This guide has been a long time coming and I'm stilling shoring it up but it is a very satisfying build to execute and win with. I don't recommend using it unless you are already kind of adept at scouting and managing your economy probe-by-probe and making decisions of when you are 'allowed' to make probes or when you are forced to make units. But if you are not, trying this out a couple times will force you to improve upon these areas. Every new build you play and learn helps you disproportionately in some areas rather than others. In other words, every new build you learn improves at least some aspect in your compendium of starcraft II knowledge and ability.
Let me start off by saying one thing. This build in no way shape or form SOLVES 4 gate and therefore does not SOLVE the PvP match up as a whole. This build capitalizes off of the lack of information to be had in the match-up after the first stalker is out, bolstered by your own ability to control and manipulate what information your opponent has, supplemented by your ability to garner as much information as possible from what little you are able to scout.
You never want to use this if you scout 2 pylons, 1 gate and 1 gas. You can't pin him on anything other than 4gate and to assume you can get away with this build is absurd. You will die.
Now, let me list the situations in which you would even CONSIDER using this build. You have to be adept at controlling your scouting probe. You need to know EVERYTHING that is inside of his base before the first stalker pops + a little time for your probe to run away.
For convenience, let us define a standard offensive 4gate (3 gates on 24 supply, 2 pylons before 4 gates, 2nd stalker after additional gates are added) as a balls 4gate. All else equal, if your opponent does a balls 4gate and you do this build, you are dead.
You spy with your little probe...........
A 3rd pylon This one can be tricky. It doesn't necessarily rule out an aggressive econ 4gate, as weird as that sounds. This 4gate comes slower than a balls 4gate but can still give you issues if you do not deny the probe/proxy. A 3rd pylon in most cases means a 2nd gas after his 1st stalker is out, but it is a pretty tough call. I'm 50/50 on this one
A 2nd gas This one is less tricky than the 3rd pylon, as you'll never see a 4 gate that utilizes a 2nd gas in PvP, and you rarely see a 2nd gas to fake you into thinking he is not going to 4gate. Even if he fakes the 2nd gas, it's still 75 minerals slower than a balls 4gate (unless he makes it late and cancels it, but I won't get into that). I say go for it.
A 2nd Gateway 3 Stalker rush. You are usually safe as you can easily hold the 3 stalkers once your WG finishes and the 4gate resulting from a 3 stalker rush comes much later than a balls 4gate, so I say go for it.
A 21st probe This is the wild card. You can only attain this information if you keep your probe alive to the very last safe moment. It gets started after the zealot is done but while the stalker is still in queue. This can easily tip off a non-4gate as I've never seen ANYONE fake a 21st probe and then cancel it. It can still mean a non-balls 4gate, so you need to be careful still.
A 3rd Chronoboost on Nexus Either a non 4gate or a slow 4gate. Usually this will be in combination with one of the other tells. You know what to do.
*** If you are on antigua shipyard or shakuras plateau, you have the inherent advantage of a ramp at the natural, which will give you the first stalker volley in any engage vs a blink rush or a delayed 4gate. ***
9 Pylon 12 Gateway, scout. 14 Gas 15 Pylon 16 Core 18 Zealot* 21 Stalker 21 WG research (24 Stalker) Do this at first if you feel a little uneasy. Eventually cut this out for 2 more probes though.
*The 16 core gets your WG a little bit faster though you have to cut probes for a few seconds. It just reinforces the threat of your own balls 4gate. PvP is all about intimidation so it's worth it. You can get the zealot on 17 or 18; I prefer 18.
At this point, you want to feign 4gate. Devote all CB to WG, none to the stalker, none to probes. Your stalker gets out in time to deny information that pins you on anything other than a 4gate. Be aggressive with your stalker but not as aggressive with your zealot, especially if they opened with a 2nd gate way after core before their first stalker pops. You want to feign 4gate all the way. Make a pylon under their ramp if they did not open with 3 stalker rush. The only way they can push you back is if they are aggressive with their stalker+zealot as well. Play conservative.
If your zealot+stalker poke gets all the way to his ramp without opposition, that is a good thing. If he's trying to balls 4gate you, he wants a pylon under your ramp (cancel before completion of course) or at least close to it by the 5 min mark. Bring your units to the side of the ramp, not up it. You don't want to to get forcefielded but you want to see what is shooting you. Just a stalker? Pretty inconclusive. A sentry? NICE.
If you don't see a sentry, go ahead and retreat, checking for proxy pylons as you go. You don't have to fear his units coming after you as he wants to defend the 4 gate he has "scouted." If he gets up a proxy pylon and you never see it, it's still very possible he can pull off a delayed 4gate and kill you so stay on your toes.
26 Nexus 26 Gateway 26 Gateway (26 Forge?) 1 cannon can be very strong in the case of an econ 4gate or blink rush, but I'm not sure when exactly you need it. If you want it for a blink rush, you need to get the forge a little bit after 26 or the cannon won't be up in time. I've either been going forge or a 4th gate a little bit later, say on 34-38 food) 26 Pylon (in your main, but right on the edge so you can warp into your nat)
At this point, you have ruled out a balls 4gate. The only real threat is the 3 stalkers he made if opened 3 stalker rush or a proxy pylon behind an econ 4gate. Let's say you have found it and killed it for simplicity's sake (and you should have on your way back from his ramp anyway, so if you didn't, shame on you! xD)
If you put your gateways up on time and you CB'd your WG research, you will have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the 3 stalkers arrive and you can easily drive them away. You can even feign a blink rush because the stalker won't actually reach your natural before your warped in units can engage him and 4 stalkers is not very indicative of 1 base robo play.
You can move around the map a little bit with your stalkers. But, if you scouted a 2nd gas right after core, know that he can have blink as early as 6:40 (7:10 post 1.4) if he for some reason played very greedy into a super fast, super risky blink rush. 7:00-7:30 (7:30++ post 1.4) is more of an accurate ballpark. Don't get caught by blink stalkers.
Probe management is very important at this point. Most likely, your opponent is one basing. He'll have somewhere between 16-20 probes on minerals. You can have the SAME amount of probes as he does, but if they are well distributed between your 2 minerals lines, you will have at least 150 more mineral income per minute (nexus is paid off in 2.xxx minutes + maynard time if you stay on equal probes with your opponent) Consider this when you are thinking of tacking on additional probes. If you get any where near 5 more probes "ahead" of your opponent, you're probably dead for a lack of units.
I won't tell you how many probes or units to make because,
a. It's entirely situational b. I don't actually know yet
However, I can sum up the situations you will soon find yourself in.
1. He 4gates you, but much later than a balls 4gate. He will have to establish his proxy pylon after he moves out because of your feigned agression which buys you valuable time to establish gateway production. You want to either have a 4th gate in the works or a cannon down in time. You have a better economy so you can pump out units more efficiently than he can (plus he can't support 4 gates sustainably, but you can) if you chronoboost well. 3 Chronoboosted gates can hold him back if he's 4gating you because at this point he won't be able to keep his WG cool downs all the time) I wouldn't add probes until he is petering out.
Don't rush to get blink, but get it eventually. Once he retreats and transitions into whatever the hell it doesn't matter, and you finish blink you can simply walk across the map and kill him.
2. He blink rushes you. This is a tough fight and it's very micro/macro intensive. His stalkers are pretty much invincible from the virtue of blink. On Shakuras and Antigua, you will have a big advantage because he can't shoot you until he breaches the ramp. You do want stalkers, but zealots are very important as well. You want to keep his stalkers from shooting your stalkers for as long as possible. You need to hit every single WG on time during every fight while maintaining decent chronoboost on your gates. On the maps I did not mention, this is a VERY difficult fight. While you won't have blink when he gets it, you can still micro back your hurt stalkers because he can't offensively blink on top of you until he has pretty much already won.
You're going to want to transition into blink yourself, but be very careful. You don't want to take your 2nd gas too early or you won't have the mineral income to make enough units to stay alive.
3. He is none the wiser, and goes for a 1 base robo play. Get blink once you have ruled out the above situations and threaten a blink all in while you transition into chargelots and eventually a couple archons (be careful; you might not be able to get up archons in time for a one base push. But if they expand, definitely get archons!!) You should be able to keep him in his base for a long period of time with the 10-14 stalkers you made earlier for defense. Once you have a good stalker ball, one that can pick off his units as he tries to move out, only get zealots. You can get as many as 6 gates at this point depending on how many probes you made in the interim. You have to engage in a decent spot if you only have chargelots + blink stalkers. You want your zealots to envelope the push as well as possible. FFs are annoying. Blink stalkers on top of the collossi and focus them, of course.
Stay on 2 gasses for as long as possible, but get your 3rd when you feel safe. If he expands, go ahead and get 4 gasses and saturate both of your mineral lines and you'll eventually outmass and crush him. Your blink stalker/chargelot/archon force will roll him over because you had an early economic advantage.
The only consideration you have to take is positioning. You can't bust him unless you are EXTREMELY ahead as he will be able to put his colossus in very good spots where your chargelots and archons can't touch him. Wait until he is out of position or dreams of taking and securing a third. A-move your chargelot archons after you have positioned a decent concave for yourself and blink your stalkers from behind and target his colossus.
Lol. I opened like this against a phoenix opener once. He flew his first phoenixes and saw my natural and that I had blink and immediately left the game.
This can be quite difficult if your opponent has strong micro. You want to keep your zealots at your natural while keeping all of your stalkers plus maybe 1 or 2 zealots (usually warped in on the spot) in your main. He won't have as many units as he would if he was doing a blink rush, but it can get dicy on maps where he can forcefield your ramp without being right at your nexus (think xel'naga). It's worth it to start a cannon at the edge (and by edge I mean ~6-8 pixels from the edge so that he can't shoot it from the lowground but you still get vision of the obs if it's giving him a decent amount of vision) where you're most vulnerable to a blink in to provide potential vision of the observer as well as stationary defense against a blink in. You can get blink a little faster as opposed to when you're facing a blink rush because he has less actual units.
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That's all I have for the time being. This is still a very new build and I am constantly experimenting with it. At least for me, when I first started messing around with this, I felt less like I was trying to learn a new build and more like I was trying to learn a new language. Very little of what you have learned in PvP, at least outside of scouting, will apply here. Have fun with it!
replay 1: Shakuras, vs blink rush + obs. This will hit a little less hard as a blink rush, but he can blink into your base. I'm not really too afraid of this kind of play, as it pretty much means he will have 3 less stalkers than he would if he didn't get the obs. http://replayfu.com/download/sbw4js
replay 2: Antigua vs blink rush. This build is pretty good on this map against blink rushes because of the ramp at the nat as I've noted. It pretty much gives you a half blink as you can move back your hurt stalkers and he can't really do anything about it or he puts himself in a tight spot. http://replayfu.com/download/kLxL4f
replay 3: Antigua vs delayed 4gate. This build does well against a delayed 4gate on this map for the same reason it does well against a blink rush. He did lose his probe sloppily so I didn't have to find and kill the proxy pylon on the way back from his base. Consider that when you try to do this build against delayed 4 gate. You really need to make sure he didn't get a pylon up in time for his first warp in. http://replayfu.com/download/GvbtHq
replay 4: Shattered temple vs 1base robo. He played it safe and so I capitalized. He then established his own expansion but was behind because his was so much later. Forced to try to take a 3rd to come back in economy, I engage him trying to safeguard his 3rd. http://replayfu.com/download/Sqz49p
replay 5: Abyssal caverns vs 1base robo. It's pretty close to how the 4th replay was, but I was able to be greedier with my expansion and could easily bust his nat off 2 base. http://replayfu.com/download/Njg2wq
replay 6: Shakuras vs DT drop. If you don't see anything indicative of robo tech at the ramp and he hasn't moved out with stalkers for a blink timing, you should assume it's either DT drop or that he's going to swing in with a bunch of phoenixes at any moment. In either case, drop a cannon in your main mineral line and if the drop does come, make sure you surround the cannon with probes so he can't get any free licks at it while you warp in some units to fend it off. You might lose some infrastructure that isn't in sight range of your cannon, but as long as you don't lose too much you are still ahead because of your faster expansion. Also, it's nice to know that his colo tech will be late if he chooses that route, and his WG army will be weaker because he has invested so much in the shrine + dts.
Note: In some of these replays I get 2 stalkers and 2 probes up to 26 food instead of 1 stalker and 22 probes. the 20 probe version is a little safer and sells a 4gate harder if he pushes with a 3 stalker rush. I am not sure which is better against what, but I think if both are played perfectly, the 22 probe, 1 stalker 1 zealot at 26 food, comes out ahead.
*** replayfu is down unfortunately. If it is down for a significant amount of time, I will transfer the above replays to a different site.
I have been trying something similar to this but only with forge and cannon, going 2 gates at first instead of 3, I didn't like it too much as a cannon isn't actually that strong in pvp especially considering the first one basically costs 300 and makes your immobile. Forge + cannon also is quite an investment so if they simply scout the expo then they could expo themselves and be equal because you cut probes so long.
The version you have going without forge is much better because they can't simply expand as well so easily and you can probably even defend much stuff better. DT can be troublesome and should be added to your guide as a weakness or at least add a solution to the problem. You could in case of DT's retreat to your main and FF the ramp while you get an obs i guess, the nexus can probably survive just long enough then if you had your robo in time it still requires some very delicate scouting though.
The timing for this guide is excellent by the way as this will be buffed quite a bit in the next patch. Blink stalkers being slower tremendously helps. The blink stalker rush itself will not only be slower you can also walk around with your stalker on the map for longer without fear of blink stalkers killing it. This will make it much easier to scout something like DTs then. Finally the vision thing will also help alot to defend in case of a plateau at the natural. There is a slight possibility some things will be actually more dangerous as well though, for example greedier DT techs could become safer now because of the blink and vision changes. Very fast DT will be troublesome for this to hold..
On August 26 2011 08:10 Markwerf wrote: I have been trying something similar to this but only with forge and cannon, going 2 gates at first instead of 3, I didn't like it too much as a cannon isn't actually that strong in pvp especially considering the first one basically costs 300 and makes your immobile. Forge + cannon also is quite an investment so if they simply scout the expo then they could expo themselves and be equal because you cut probes so long.
I feel the 3 gates are definitely essential and so is a 4th eventually (primarily against blink; you don't have blink micro at your finger tips so you're force to try to bludgeon a blink rush with mass units). Im considering adding the forge soon after the 2 additional gates as standard measure if you scout a 2nd gas to account for DT as well as blink rush; A single cannon does stupid good dps and is AMAZING on antigua + shak because they take at least 2 shots from it just trying to get vision up the ramp. I don't by them being equal by expanding after they see the cannon. If they stop making units, regardless of if they continue trying to push, I'm going to make more probes and there is no way they will be able to catch up before I get my own blink.
The version you have going without forge is much better because they can't simply expand as well so easily and you can probably even defend much stuff better. DT can be troublesome and should be added to your guide as a weakness or at least add a solution to the problem. You could in case of DT's retreat to your main and FF the ramp while you get an obs i guess, the nexus can probably survive just long enough then if you had your robo in time it still requires some very delicate scouting though.
I am not too afraid of a dt rush with this build. If they open DT, they have no map presence and a single stalker before standard blink timing gets all the way to their base (even a single enemy stalker at a tower doesn't deter me because it doesn't have blink). There is a small window of time where aggression scares me and that is at about 7:30, but you are aware of it long before that. If you don't sniff out any aggression, you can deal with it on time. I will concede that I haven't faced every possible type of DT rush imaginable while doing this, however.
The timing for this guide is excellent by the way as this will be buffed quite a bit in the next patch. Blink stalkers being slower tremendously helps. The blink stalker rush itself will not only be slower you can also walk around with your stalker on the map for longer without fear of blink stalkers killing it. This will make it much easier to scout something like DTs then. Finally the vision thing will also help alot to defend in case of a plateau at the natural. There is a slight possibility some things will be actually more dangerous as well though, for example greedier DT techs could become safer now because of the blink and vision changes. Very fast DT will be troublesome for this to hold
Haha yes when I saw the blink nerf I knew it would help this build tremendously. A cannon will probably be standard in conjunction with the nerf because it will definitely get up in time for a blink rush and also stop all DT rushes in their tracks. I agree that dt rushes will become safer against blink rushes so they will probably become more prevalent as blink rushing is phased out a little bit. That will allow for this cannon change as I mentioned. All around good news!
Pretty cool build. Relies heavily on mind games, since any sort of fake tech tech/econ into delayed 4 gate will kill you without question. That's not a bad thing though, since most of PvP is like that anyway. I've seen a 3rd pylon, 20+ probes, 2nd gas, 3 chronos on nexus, 3 stalker rush all turn into delayed 4 gates. Those would be deadly since although they will be 1-2 units behind a balls 4 gate, you'll be 3-4 units behind and that's a huge disadvantage for you even if you have ramp.
Ok ok here's a question for real. How do you react vs a 4gate robo all in? You know with 3 colossus and stuff. Do you go for a basetrade like other blink builds or is the eco advantage enough to hold it in a fight?
The amount of love I feel for you right now is beyond pretty much anything I've ever felt starcraft related. As soon as I've finished the replays I'm going to come straight back here with my thoughts.
On August 26 2011 08:33 Latedi wrote: Ok ok here's a question for real. How do you react vs a 4gate robo all in? You know with 3 colossus and stuff. Do you go for a basetrade like other blink builds or is the eco advantage enough to hold it in a fight?
All included in the 1 base robo section. You can keep them at home with 10+ stalkers for a long time while massing up chargelot. Archons are kind of iffy here as it's tough to have them while having a lot of units when the push comes. See the game against wbc on temple in the replays section. If he doesn't have blink you can harass his army whenever his army is not up his ramp. You might delay a push that would leave at 11-12 minutes by as much as 2 minutes which is quite enough time to macro up a LOT of chargelots. I usually only go for archons if they try to expand with the robo opening, as you can easily get them up without any fear.
On August 26 2011 08:35 QuAnTuM314 wrote: The amount of love I feel for you right now is beyond pretty much anything I've ever felt starcraft related. As soon as I've finished the replays I'm going to come straight back here with my thoughts.
Thank you so so much!
Thanks for your feedback I look forward to your thoughts/input
On August 26 2011 08:33 Latedi wrote: Ok ok here's a question for real. How do you react vs a 4gate robo all in? You know with 3 colossus and stuff. Do you go for a basetrade like other blink builds or is the eco advantage enough to hold it in a fight?
All included in the 1 base robo section. You can keep them at home with 10+ stalkers for a long time while massing up chargelot. Archons are kind of iffy here as it's tough to have them while having a lot of units when the push comes. See the game against wbc on temple in the replays section. If he doesn't have blink you can harass his army whenever his army is not up his ramp. You might delay a push that would leave at 11-12 minutes by as much as 2 minutes which is quite enough time to macro up a LOT of chargelots. I usually only go for archons if they try to expand with the robo opening, as you can easily get them up without any fear.
Did you edit the OP after I posted? That's dirty I think Uuh sorry, I think I will watch the replays and come back later. I'm too tired to think clearly.
you say that 21 probes can signal a non 4 gate, but don't a lot of protoss's do a balls 4 gate with 22 probes as you can still get 2 pylons down at their ramp and get the 4 stalker warp in at the same time as cutting at 20 probes (which is 24/26 supply if I'm not mistaken)
On August 26 2011 08:56 mixXanber wrote: you say that 21 probes can signal a non 4 gate, but don't a lot of protoss's do a balls 4 gate with 22 probes as you can still get 2 pylons down at their ramp and get the 4 stalker warp in at the same time as cutting at 20 probes (which is 24/26 supply if I'm not mistaken)
If they're trying to force pylons down with only one zealot and one stalker before WG finishes, you'll have no problem denying those pylons with your own zealot+stalker+probe. Consider getting a 2nd stalker rather than probes 21 and 22 if this scares you.
On August 26 2011 08:33 Latedi wrote: Ok ok here's a question for real. How do you react vs a 4gate robo all in? You know with 3 colossus and stuff. Do you go for a basetrade like other blink builds or is the eco advantage enough to hold it in a fight?
All included in the 1 base robo section. You can keep them at home with 10+ stalkers for a long time while massing up chargelot. Archons are kind of iffy here as it's tough to have them while having a lot of units when the push comes. See the game against wbc on temple in the replays section. If he doesn't have blink you can harass his army whenever his army is not up his ramp. You might delay a push that would leave at 11-12 minutes by as much as 2 minutes which is quite enough time to macro up a LOT of chargelots. I usually only go for archons if they try to expand with the robo opening, as you can easily get them up without any fear.
Did you edit the OP after I posted? That's dirty I think Uuh sorry, I think I will watch the replays and come back later. I'm too tired to think clearly.
I felt like I had more content in that section before going live with it sorry! Either that or I for some reason assumed most protosses would have seen that situation a million times just because I have from doing this build :D
love the fact that you and time have been coming out with these builds. We will have you guys to thank when protoss gets a positive win rate cant wait to try this out
Thanks so much. Downloading replays now. I had been trying to work on something similar to this with some practice partners but I just kept on getting rolled due to lack of units. Looking forward to see how you did it!
On August 26 2011 09:46 Volka wrote: Nice. I notice you don't really get in a hurry to get upgrades, which is kind of suprising since you're getting the Forge. Any thoughts?
Against anything but 1 base robo play it's way too risky. And if you face delayed 4gate or blink rush, by the time your upgrade finishes you have either lost to the rush, or you have held it off and the other guy leaves ggs or you have already walked across the map and smased him xD
edit: I should probably incorporate more upgrades into vs robo play. You could easily have 1/1 or 2/0 by the time you have to engage if they expanded, or 1/0 or 0/1 if they don't. I'm still not entirely sure if I want armor or weapons though.
Maybe this: If they haven't expanded, get +1 weapons so you can be more effective with your blink contain. If they expand from there, get +1 armor in addition to your +1 weapons so your chargelots are more hardy. Not to mention you'll have archons by the time you engage if they expanded, and +1 archons against zealots is like el oh el oh el (see the game on shattered temple)
I was trying out this build on ladder on PvP but also other setups (PvZ mostly), and i had a few problems with it, for the record im mid-gold player. I have to say I was not very successful with it.
The thing in PvP is that, when i finally start making units out of my gateways and try to get colossi, the opponent usually attacks and crushes me with a lot bigger army because he is going 1base.
The thing in PvZ is that, I cant put early pressure on the zerg so he expands a lot of times, and then its just impossible for me to catch up to him.
My macro is not best, nor is my micro or decision making. Is it caused that im getting stuff (gateways, scout) slow, or is it my macro, or am I just somewhere completely wrong?
If needed, i may be able to upload some replays tommorow.
On August 26 2011 10:11 Rhythmicx wrote: Hello people,
I was trying out this build on ladder on PvP but also other setups (PvZ mostly), and i had a few problems with it, for the record im mid-gold player. I have to say I was not very successful with it.
The thing in PvP is that, when i finally start making units out of my gateways and try to get colossi, the opponent usually attacks and crushes me with a lot bigger army because he is going 1base.
The thing in PvZ is that, I cant put early pressure on the zerg so he expands a lot of times, and then its just impossible for me to catch up to him.
My macro is not best, nor is my micro or decision making. Is it caused that im getting stuff (gateways, scout) slow, or is it my macro, or am I just somewhere completely wrong?
If needed, i may be able to upload some replays tommorow.
Hello, and welcome to TL
First of all, this is meant for PvP only so your comments in this thread should pertain accordingly. Second, you don't want to go into colossus with this build. It's just not safe to tech.
On August 26 2011 10:11 Rhythmicx wrote: Hello people,
I was trying out this build on ladder on PvP but also other setups (PvZ mostly), and i had a few problems with it, for the record im mid-gold player. I have to say I was not very successful with it.
The thing in PvP is that, when i finally start making units out of my gateways and try to get colossi, the opponent usually attacks and crushes me with a lot bigger army because he is going 1base.
The thing in PvZ is that, I cant put early pressure on the zerg so he expands a lot of times, and then its just impossible for me to catch up to him.
My macro is not best, nor is my micro or decision making. Is it caused that im getting stuff (gateways, scout) slow, or is it my macro, or am I just somewhere completely wrong?
If needed, i may be able to upload some replays tommorow.
Hello, and welcome to TL
First of all, this is meant for PvP only so your comments in this thread should pertain accordingly. Second, you don't want to go into colossus with this build. It's just not safe to tech.
Ok, I played a game with a friend which also is in gold, and told him to go only gateway units to see if i can outmacro his 1 base with my 2 early on, and i just couldn't hold the 4 gate push and it was not even close.. Is there any way to improve this? For the record i was producing out of my gateways at all times and threw down additional gateways when i had excess money for it, otherwise my main priority were probes.
I have used this build on shakuras alot. I often got killed by hallu+ dt or warp prism+ dt. Blink+ obs is really tough too, as they can harass you quite well. I was able to hold blink builds, but only by throwing down at least two cannons.
The only issue I'm having is that you're not giving your opponents enough credit for the mind games they can play. PvP is all about mind games anyway, and almost any opener can lead to a more or less delayed 4 gate that will wreak your build if he decides to blind 4 gate you. When I'm going to hardcord 4 gate someone, I always go for the late gas cancel and fake probe. Bascially, I wouldn't feel any safer doing this build against a typical 12 gate zealot stalker than any other build. PvP is like trying to figure out a magician's trick, you shouldn't take ANYTHING for granted.
But now that people have started figuring out how to defend 4 gates in the early game, this build has a lot of potential to exploit the passiveness of some of them and that's pretty awesome. Will definitely be trying to pull it off in a couple of ladder games
On August 26 2011 16:51 Geiko wrote: Yeaaaah, a consistent guide on 1 gate FE
The only issue I'm having is that you're not giving your opponents enough credit for the mind games they can play. PvP is all about mind games anyway, and almost any opener can lead to a more or less delayed 4 gate that will wreak your build if he decides to blind 4 gate you. When I'm going to hardcord 4 gate someone, I always go for the late gas cancel and fake probe. Bascially, I wouldn't feel any safer doing this build against a typical 12 gate zealot stalker than any other build. PvP is like trying to figure out a magician's trick, you shouldn't take ANYTHING for granted.
But now that people have started figuring out how to defend 4 gates in the early game, this build has a lot of potential to exploit the passiveness of some of them and that's pretty awesome. Will definitely be trying to pull it off in a couple of ladder games
Yes yes it's true they can play mind games in the form of making things that would slow down a 4gate if they actually did it. I'm fine with that, because just faking it out makes it less efficient and later.
You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
On August 26 2011 10:11 Rhythmicx wrote: Hello people,
I was trying out this build on ladder on PvP but also other setups (PvZ mostly), and i had a few problems with it, for the record im mid-gold player. I have to say I was not very successful with it.
The thing in PvP is that, when i finally start making units out of my gateways and try to get colossi, the opponent usually attacks and crushes me with a lot bigger army because he is going 1base.
The thing in PvZ is that, I cant put early pressure on the zerg so he expands a lot of times, and then its just impossible for me to catch up to him.
My macro is not best, nor is my micro or decision making. Is it caused that im getting stuff (gateways, scout) slow, or is it my macro, or am I just somewhere completely wrong?
If needed, i may be able to upload some replays tommorow.
Hello, and welcome to TL
First of all, this is meant for PvP only so your comments in this thread should pertain accordingly. Second, you don't want to go into colossus with this build. It's just not safe to tech.
Ok, I played a game with a friend which also is in gold, and told him to go only gateway units to see if i can outmacro his 1 base with my 2 early on, and i just couldn't hold the 4 gate push and it was not even close.. Is there any way to improve this? For the record i was producing out of my gateways at all times and threw down additional gateways when i had excess money for it, otherwise my main priority were probes.
Read the OP in full before responding. It admittedly loses to 4-gate and shouldn't even be attempted unless the scouting information reveals a non 4-gate opening.
Also:
I don't recommend using it unless you are already kind of adept at scouting and managing your economy probe-by-probe and making decisions of when you are 'allowed' to make probes or when you are forced to make units.
On August 26 2011 17:12 L3g3nd_ wrote: this build is nothing but a coinflip. if he fakes a tech build and you do this and it turns out he is 4gating, you lose.
i would not advise anyone to play like this. flipping a coin and hoping you win is _NOT_ a good way to play
Of course it's a coinflip, but so are a lot of builds in SC2. If you're playing an opponent who is not as skilled as you are, it's a bad idea, but against a better player, you're going to need to try and get an edge somewhere. This build looks pretty good at minimizing the situations where you will auto lose, and maximizing the advantage you get if you don't die right away. As I see it, the only way to consitently beat this build is to blind all in yourself.
So you deny scouting with the stalker, drop your nexus.. but what if the probe comes back to scout ? Your stalker won't kill it in time before it sees the nexus up. Also positioning your stalker on the choke will look suspicious. I know I'd probably either send back my probe, either send my stalker asap and go past yours to see what's going on in your base..
On August 26 2011 17:12 L3g3nd_ wrote: this build is nothing but a coinflip. if he fakes a tech build and you do this and it turns out he is 4gating, you lose.
i would not advise anyone to play like this. flipping a coin and hoping you win is _NOT_ a good way to play
Even though I probably won't suddenly turned into an early expanding PvP player, I have to say that exactly THIS has also been said to kcdc when he first presented his one gate expo in PvT....pretty much a year ago.
People argued that it just wasn't possible to hold the expo vs 3 rax pressure and that one gate expo is way too risky to be worth the hassle.
If we think this through, PvP is behind in the metagame due to the 4gate vs 4gate. Maybe, just maybe, 4 gate will be dead soon except on maps like TalDarim. Then one gate expo only had to be hold-able against pure tech openings. And blink also gets nerfed in 1.4. (supposedly), so this will give the defending player another very valuable 30 seconds to mass up units.
On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
with the upcoming ramp vision change its no longer possible to warp units over forcefields on ramps therefor on maps with default ramps 4gate might as well be dead
On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean that old builds will be useless!
Reset means that each and every build will have to ge re-evaluated due to the three critical changes: a) -1 vision: HUGE, every BO has to be tested as to how greedy you can be from now on against 4 gates b) +1 immortal range: important: one gate robo into 2 more gates deserves a closer look now. Together with a) it "could" turn out to be possible to hold since immortals cannot be kited any more. c) blink nerf: important: greedy builds have to be re-evaluated if they can now hold vs straight blink all-ins.
Just a number of questions straight from the top of my head: 1. Will a 3 stalker opening be necessary anymore? Do you even need the early 2nd gate since pylons below the ramp aren't that big of a deal if you can't warp above forcefields? 2. Will immortal-pushs vs straight colossus techs work now, since immortals have the same range as colossi without range? We don't have to forget that immortals do SICK damage to colossi, if they can indeed get in range. Additionally: Would 2 immortal + prism work vs one base colossus? Higher range of immortals + more shields of prism definitely needs to be investigated. 3. How does the blink nerf affect a robo into TC player who tries to harass a colossus-techer with blink? Will the blink be delayed too much now to do critical harassment? 4. Will going straight immortals into expand work? Will mass-immortals work now vs blink, since stalkers can't hit without getting hit back? How about chargelot/immortal? 5. Could the very old build from Kiwikaki, zealot/immortal/voidray become useful again with nerfed 4gate and double-nerfed blink vs immortals? (meaning blink-nerf combined with immortal buff)
On August 26 2011 17:12 L3g3nd_ wrote: this build is nothing but a coinflip. if he fakes a tech build and you do this and it turns out he is 4gating, you lose.
i would not advise anyone to play like this. flipping a coin and hoping you win is _NOT_ a good way to play
Even though I probably won't suddenly turned into an early expanding PvP player, I have to say that exactly THIS has also been said to kcdc when he first presented his one gate expo in PvT....pretty much a year ago.
People argued that it just wasn't possible to hold the expo vs 3 rax pressure and that one gate expo is way too risky to be worth the hassle.
If we think this through, PvP is behind in the metagame due to the 4gate vs 4gate. Maybe, just maybe, 4 gate will be dead soon except on maps like TalDarim. Then one gate expo only had to be hold-able against pure tech openings. And blink also gets nerfed in 1.4. (supposedly), so this will give the defending player another very valuable 30 seconds to mass up units.
Its different as its a mirror match up. but if you make a wrong read and you do this and your opponent 4gates, you lose. simple. maybe in 6months or a year it will be different, but atm this is a cheesy coin flip. a macro all in if you will.
a build where you go "please dont do X please dont do X" is not a good build in my book.
On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean that old builds will be useless!
Reset means that each and every build will have to ge re-evaluated due to the three critical changes: a) -1 vision: HUGE, every BO has to be tested as to how greedy you can be from now on against 4 gates b) +1 immortal range: important: one gate robo into 2 more gates deserves a closer look now. Together with a) it "could" turn out to be possible to hold since immortals cannot be kited any more. c) blink nerf: important: greedy builds have to be re-evaluated if they can now hold vs straight blink all-ins.
Just a number of questions straight from the top of my head: 1. Will a 3 stalker opening be necessary anymore? Do you even need the early 2nd gate since pylons below the ramp aren't that big of a deal if you can't warp above forcefields? 2. Will immortal-pushs vs straight colossus techs work now, since immortals have the same range as colossi without range? We don't have to forget that immortals do SICK damage to colossi, if they can indeed get in range. Additionally: Would 2 immortal + prism work vs one base colossus? Higher range of immortals + more shields of prism definitely needs to be investigated. 3. How does the blink nerf affect a robo into TC player who tries to harass a colossus-techer with blink? Will the blink be delayed too much now to do critical harassment? 4. Will going straight immortals into expand work? Will mass-immortals work now vs blink, since stalkers can't hit without getting hit back? How about chargelot/immortal? 5. Could the very old build from Kiwikaki, zealot/immortal/voidray become useful again with nerfed 4gate and double-nerfed blink vs immortals? (meaning blink-nerf combined with immortal buff)
Not to mention also with blink and 4 gate, you can no longer warp units onto the ramp with a forcefield at the bottom, granting vision to the high ground. It is the same with blinking a stalker to the middle of the ramp and then blinking the rest of your army up. It wont be possible to bum rush a ramp with zealots and pylons, or blink aggressively into the base without vision from the air against a defensive player with good sentry micro.
On August 26 2011 17:05 sleepingdog wrote: You forget to use the [G] tag - always lable your threads properly please, as it is explained in the strategy forum guidelines
Will look into the reps definitely - what do you think, could a one gate robo 3 gate fast immortals attack be threatening? I've seen whitera do something like that vs an early expand....cannons are quite useless if the immortal user is capable of rightlicking ze cannons and scouting a tech opening could possibly mislead you to play it more greedy? In the lights of upcoming 1.4. I think most of your future investigation should be focussed upon one gate robo and 3 gate robo builds...I assume that few people will blink rush in the future. Overall it looks very promising - even though 1.4. will reset PvP anyways, so expect lots of crazy going on there soon
What are you serious? I can't imagine 1.4 "resetting PvP" it's way too early to tell.
"Reset" doesn't necessarily mean that old builds will be useless!
Reset means that each and every build will have to ge re-evaluated due to the three critical changes: a) -1 vision: HUGE, every BO has to be tested as to how greedy you can be from now on against 4 gates b) +1 immortal range: important: one gate robo into 2 more gates deserves a closer look now. Together with a) it "could" turn out to be possible to hold since immortals cannot be kited any more. c) blink nerf: important: greedy builds have to be re-evaluated if they can now hold vs straight blink all-ins.
Just a number of questions straight from the top of my head: 1. Will a 3 stalker opening be necessary anymore? Do you even need the early 2nd gate since pylons below the ramp aren't that big of a deal if you can't warp above forcefields? 2. Will immortal-pushs vs straight colossus techs work now, since immortals have the same range as colossi without range? We don't have to forget that immortals do SICK damage to colossi, if they can indeed get in range. Additionally: Would 2 immortal + prism work vs one base colossus? Higher range of immortals + more shields of prism definitely needs to be investigated. 3. How does the blink nerf affect a robo into TC player who tries to harass a colossus-techer with blink? Will the blink be delayed too much now to do critical harassment? 4. Will going straight immortals into expand work? Will mass-immortals work now vs blink, since stalkers can't hit without getting hit back? How about chargelot/immortal? 5. Could the very old build from Kiwikaki, zealot/immortal/voidray become useful again with nerfed 4gate and double-nerfed blink vs immortals? (meaning blink-nerf combined with immortal buff)
Wah all of this sounds so good. I hope this will come true and then I won't dislike PvP anymore I promise. I can't imagine any old builds becoming useless though, except maybe 4gate vs someone with sentries. The blink nerf will surely make blink rushes weaker but I can't imagine it changing the blink vs robo situation at all, the blink is mainly for harass and basetrade, not for an actual fight.
On August 26 2011 17:12 L3g3nd_ wrote: this build is nothing but a coinflip. if he fakes a tech build and you do this and it turns out he is 4gating, you lose.
i would not advise anyone to play like this. flipping a coin and hoping you win is _NOT_ a good way to play
This really depends how much he spends to 'fake' the tech. A nexus alone only costs about 275 minerals given it also works as a superpylon (not too mention extra chrono). If they take a 2nd gas and some probes beyond 20 you can hold with this strat imo especially if the map has a small defenders advantage at the natural (like shakuras for example).
This build is good to know imo even if just only as a response to getting gas stolen while they take their 2nd gas. In that case (they have spent 150 minerals more on assimilators then you) this build is 100% safe imo and will put you in a good spot. Getting the forge and cannon in that case makes it completely safe then i think.
On August 26 2011 22:37 Markwerf wrote: This build is good to know imo even if just only as a response to getting gas stolen while they take their 2nd gas. In that case (they have spent 150 minerals more on assimilators then you) this build is 100% safe imo and will put you in a good spot. Getting the forge and cannon in that case makes it completely safe then i think.
Interesting point about the gassteal - if they take their 2nd gas and steal mine, you not only have to factor in the 150 minerals they spent, but also hat I have 15 minerals to spare because I do, in fact, not get a 2nd assimilator. I realize that the difference is "only" 150, but what I meant is that the 75 minerals are accessible to me to make for a smoothe build. Also I have a higher mineral-income because I don't mine gas with 6 probes. I don't even have to immediately kill the assimilator, as I will have access to the gas at the natural. Seems like a good response especially on shakuras and antiga.
Do you always tend to transition into Blink after you expand? I've had a lot of success going Robo after my 3rd Gate so that I can squeeze out an Immortal vs Blink pushes, whereas I see myself having a lot of issues holding a Blink push if I went for Blink myself since they'll hit a timing where they have it and I don't. I could also go Forge + cannons but going Robo seems much more robust. IMO a well-timed Blink push is the hardest to hold for this build, assuming you scouted properly.
Sick. I've done a similar build for a while and had very similar responses to all of the above. The only thing I did kind of differently was incorporate a forge in to defend against DTs and to get some quick ups.
On August 27 2011 04:56 Skillver wrote: I have a question:
On replay 2, how did you know that he isnt going 4gate? He saved a lot of chrono and u just scoutet 2 pylon 1gas
oh haha I forgot about that game. I was in that guy's head xD I wouldn't recommend dropping the nexus at that time if you have seen what I had seen that game. If it's inconclusive and he hasn't moved out, you can delay dropping the nexus so you can drop your own 3 additional gates and be defensive as the nexus goes down around the same time (a little later, sure) you would add those gates.
Important to note about that game- I should have stayed in his base longer with the probe and I would have either seen the second gas, or more importantly, delayed his 2nd gas until my probe left, making his rush slightly later.
He could have gone into my 3rd and dropped a pylon with that probe and 4gated, so I should have checked that as well but instead I went to feign pressure. It was the right call in this case, but that was pretty coinflippy I admit.
I tried it out against a blink stalking player, and he spread his bases, so I had hard troubles finishing him, whereas he could kill my entire base. Any ideas on that case?
I put together a video about this this morning. I had just woken up, so I think I spoke a little slowly and missed some key points. I might remake it later!
You actually need to be very careful on Antigua. IMO it's a great map to blink stalker rush against your build. The problem lies with them actually blinking a stalker INTO your base and using it to get vision onto the high ground of the main base. This would force the player with the expo to have to split their forces because the opponent could blink up into the main base or attack the expo then.
I believe the best way to defend this is to keep your units more toward the main expo ramp instead of outwards like you did to defend in your replay.
Another thing: the blink stalker rush you faced wasn't that great overall. I can have roughly 10-11 stalkers by the time he had his first 7 when your opponent attacked in the replay. The main reason I'm pointing this out is that it makes blinking past the defender to get into the main much easier when the attacker has 2 or more stalkers to try and do it with and not have to worry about having a lesser amount in the ball fighting your stalkers.
On August 26 2011 09:10 TechnoSchaman wrote: love the fact that you and time have been coming out with these builds. We will have you guys to thank when protoss gets a positive win rate cant wait to try this out
I agree this a great build but would take actual thinking as opposed to being a mindless drone. And as a fellow Protoss, don't you know Protoss is imbalanced? We have a 100 win rate in PvP. It's disgusting.
I'm a little confused about the 3 stalker timings you're talking about. When I 3 stalker rush, my poke comes at around 5:30ish (give or take due to map size and positions) which is before even a balls 4gate. It seems like this is a vulnerable timing before you get your warpgate up where you've obviously invested a lot into your nexus as well.
I'm just mentioning it because 3 stalker rush seems to be a fairly common/safe (lol) build.
Other than that I really like your write up and I think this will only get more viable with the patch (blink stalkers come 30 seconds later and everything else has to deal with FFs) builds like this will help change the metagame for PvP into something that is less than hell.
This guide is a really good and fleshed out, so thanks for that. Its potentially the strongest way to win vs. 3gate robo PvP; just run it over with upgraded tier 2 and dont attack into a choke.
There's a part that I disagree with, though; where you say if you scout xxx you delay your expansion. I dont think you can. This build works because you can overcome your 400 mineral detriment by mining from your second base by the time a 2gas tech push hits. You do this by:
Feigning 4-gate Mining from expo ASAP Delaying any push or timing however you can
If anything 'delays' your nexus, making it leaves you vulnerable to the normal timings that occur from blink and robo. Instead, just make a few extra probes and transition into a robust 1 -base blinkstalker or roblink build, which should hold 4gate and put you slightly ahead in workers and tech.
Only problem I see that sometimes even if you try to fake it and trick them they are so dumb and don't know or react properly to what they see, they see I have robotics and still make DT shrine or something. However, not that this has anything to do to this build.
I think I encountered it on ladder yesterday, I tried a slow 4 gate against him but he had shitloads of stalkers that turned into bstalkers. Pushed me all the way back to my base, only mistake for him was that he left the rest of his units behind so he lost all bstalkers and I was able to kill him with my own bstalkers, guess this is why this build seems a bit fragile to bstalkers. But I think if my opponent had better micro he could deffinelty win, will be sure to check this out.-
On August 27 2011 17:24 Deezl wrote: This guide is a really good and fleshed out, so thanks for that. Its potentially the strongest way to win vs. 3gate robo PvP; just run it over with upgraded tier 2 and dont attack into a choke.
There's a part that I disagree with, though; where you say if you scout xxx you delay your expansion. I dont think you can. This build works because you can overcome your 400 mineral detriment by mining from your second base by the time a 2gas tech push hits. You do this by:
Feigning 4-gate Mining from expo ASAP Delaying any push or timing however you can
If anything 'delays' your nexus, making it leaves you vulnerable to the normal timings that occur from blink and robo. Instead, just make a few extra probes and transition into a robust 1 -base blinkstalker or roblink build, which should hold 4gate and put you slightly ahead in workers and tech.
Yeah I've never delayed the nexus on purpose. The only delay I was talking about is waiting until you have extracted all of the info before you make your decision.
On August 27 2011 01:57 Skyro wrote: Do you always tend to transition into Blink after you expand? I've had a lot of success going Robo after my 3rd Gate so that I can squeeze out an Immortal vs Blink pushes, whereas I see myself having a lot of issues holding a Blink push if I went for Blink myself since they'll hit a timing where they have it and I don't. I could also go Forge + cannons but going Robo seems much more robust. IMO a well-timed Blink push is the hardest to hold for this build, assuming you scouted properly.
Yeah blink is pretty much the only way. I don't see how you could afford to get immortals in time for a delayed 4 gate or a blink stalker rush while still having enough gateway units to support.
have you ever faced a warpprism dt after the expo is scouted? I can see that being a problem for the main base as there are no cannons there...hummm this is totally theorycraftin lol
I want to note that this build is a result of the general fact that going for Forge and cannons instead of a lot of gates holds off many gateway based timing attacks. You can use a forge with a variety of styles to hold of early aggression, in addition to fast expanding. I personally like to go 1gateway, 1 stargate, 1 forge, and get a lot of phoenix. If you see him going for gates you get cannons early. its pretty effective if you know your timings.
Yay thank you so much. Laddering has been getting a little boring for me lately (I'm only Diamond though) and this will be something new to try out. PvP used to be one of my best MU's but lately I've been losing more and a change of pace sounds nice to the early robo builds I have been using.
On August 28 2011 07:00 Cloudshade wrote: have you ever faced a warpprism dt after the expo is scouted? I can see that being a problem for the main base as there are no cannons there...hummm this is totally theorycraftin lol
When I get a forge with this build and scout a passive player with not that many sentries yes I get a forge in my main min line
edit: played a game vs jf and got a cannon in mine line. If theres no pressure you should assume dt or robo. robo will have at least a sentry so they don't die to delayed 4gate. might as well get a cannon in main min line just in case
If you don't see blink and can't confirm robo and you don't see a relatively quick expand (timing of 3g expand, 3g robo expand and you can pretty much rule out colossus expand because you can't confirm robo) I recommend getting a cannon in your main mineral line for the possibility of dt drop or phoenix play. Phoenix play really isn't scary if you open this way because you are SOOOOOO far ahead if they open air with no expansion so it's really just for dt drop.
Against late game colossus armies, I don't recommend transitioning into colossus though that might be alright; haven't had enough games like that though. If you find that your chargelot/archon army with some blink stalkers can't kill his army straight up because of the terrain of certain maps bolstering the strength of colossi, I recommend getting void rays to deal with them. The only way he can fight your void rays is with stalkers, and a decent amount of void rays with chargelot/archon support is extremely good against colossus/WG armies as you can see from this replay.
On August 26 2011 07:49 Alejandrisha wrote: I've never seen ANYONE fake a 21st probe and then cancel it. It can still mean a non-balls 4gate, so you need to be careful still.
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I fake probe production every time I 4 gate. I start the probe and cancel it at the last second until I can deny scouting. It costs 12 minerals a pop, but all they see is a constantly active nexus. Encouraging them to lower their guard is well worth the 24 minerals spent. Hats off to my opponent if they're constantly watching the nexus and can tell that nothing is coming out.
On August 26 2011 07:49 Alejandrisha wrote: I've never seen ANYONE fake a 21st probe and then cancel it. It can still mean a non-balls 4gate, so you need to be careful still.
I fake probe production every time I 4 gate. I start the probe and cancel it at the last second until I can deny scouting. It costs 12 minerals a pop, but all they see is a constantly active nexus. Encouraging them to lower their guard is well worth the 24 minerals spent. Hats off to my opponent if they're constantly watching the nexus and can tell that nothing is coming out.
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Er you get a full refund for cancelling a unit. You even get the full refund if the building was destroyed while the unit was in production. It's only cancelling buildings where you get the 75% refund.
Yeah I haven't been updating this OP/thread for a while because I've been losing to Time's 3gate pressure build every time we've done it which has shaken my confidence greatly. Turns out it is more of a coinflip than I had originally thought; This build is not so bad against blink builds and will only get much stronger against them after the patch, so I have hope yet; also I think that with blink builds being less common post patch, we will see more stargate builds which also makes this stronger. IDK yet, though.
On September 21 2011 05:12 Alejandrisha wrote: Yeah I haven't been updating this OP/thread for a while because I've been losing to Time's 3gate pressure build every time we've done it which has shaken my confidence greatly. Turns out it is more of a coinflip than I had originally thought; This build is not so bad against blink builds and will only get much stronger against them after the patch, so I have hope yet; also I think that with blink builds being less common post patch, we will see more stargate builds which also makes this stronger. IDK yet, though.
Care to elaborate or have some replays to share? Curious what exactly it is about 3-gate pressure that is breaking you.
Thank you so much for this and i will be trying it out soon. Though right now some many people are just being so greedy that many times i can just 4 gate and win. Currently I am doing what I call the TL or Hero PvP which is the 3(or 4) gate blink robo build. But I am glad that with this I will have a little more freedom to do other things cause I have been doing the same build in PvP for like 2 months now and want something new.
P.S. Thanks Alejandrisha for all the help you give the Toss community I greatly appreciate it. Cecil you also
On September 21 2011 05:12 Alejandrisha wrote: Yeah I haven't been updating this OP/thread for a while because I've been losing to Time's 3gate pressure build every time we've done it which has shaken my confidence greatly. Turns out it is more of a coinflip than I had originally thought; This build is not so bad against blink builds and will only get much stronger against them after the patch, so I have hope yet; also I think that with blink builds being less common post patch, we will see more stargate builds which also makes this stronger. IDK yet, though.
Care to elaborate or have some replays to share? Curious what exactly it is about 3-gate pressure that is breaking you.
Comes at 4gate timing but instead of getting 3 more gates you get 2 more gates, a gas and a faster 3rd pylon in your base.. though I'm not 100% sure how I feel about where/when the 3rd pylon should go.
How does this face up against a 3 stalker opening into anything aggressive (blink or 4g specifically)? Seems like you're forcing them into a defensive posture with your early zealot/probe/stalker move-out, but the 3 stalker opening is designed to kill this early move-out and even if you skip probes 21 and 22 to get the 2nd stalker, 3 stalkers will still win against 2 stalkers and 1 zealot.
On September 21 2011 06:15 the p00n wrote: How does this face up against a 3 stalker opening into anything aggressive (blink or 4g specifically)? Seems like you're forcing them into a defensive posture with your early zealot/probe/stalker move-out, but the 3 stalker opening is designed to kill this early move-out and even if you skip probes 21 and 22 to get the 2nd stalker, 3 stalkers will still win against 2 stalkers and 1 zealot.
Yeah I like this vs a 3 stalker rush because you can repel all three with warpin before they get to your ramp and the only way they would push the issue is if they were 4 gating behind it and this build will net you enough to units to at least fight to force a farther proxy pylon. Since you can scout 3 stalker rush before your probe leaves, you should be very hesitant as to how far you send your initial zealot as it's going to die no matter what if he catches them in the middle of the map which usually leads to them being a bit more aggressive with those stalkers, at least in a scouting sense.
Nice guide, exciting stuff! Tried this three times on Xel´Naga. You were right in saying that a Blink push is very hard to defend, especially on a map like that. I lost all three games, but it was very close. I dont think it was the strat that made me lose but rather my execution.
Interesting, with the new patch 4 gate will happen a lot less, but immo busts will also be slightly more effective/common. I still like to do a Huk PvT 23 food expo (I get stalker before nexus, 5 stalkers at 5:40) but ninja the nexus, put on decent pressure with 5 stalkers before or at the standard 4 gate timing... Good stuffs :D
Defiantly looking to try more FE style builds with this new patch.
On September 21 2011 19:25 Lobber wrote: I still like to do a Huk PvT 23 food expo.
Are you talking about his 20 food PvT expo version he did for quite a while (lately i've seen him switch it up a bit because 2rax mit scvs + bunkers had been troublesome partly). So you get a nexus, 3 more gates, all cb on nexus and then warp in 4 more stalkers making it 5 at the 5:40min mark? Why is it 23 food, what is the 21st probe for? (I assume one to start ninja expo, 16 on minerals, 3 on gas and one to fake push to xel nagas/his base to fake a 4gate on your own).
On September 21 2011 19:25 Lobber wrote: I still like to do a Huk PvT 23 food expo.
Are you talking about his 20 food PvT expo version he did for quite a while (lately i've seen him switch it up a bit because 2rax mit scvs + bunkers had been troublesome partly). So you get a nexus, 3 more gates, all cb on nexus and then warp in 4 more stalkers making it 5 at the 5:40min mark? Why is it 23 food, what is the 21st probe for? (I assume one to start ninja expo, 16 on minerals, 3 on gas and one to fake push to xel nagas/his base to fake a 4gate on your own).
Huh? No, probe to 21, stalker on 21, nexus on 23, 2 gates on 23, stalker on 23, another probe, a proxy pylon and an inbase pylon (really only need one or the other, but if the proxy gets sniped or has to be cancelled it's bad to be so supply blocked.
LOL. Just did this and my opponent went phoenix!!! But he didn't rage quit like the person vs you. He tried to see if he could win. Sorry for him =X. Nice guide.
High master. 1300+ points, done it a couple times so far and I like it. Basically the same as a build I used to do, except I used to fake the 4 gate, get forge+ cannon, then expo...
3 replays Not scouted, huge army, ez win PVP fe 1 4 gated, I cancel, win PvPfe2 4 gated, I don't cancel, I win. PvPfe3
On September 22 2011 15:17 Contractor wrote: LOL. Just did this and my opponent went phoenix!!! But he didn't rage quit like the person vs you. He tried to see if he could win. Sorry for him =X. Nice guide.
Good to hear
I feel that this patch will favor robo openings which will in turn make blink openers and blink rushers weaker, which inherently makes stargate openings stronger and more appealing. The more appealing stargate openers become, the better this strategy becomes in the blind coinflipping of builds.. so long as it doesn't get scouted too early
On September 22 2011 15:49 TyrantPotato wrote: brilliant guide thank you.
however i recommend as you get more replays and what not. you clean up the guide a bit more.
make it a bit easier to follow structrue it better. (by that i mean the random bold parts distract from some of what is being said.
other then that thank you very much
I've found the bold text helps break away from the bland wall of text style I'm afraid of showing.. it's all for you guys so if people don't like it, it doesn't need to be there
I will continue to re-tool it with the new patch; I haven't been using it recently and have been trying out some other things but I will definitely start using it again.
CreatorPRIME uses a 1 gate expand in response to a gas steal against ST Ace. Granted Ace played pretty badly, but it's cool to see this build in use in a televised game.
On September 22 2011 19:11 RisingTide wrote: GSTL Spoilers + Show Spoiler +
CreatorPRIME uses a 1 gate expand in response to a gas steal against ST Ace. Granted Ace played pretty badly, but it's cool to see this build in use in a televised game.
Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention! I love moletrap's quote "I wonder if he was trying to make it look like he was 4gating!" after suiciding his probe stalker zealot up the ramp haha.
Well, Creator gets way far ahead when he sees the delayed gates at the ramp AND the sentry meaning he can do w/e the hell he wants. That kind of information is HUGE when doing this build. However, he still should have kept stalkers out by his 2nd ramp to prevent the probe scout at 6:00. It might tip your expo, but it also might just look like you're going for a defensive posture and waiting on blink, though it might not be as convincing after you get your gas stolen.
You'll see that Creator adds a pylon before the nexus because he felt safe enough to add more probes after 26 food and before the nexus because of the information he got with his zealot stalker poke.
That probe scout actually came all the way from Ace's base and there is no reason not to keep stalkers outside his base at that timing as there is no way Ace can have blink.
The game pretty much ended when the DTs did no damage but Creator was playing pretty greedy having not seen an expansion from ace and going up to 40 probes, anyway. Ideally I think Ace needed to expand either when he saw the expansion or when the dts did no damage and still go for charge but not warp in any more DTs for archons until he got his expo up or if Creator was attacking and he had extra gas.
On September 22 2011 19:11 RisingTide wrote: GSTL Spoilers + Show Spoiler +
CreatorPRIME uses a 1 gate expand in response to a gas steal against ST Ace. Granted Ace played pretty badly, but it's cool to see this build in use in a televised game.
Yeah I've found expanding as a response to a gas steal to be pretty good since usually your opponent does it with the intention to be ahead on gas (and thus tech) and/or force a 4-gate reaction that they are prepared for. This means he is likely to get his 2nd gas himself and is actually 150 minerals behind you (plus the fact probes will be mining gas instead of minerals) and this allows you to safely get your expo up.
thanks for this guide! playing random race, i ve been having some probs with protoss lately not going for 4gate anymore and this is a very nice practice build. still im missing an answer to the dt rush. maybe its just because of me playing in diamond but why wouldnt a master protoss play a greedy dt rush build in pvp?
Hey Alej, any chance you could write some sort of primer on post-patch PvP? I (hope) it's not just me that's having a lot of trouble right now trying to figure out how to play the matchup when 4gate can't kill you on one base.
On September 23 2011 06:52 Ruscour wrote: Hey Alej, any chance you could write some sort of primer on post-patch PvP? I (hope) it's not just me that's having a lot of trouble right now trying to figure out how to play the matchup when 4gate can't kill you on one base.
Haha I wish I could help you out right now. I'm still trying to figure it out myself at the moment. It will be a while til I can figure out a new style that harnesses the power of the new anti-blink immortal without being too safe (and thus not greedy). Robo builds that cut colossus to attack when they scout you 1gate fe are stronger now so it's another thing that it used to lolol all over that you really have to take seriously now. I'll update OP or make another guide when I find what I'm looking for. Sorry!
I played twice against this today while going robo. You have to remember that since it's easier to defend 4 gate, robo builds are now more efficient. In both games, I responded by counter-expanding while pressing my tech advantage for free kills that more than made up for his econ advantage with the earlier nexus.
Not saying that 2 games means much, but it's worth remembering that robo openings are stronger now.
On September 24 2011 05:07 kcdc wrote: I played twice against this today while going robo. You have to remember that since it's easier to defend 4 gate, robo builds are now more efficient. In both games, I responded by counter-expanding while pressing my tech advantage for free kills that more than made up for his econ advantage with the earlier nexus.
Not saying that 2 games means much, but it's worth remembering that robo openings are stronger now.
depends on what the other protoss gets. If he's making a good number of stalkers, yes your immortal army will allow you to do damage and get free kills. But if he's just massing zealots with sentries, i don't see you doing that much damage to him
if i'm playing defensive (like after expanding) and i see the other protoss has immortal tech and will likely be aggressive, my reaction would not be... "make stalkers."
anyways regarding 1gate expo, it is viable vs anything non "balls" 4-gate. I remember before balls 4-gate became popular it was mainly Minigun that would do the 1gate expo vs me. I also remember a game vs Whiplash where we both went 1gate expo and we just turtled until we were both 200/200 lol
On September 24 2011 05:07 kcdc wrote: I played twice against this today while going robo. You have to remember that since it's easier to defend 4 gate, robo builds are now more efficient. In both games, I responded by counter-expanding while pressing my tech advantage for free kills that more than made up for his econ advantage with the earlier nexus.
Not saying that 2 games means much, but it's worth remembering that robo openings are stronger now.
depends on what the other protoss gets. If he's making a good number of stalkers, yes your immortal army will allow you to do damage and get free kills. But if he's just massing zealots with sentries, i don't see you doing that much damage to him
if i'm playing defensive (like after expanding) and i see the other protoss has immortal tech and will likely be aggressive, my reaction would not be... "make stalkers."
anyways regarding 1gate expo, it is viable vs anything non "balls" 4-gate. I remember before balls 4-gate became popular it was mainly Minigun that would do the 1gate expo vs me. I also remember a game vs Whiplash where we both went 1gate expo and we just turtled until we were both 200/200 lol
I teched straight to colossi off of 2 gates and abused FF's + burst damage to score free kills before he had any way to deal with the FF's. Not saying it will always work like that. But more efficient robo openings will be something to watch for after 1.4.
On September 24 2011 05:07 kcdc wrote: I played twice against this today while going robo. You have to remember that since it's easier to defend 4 gate, robo builds are now more efficient. In both games, I responded by counter-expanding while pressing my tech advantage for free kills that more than made up for his econ advantage with the earlier nexus.
Not saying that 2 games means much, but it's worth remembering that robo openings are stronger now.
depends on what the other protoss gets. If he's making a good number of stalkers, yes your immortal army will allow you to do damage and get free kills. But if he's just massing zealots with sentries, i don't see you doing that much damage to him
if i'm playing defensive (like after expanding) and i see the other protoss has immortal tech and will likely be aggressive, my reaction would not be... "make stalkers."
anyways regarding 1gate expo, it is viable vs anything non "balls" 4-gate. I remember before balls 4-gate became popular it was mainly Minigun that would do the 1gate expo vs me. I also remember a game vs Whiplash where we both went 1gate expo and we just turtled until we were both 200/200 lol
I teched straight to colossi off of 2 gates and abused FF's + burst damage to score free kills before he had any way to deal with the FF's. Not saying it will always work like that. But more efficient robo openings will be something to watch for after 1.4.
This is true. The way I would deal with 1 base robo pre patch would be to harass extensively with blink and really get in his face when he would try to move out for his timing and I could delay the push up to 3-4 minutes. With the stronger immortal, you really can't harass the push indefinitely if they keep the immortal in front without taking a decent amount of damage (and of course you're not able to do as much free damage per blink away)
On October 01 2011 12:10 Sm0reS wrote: Hey I keep losing to 1 base robo immortal timing attacks. I'm going blink but it's never finished in time.
This build with Blink Stalkers can't hold 1 base immortal builds post 1.4. Just ask kcdc.
Even if the expander has Blink - if the attacker has enough Immortals, he can roll it over. Sentry synergy with the Immortals works quite nice here too, to stop Zealots and force Blink Stalkers to retreat Blink.
If you know this is coming as the expander, I'd try to get a heavier Zealot composition, maybe even Charge.
Kcdc did this for me so I just reactively hard countered the build by going two Robos on one base and chronoed lots of Immortals out, won easily and lol'ed at the glory of 1.4 Immortals.
EPT
