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----------Roach/speedling aggression----------
Hello TL I havn’t been posting in a while so I decided to write a few mini-guides(more to come) about various strategies I use from time to time. I hope the [G] tag is alright even though there won’t be a comprehensive guide of a whole match-up but more of a walkthrough and discussion of a build.
For those interested here is a short description of my approach and structure to the guide:
+ Show Spoiler +
Introduction
Here I will shortly introduce the strategy and maybe metion some strengths and weaknesses.
Build order guidelines
Here there will be fairly precise build orders in code tags, but as a zerg player you can’t have a perfect build order since you always have to react to your opponent.
Conclusions and discussion
More discussions about strategy like variations(more or less drones), maps, opponents builds etc. etc.
Replays
Replays showing the strategy.
Introduction
This strategy has been around for some time now and was popularized in the GSL(can’t remember which one). It was designed as counter to the 3 gate expand and it can be incredibly strong against that. The beauty of the strategy is that it can both be an all-in or just aggression while you’re taking your third. Even though roach/speedling aggression does very well against 1-3 gate sentry expand, it’s weaker against stargate and especially dt expands.
Build order guidelines
14 gas
14 pool
16 overlord
16 queen
@100gas zergling speed and remove drones from gas
18 zergling
19 zergling
20 hatchery
Start your second queen when the first one finishes
Put down a creep tumor with your second queen and walk down to your expansion
Put 3 drones back in gas just before your first inject pops(~4.35)
Start roach warren slightly after first inject pops(~5.10)
Drones -> ~32-34 in food(28-30drones)
Overlords -> 52 supply(+3 overlords)
32-34 7-8 roaches
Reinforce with speedlings and make overlords
Conclusions and discussion
Some thoughts and discussion about the strategy.
How economic?
As previously stated this build can both be played as more of an all-in or just aggression and this can be done with small subtle changes and a big one. To play it in a more economic fashion you can choose to put drones back in gas later and go for 6 roaches instead of 8 which will give opportunity to also build up to 30-31 drones instead of 28-29. The big change is how many speedlings you choose to reinforce your roaches with before you start droneing again, the fewer lings the more economic but then you also run the risk of not being able to do any damage at all.
When to use the build
I prefer to open gas-less expands on maps where toss usually goes for ffe(e.g. Tal’darim and Shakuras) and then you can’t follow up with this build. The maps it’s best on are maps with open naturals like xel’naga and typhoon peaks where your roaches can hit alot of buildings and toss needs more forcefields than normal. However it also works very well on maps likes shattered temple if toss is opening with a 3gate sentry expand.
What your opponent can throw at you and how to deal with it
When you scout toss with your first lings(or a drone) and see a normal one-base build there are a few builds you can expect from the toss player. It’s alot easier to react accordingly if you can figure out what the toss is doing and this strategy does pretty well against all the options.
Dt expand
This build is probably the biggest threat to roach/speedling aggression because their dts will move out at about the same time as you are send your army to his base. The problem with this is that you won’t have any detection(no lair, or spore). So to be safe while going for this roach/speedling attack is to get up an evo chamber and a spore timed to about the same time you are moving out(slighty before ~7.00).
There are a few tells of a dt expand though, the toss expansion will go up later(~6.30-7.00), he will have fewer sentries and if you drones scout you might see and earlier second gas. All of these tells can be faked though, but you probably won’t need that spore if you see alot of sentries.
Stargate expand
This opening has similar tells to a dt(gas going to something other than sentries) one but is alot more forgiving to miss. That is because of a few different things;
1. Your opponent will have alot smaller army than because he’s relying on map control of his air units. That means your army will be able to deny/kill his expansion before his air unit(s) can kill it.
2. His void ray will probably be on it’s way to your base while you are on your way to the toss base. That mean your opponent has to turn around to defend or risk losing more thant just the expansion, this gives you the time to get and extra queen and a spore or two.
3. With the knowledge that he went for air and did no damage while you denied his expansion you can safely drone.
All this means that you are still in a pretty good position even if your roaches and ling can’t touch his void rays.
4gate
With this strategy in mind you’re pretty well set up defend any sort of delayed 4gate(2gas) with the roach warren timing and for the quickest 4gate you’ll need to stop droneing sooner and build spines/lings. I won’t go into more detail about defending 4gate since there are some other excellent threads here on tl about that.
3gate sentry expand
This is where roach/speedling aggression shines but with good forcefields and canon placement you can still end up on the losing side. The important part in the engagement is try to bait forcefields and take out buildings when the choke is forcefielded. Be careful with your roaches you only have a limited amount and they can shoot on buildings from out of range of the toss and if the opportunity presents itself try to get a surround with your lings on the sentries then move in with your roaches. It’s also easy to get caught up in that you need to win with attack, but it’s really important that you still inject, macro and keep going forward with a planned follow-up.
Replays
Vandroy vs iesRavage - Stargate expand
Vandroy vs Strange - 3gate sentry expand
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So you don't build a second hatch, right? Seems really all in.
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On August 25 2011 04:36 kushm4sta wrote:
So you don't build a second hatch, right? Seems really all in.
Yeah I do must have missed it ops : )
edit: it's like a normal speedling expand.
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After you get the 200 gas for your 8 roaches I usually stop mining gas and go half drone/half ling. But this build is very very strong and if you ever get close pos I would reccomend every zerg doing this.
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Very nicely written guide! Such a breather from those annoying threads opened lately with those damn spoiler tags. Looks like a simple opening that will win you a lot of games unless the Protoss player has decent FF usage, and should probably have a cannon too. Will kill many a greedy Protoss on ladder. Edit: I would assume this meant for close positions? Obviously it will be weaker and weaker the longer you have to run those roaches.
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On August 25 2011 04:46 CecilSunkure wrote:
Very nicely written guide! Such a breather from those annoying threads opened lately with those damn spoiler tags. Looks like a simple opening that will win you a lot of games unless the Protoss player has decent FF usage, and should probably have a cannon too. Will kill many a greedy Protoss on ladder. Edit: I would assume this meant for close positions? Obviously it will be weaker and weaker the longer you have to run those roaches.
thanks, well it's works pretty good on other positions too, but yeah ofcourse the closer you get the better.
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Me like! GJ as always Vandroy! waii to go!
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Thanks, recently swapped to Z and have been looking for bo for this
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Aight, played 2 matches with it (2-0)! worked amazing! creds!
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Thanks for the build, seems obviously strong versus 3 gate expand.
Could this build work against FFE ?
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On August 25 2011 06:09 skinky wrote:
Aight, played 2 matches with it (2-0)! worked amazing! creds!
like you didn't teach him this lol
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On August 25 2011 06:19 Lasbike wrote:
Thanks for the build, seems obviously strong versus 3 gate expand.
Could this build work against FFE ?
Not really, unless the Toss messes up his wall in. He'll have at least 1 sentry out by the time your Ling/Roach aggression hits, and will just FF you, let his cannon score some hits, warp in units, and either crush you or force you to run away.
Then you're behind in economy big time and 6 gate kills you.
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Thanks for posting this - it fills a gap (maybe this could go on Liquipedia after people have had time to critique it?) I have been looking for a discussion of this ever since seeing dave333 advocate it as a way to punish greedy 3 gate expands (no/few cannons). His posts on the subject are somewhat hard to find using search though. Nice to see the timings laid out.
It seems to be a fairly standard speedling expand up to the point where you start making units, so I imagine it would be easy to transition into this build or out of it until then based on scouting info.
I have made a few attempts at this myself, some quite successful and some unsuccessful to the point of losing me the game outright. My biggest issue seems to be missing the timing, due to droning too much or waiting for one more round of larvae before I push out. The last one I tried hit around 10:00 which I suspect is way late (and I had more roaches than I should have). Micro and engagements during the attack also seem to make a big difference, and you can easily lose most of your force for very little return if you get FFed in a bad spot (choke points are bad). I will take a look at your replays to see how you manage it.
With 30 drones you will have excess minerals if you reinforce with just lings off 2 hatches. Dave333 recommended using these to start another expo behind the push. Do you agree?
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On August 25 2011 06:19 Lasbike wrote:
Thanks for the build, seems obviously strong versus 3 gate expand.
Could this build work against FFE ?
It's a really good way to punish people who FFE on maps that aren't good for it, from my experience. Typhon requires a very difficult wall, as does backwater, and Tosses who FFE there usually can be broken with this build. Otherwise not really.
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On August 25 2011 10:57 Chutoro wrote:
Thanks for posting this - it fills a gap (maybe this could go on Liquipedia after people have had time to critique it?) I have been looking for a discussion of this ever since seeing dave333 advocate it as a way to punish greedy 3 gate expands (no/few cannons). His posts on the subject are somewhat hard to find using search though. Nice to see the timings laid out.
It seems to be a fairly standard speedling expand up to the point where you start making units, so I imagine it would be easy to transition into this build or out of it until then based on scouting info.
Yeah exactly it's your standard speedling expand so you can choose to go with this build if the scouting points to it being good, and it will also look like the standard opening from the toss point of view.
On August 25 2011 10:57 Chutoro wrote:
I have made a few attempts at this myself, some quite successful and some unsuccessful to the point of losing me the game outright. My biggest issue seems to be missing the timing, due to droning too much or waiting for one more round of larvae before I push out. The last one I tried hit around 10:00 which I suspect is way late (and I had more roaches than I should have). Micro and engagements during the attack also seem to make a big difference, and you can easily lose most of your force for very little return if you get FFed in a bad spot (choke points are bad). I will take a look at your replays to see how you manage it.
The timings can be tricky sometimes but it can help to keep track of them by keeping track of your injects at your main hatch. E.g. you put drones back on gas right before your first inject pops and start the roch warren slightly after. The third inject popping from your main hatch should be the one used to make roaches and then march those roaches straight to your opponent.
On August 25 2011 10:57 Chutoro wrote:
With 30 drones you will have excess minerals if you reinforce with just lings off 2 hatches. Dave333 recommended using these to start another expo behind the push. Do you agree?
Well it depends on if you keep drones in gas after you've mined enough for roaches. Some people like to take them off to get a third and be able to drone better. You can also keep them in and get a lair asap so you can get roach speed and stuff like that. I would say it depends on spawning pos and map, for cross it might be better to aim for a third and vice versa with close pos.
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I'm bumping this thread to question the viability of this kind of build versus a 1-gate expand, that seems to be the new standard of gateway opening in PvZ.
-Is the Roach/Speedling aggression viable versus this opening?
-Do you see any adaptation that are worth mentionning (a small number of speedlings early on to deter agression?)
-If Roach/Ling aggression is not the answer, how would you suggest reacting to a 1-gate expand in order to keep the protoss on his toes?
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On October 26 2011 22:48 Ahelvin wrote:
I'm bumping this thread to question the viability of this kind of build versus a 1-gate expand, that seems to be the new standard of gateway opening in PvZ.
-Is the Roach/Speedling aggression viable versus this opening?
-Do you see any adaptation that are worth mentionning (a small number of speedlings early on to deter agression?)
-If Roach/Ling aggression is not the answer, how would you suggest reacting to a 1-gate expand in order to keep the protoss on his toes?
I think it works fine against a one gate expo, have you tried it yet?
i have tried it a few times and it has worked quite well, although im pretty sure most P still FFE nowadays
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On October 26 2011 22:50 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 22:48 Ahelvin wrote:
I'm bumping this thread to question the viability of this kind of build versus a 1-gate expand, that seems to be the new standard of gateway opening in PvZ.
-Is the Roach/Speedling aggression viable versus this opening?
-Do you see any adaptation that are worth mentionning (a small number of speedlings early on to deter agression?)
-If Roach/Ling aggression is not the answer, how would you suggest reacting to a 1-gate expand in order to keep the protoss on his toes? I think it works fine against a one gate expo, have you tried it yet? i have tried it a few times and it has worked quite well, although im pretty sure most P still FFE nowadays
I don't value my opinion or what I'm experiencing in game that much : I'm a newb platinum player, so what I am doing is not relevant. That's why I was asking for better player's opinion on this : I prefer working on "pro approved builds" since I'm less likely to hit a wall when I'll move in upper league  .
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Against a 1 gate expand, this will work if he doesn't go stargate. Some do 1 gate, expand, add 2gates+stargate, and chrono VR. once that comes out your aggression is over, and you're surely behind if you didn't do any damage.
it's a coin flip, just like most all ins.
EDIT: versus 1 gate expand, i just do what I do versus FFE. I make an expo at ~30 food (after I make the first inject all drones, you should have enough for an expo with no larvae left). Make evo ~6:30 just in case of stargates/dts. i also suggest making a round of speedlings with like the third or inject just so he won't kill you with like 1 zealot 4 sentries versus your 4 zerglings. lol
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On October 26 2011 23:07 Buruguduy wrote:
Against a 1 gate expand, this will work if he doesn't go stargate. Some do 1 gate, expand, add 2gates+stargate, and chrono VR. once that comes out your aggression is over, and you're surely behind if you didn't do any damage.
it's a coin flip, just like most all ins.
EDIT: versus 1 gate expand, i just do what I do versus FFE. I make an expo at ~30 food (after I make the first inject all drones, you should have enough for an expo with no larvae left). Make evo ~6:30 just in case of stargates/dts. i also suggest making a round of speedlings with like the third or inject just so he won't kill you with like 1 zealot 4 sentries versus your 4 zerglings. lol
Isn't it a bit risky since the protoss tech is not as much delayed as compared to a FFE?
Do you have a typical timing for a 2-base timing push?
I'm asking a lot of question, but I'm a bit puzzled when facing this build. I'm comfortable with FFE, but 1-gateway expand... Not so much.
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Nice guide. I usually do a very similar build I've seen LosirA doing, well it'ss basicly the same.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217419
I've found that vs a 3gate expand on wide natural maps, the only way for the toss to come out ahead is to make 4 or 5 sentries and forcefield good. If he goes greedy with his gas and goes into tech, this will most certainly get you significantly ahead.
It's important to know that after you have made like 30 speedlings you must start droning behind it to get ahead.
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also you forgot to include the second queen in your BO so it looks like you are doing this off 1 queen? Maybe that's part of the build but it seems wrong.
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Hi Ahelvin, I have hardly played this build as of late mostly because I'm exploring some other options(I still keep it in my backpocket though!). When I played it was mostly against 3gate sentry expand so I'm not sure about 1-gate expands but I think it is still viable.
You still run the risks of encountering dts and void rays just abit earlier but I can play around with it some more and see how it works against 1gate expands.
If you don't want to use this build(against 1gate expand) then I'd go for that pretty fast third as Buruguduy suggested but start taking gas earlier than you'd take it against a ffe. You also have to be more on your toes with the zergling pokes at the front and your overlord sacrifice to see if he's going for stargate, some 4-5 wargate aggression or something else, from there it's like a normal game scout and react.
On October 28 2011 22:32 kushm4sta wrote:
also you forgot to include the second queen in your BO so it looks like you are doing this off 1 queen? Maybe that's part of the build but it seems wrong.
Yeah sorry about that I will add it, forgot that hatch at 20 food also at first, it was very obvious in my mind that it was a speedling expand but it might not have been that in the text. So yeah you start your queen at the same time your first one finishes.
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ahh thanks! my ZvP has been in dire need of a strong opening.... <3
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Shouldnt this work rather well versus a FFE with double stargate follow up?
From my offrace experience as protoss, you cant get double Stargate and Gateways at the same time without cutting probes, so they should be fairly vulnerable to this no? Especially since double Stargate doesnt leave much early gas for sentries.
Anyone has some experience with that?
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ive been doing somthing similar lately, and it really punishs greedy protoss, esp if they go forge nexus then cannon, thx for the refined build order
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2505/roachling.png)
