using mass ghost even before the infestor craze. I just love the unit so much that I decided I wanted to make a strong build for TvT that involves that very unit. This is that build.
Things to note before going in
-It is viable against almost every terran opener out there. (if it was good against everything then this game wouldn't be fun now would it) -You must have a high APM and strong micro to use this build(Master league 750 and I still have trouble with it) -Must be able to understand what you see when you scout and react accordingly
This is not a build that a bronze level or plat level player could pick up and notice extreme success like I have. My win/loss ratio in TvT before I started using this build was about 45%. It currently is over 70% and this build is no where near refined yet.
The purpose of this build is to scout with reapers while harassing/containing with them(delaying tech structures and sniping scvs/mules) and then transitioning into a heavy ghost/marauder ball. Late game throw in a couple nukes and tanks and you have a very strong build throughout the entire game.
Now I'm not the best player out there. As far as I'm concerned I'm a pretty terrible player but most people would say the same about themselves. I'm currently rated 750 in my master league 125 wins 100 losses. My TvT win loss ratio is over 70% now because of this build. It has very few counters.
This build uses a quick 3 rax with 2 gas to pump out a quick amount of reapers to scout and then harass a worker line. With your first reaper you build you scout your opponent see what kind of tech path he is going, snipe workers building those tech paths, and then get out before you die if you can. You then send in another 4 reapers(keep these hidden from scouts/scans) and do as much damage to his worker line as possible. Reapers beat red flame hellions and marines in a 1v1 so keep this in mind.
You then transition into a heavy ghost marauder ball(Depending on if you see tanks or banshees you decide how many ghost you need) I've been using ghost since the beta so I've known for a very long time how strong snipe is. People are just now starting to realize how damn strong ghost are especially in the TvZ match up.
Depending on whether or not you scouted a quick expand build or a pressure build(aka bfh drops or cloak banshees) you decide to push. Normally in TvT people do pressure expands so once you hold against the banshees(A banshee beats a ghost in a 1v1 but you should have atleast 2 ghost by the time 1 banshee arrives...also emp > cloak) or BFH(marauders with concussive shell ftw!) so you wait to hold off that before pushing. If they guy is being cautious build 3 extra marauders and leave them home(normally people just leave if they scout ghost with the banshee) and push with a good force of 3-4 ghost and 7-10 marauders.
Normally I find that I can win with this first push because of how strong snipe + stimmed marauders are but if you don't you expand as you push(always do this no matter what) and get siege tanks and nukes for a contain.
10 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital and build a marine 17 gas When marine finishes get a tech lab When tech lab finishes build reaper Build 2 more rax and put tech labs on both of them First reaper should be finished by now go scout and harass with it Get stim and build 4 more reapers(would make 5 in total) Build Ghost academy and when reapers are done start pumping out marauders and ghost(if you scout a quick banshee get ghost academy quicker) When you push build a CC From there you just get factories for tanks and keep pumping out units for contain,
Sorry the build order ends after 17 gas supply wise I just normally build shit as I can afford it
So with the reapers you get full knowledge of what your opponent is up to. Even if he knows you are going reapers you should be able to slip 1-2 in to see whats going on. In a game like starcraft where people go builds that are meant to catch you off guard knowledge is key.
Bit of a joke with that but ghost still destroy shit. Ghost with snipe beat marines marauders SCVs reapers and other ghost. Sniping an SCV building a bunker HELL YEAH! Sniping SCVs repairing a tank HELL YEAH! EMP also takes off cloak from banshees and energy from medivacs and ravens. They also are pretty damn strong units and can beat most things in a 1v1.
3.This build is strong against almost every opener out there + Show Spoiler +
Like I've stated before the most standard openers in TvT right now are banshee expand and banshee expand and for reasons already stated this build stops those. However this build is good against fast expands, quick siege tanks, and heavy bio play. There is 1 weakness but it is still a good call in that matchup but I'll go into that later.
Just going to give you a quick way to respond and alter the build against what you scout. This won't be very in depth because you'll have to react in a way you feel comfortable. Banshee + Show Spoiler +
If you scout banshees then just get your ghost academy a few seconds quick than you normally would. Even if you don't though you should get out 2 ghost before you lose to many scvs. Also use the marine you built at the start to help hold off the banshees. If the guy has bad micro you can kill the banshee with just 1 ghost and 1 marine.
Fairly easy to beat because you have the 2 units that counter this pretty hard...ghost and marauders. Snipe marines and kill the tanks when they push and then move to their base and walk right in. If they are playing marine tank but a turtle style use your reapers to harass his mineral line while you push his front. Snipe any scvs that are repairing bunkers/tanks and then focus on sniping the rest of the marines. This is the easiest opener to beat.
Again the best part about this build is scouting and once you scout the bfh drop(fairly obvious to see) you just wait for the drop to come and smash it with your marauders with almost no scv losses. Most people follow up this build with an expand but either way after you hold push and leave a few rauders in your mineral line to hold a counter drop. You should be able to walk into his base at this point.
Its not the hellions its the banshees. You need 2 ghost per banshee and that just costs more than the banshees would. If you scout this expand get turrets and change you're game plan. I haven't found a good transition with ghost/marauder that can beat this yet.
If they get enough tanks before you push be very careful. Expand and try get 2 factories to match their tank number. Use nukes and tanks to try and contain on 2 bases
If you go late game you'll want to do your best to contain them on 2 bases. Get as many tanks and hellions that you can(hellions if they are going pure marine tank) and contain them with nukes and tanks. Doing ghost drops are fun for sniping scvs while using the hold fire command. Take control of the map and play a standard game from this point out. Using nukes and ghost of course ^_^
On September 04 2011 15:22 johanngrunt wrote: Just a few supplemental questions
1) How important are upgrades to this build? Do you get the armor upgrade, or the attack upgrade, or do you go 2 ebays. 2) What's a good time to get a starport for medivacs? 3) Does the army composition remain gas dependent or mineral dependent?
1. For the first push you can't afford any upgrades besides stim and concussive shell. After that I prefer to get only 1 engineering bay and just get upgrades one at a time. 2. All depends on what he is doing. If he is pumping out siege tanks like crazy you need a second factory to keep up with him so it is delayed a bit. Normally though around the 11-12 minute mark 3. Balances out
Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
This. You can Snipe all you want, but Marine production time is faster than getting energy for your Ghosts to kill then as well as faster than Reaper or Ghost production time. How are you going to deal with 5+ Barracks Marine off 2-3 bases? It's a possible transition if your build gets scouted.
I would say a Tank transition, but can you get enough in time?
Also, how would this work against the Korean Expand -> BFH spam -> Tank spam -> 3rd?
It pretty much nullifies your ability to push as if you leave 3 Marauders in your base, he just goes in with like 10-15 Hellions and if you push with your army, he sweeps in, kills your workers and comes back to defend.
I would say a wall-in would do well, but what if he just gets a Medivac and elevates?
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
This. You can Snipe all you want, but Marine production time is faster than getting energy for your Ghosts to kill then as well as faster than Reaper or Ghost production time. How are you going to deal with 5+ Barracks Marine off 2-3 bases? It's a possible transition if your build gets scouted.
I would say a Tank transition, but can you get enough in time?
Also, how would this work against the Korean Expand -> BFH spam -> Tank spam -> 3rd?
It pretty much nullifies your ability to push as if you leave 3 Marauders in your base, he just goes in with like 10-15 Hellions and if you push with your army, he sweeps in, kills your workers and comes back to defend.
I would say a wall-in would do well, but what if he just gets a Medivac and elevates?
Off of 2 - 3 bases did you even read the entire post? Once you are on multiple bases you don't sit just on marine ghost the entire time that you will have tanks/hellions as well as some air. Go read through how to react to certain builds and you'll learn all this.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
On September 04 2011 16:02 Pillage wrote: Wouldn't this build lose outright to mass, marine heavy bio? I realize ghosts are good against light units and that reapers do pretty well against them too, but your barracks production time is tied up extremely long building ghosts + reapers, so I would think you could just be run over by a big bio ball since you have 0 tanks. I'd like to see some reps where you lose with this, just so we can pin down its weaknesses.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing.
I'll dig up some of the replays and add them
he's talking about mid-late game scenarios. you can snipe all you want but ghosts simply don't scale like marines. most terrans don't open pure marines obviously but if they see you doing some marauder/ghost composition they will adapt.
it seems this build relies heavily on early game pressure and catching your opponent by surprise. in fact all the games in your video are short games. even if you transition to hellion/tank for mid-late game, you'll be behind having invested on reapers/ghosts if insufficient damage is dealt early game. honestly pure marine/tank or standard bio would beat this outright if they can defend the early pressure.
Like I've said you don't sit on pure ghost maruader then entire game and later game you don't have a lot of ghost 6-8 in a late game composition. The opener sets you up for a standard late game but with just ghost and nukes thrown in. You're talking like I'll have 20 ghost vs 100 marines. Also watch the replays the build is strong against all opens and does enough damage in most of them so that you can expand and turn it into a strong macro game.
You say standard marine tank will beat this if you can withstand the early pressure. Most players who open standard marine tank will get crushed by the early pressure this build is most powerful against standard marine tank. That is why I made it.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing
I do realize that this really isn't the current metagame, but it's still a viable option so It should be discussed, especially with the likelihood of hellions being nerfed in the next patch. Can you pressure him effectively if he also decides to expand relatively fast and go for an economic lead? It seems difficult to do as I doubt you'll have enough units to break a fortified marine position without tanks.
How often do you play against someone who is going pure marine right off the bat especially when players are going hellions all the damn time. Even if they do you would scout it with your reaper and you can just bunker up. I've had to do it once and it really wasn't that big of a deal. You'll hold and it'll end up being more all in than what you are doing
I do realize that this really isn't the current metagame, but it's still a viable option so It should be discussed, especially with the likelihood of hellions being nerfed in the next patch. Can you pressure him effectively if he also decides to expand relatively fast and go for an economic lead? It seems difficult to do as I doubt you'll have enough units to break a fortified marine position without tanks.
If you scout the quick expand you don't invest as much into reaper harass and have a quicker timing attack with stim. Marauders crush bunkers as well as small amounts of marines. With the ghost there to snipe repairing SCVs and marines you can do enough damage to get ahead of him economically.
Ghosts in TvT came to my mind too (not pure ghost idd, but enough to snipe their bio support), but then I thought about how the opponent would have to react. I) he would have to make ghosts too in order to emp your ghosts 2) you'd need to cloak and spread out your ghosts and try to be the first to land emps 3) both players would need to get a raven to detect the opponents ghosts 4) Viking wars ....
I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
On September 04 2011 17:51 FreshDumbledore wrote: Ghosts in TvT came to my mind too (not pure ghost idd, but enough to snipe their bio support), but then I thought about how the opponent would have to react. I) he would have to make ghosts too in order to emp your ghosts 2) you'd need to cloak and spread out your ghosts and try to be the first to land emps 3) both players would need to get a raven to detect the opponents ghosts 4) Viking wars ....
I don't anyone ever thinking oh shit he is getting ghost let me go my own ghost to emp his ghost. The longer the game goes on the more mech/air the game will turn so in return your own ghost become useless against his heavy mech. Sorry but don't see this ever happening
On September 04 2011 17:51 Shootemup. wrote: I have the same concern as some of the posters here, if he opens with a super safe build like 1-1-1 marine tank viking and just turtles up you are going to have huge problems midgame due to your expo being so late. The tanking Terran's expo is going to be around 8ish minutes, while yours is around 10. Plus you have no really useful tech, seeing as ghosts and marauders will get eaten alive by the Tank Hellion once the numbers get high enough.
I feel the main strength of this build is the first push, but seeing as you have no tech and a super late expo you're basically going a ghost marauder allin.
Most of you are doubting the reaper harass which kills plenty of SCVs as well as delays tech structure. If they get a viking then that is 1 pretty useless unit they spent a good amount of money on so that helps me out even more. Marauders do extremely well against tanks and if he is getting that quick viking he isn't going to have more than 3 tanks when the push comes. If I decide that I won't be able to break his siege tanks I contain him on 1 base and expand myself.
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