I wanted to put what i thought was my own type of build out to try and refine with the help from fellow players. I dont see hellion marauder all in much, but i see your point. And as far as muta timings that still seems early for mutas and the turrets r generally behind mineral lines.As far as 14/14 instead of 15/15 I just like the feel of it a little better. Those extra seconds can help stop a bunker rush with a 2 rax. Obviously this build will not be perfect for every situation. This was just a build I tried to explore for ladder purposes, and or tournament bo3s or bo5s that will give the terran that shock factor. As far as taking a third I have started to put it down as i am moving out. Maybe i should look into some early harass. If i did push a little early with maybe 6-7 what would that force him to make? Also this builds is almost 6 months old so take that into account also. But thanks for the feedback so far!

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

December 27 2011 17:38 GMT

#22

It just sounds like what you do with mass burrow tunnel roaches could be just as well accomplished with two burrowed banes in the right spot, no?

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

December 27 2011 17:45 GMT

#23

I dont think banes have the offensive capabilities that the roaches do. I have the ability to unburrow in his mineral line. Or if his ramp is weak i can unburrow kill his army then attack his production freely while streaming in more roaches. Burrowed banes could be a tech i choose to start when i move out with the roaches.

TigerGosu1

71 Posts

December 27 2011 18:15 GMT

#24

1) I don't agree that 14/14 feels better. You're sacrificing your econ for a sense of saftey. Proper control of about 8 drones will delay enough for lings, queen and 1 sunken to be put down. For a build focused on the mid-game, you can speed up that build a lot with an earlier focus on the econ.

2) You don't mention a drone scout at all in your build. What are you using to scout and when?

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

December 27 2011 18:18 GMT

#25

Also I have a replay pack for you guys if your interested.

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

December 27 2011 19:33 GMT

#26

I usually make 1 set of lings to scout front at around the 4 min mark then i pull them back and take the towers on the map.

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

December 27 2011 19:33 GMT

#27

But like i said i put this up to get input and things so maybe i will try it with 15/15

TigerGosu1

71 Posts

December 27 2011 19:42 GMT

#28

Don't take it in a negative way. I'm just trying to get you to justify the build or guide you into optimizing it.

I would suggest 15/15 with a drone scout on 13 on most map. Really getting that early information of terran going gas or not, can really allow some versatility in the build and cut down on a few things. It will also make it less all-inish and more macro-centric with a long-term game plan.

Felnarion

442 Posts

December 27 2011 21:36 GMT

#29

Something I think would be cool/effective but might be limited by the amount of gas/time you have here..

Burrowed banelings: Specifically, used in one of two ways. Either: Burrowing them in such a way that you use your burrowed roaches to pull the army out of position and into the banelings. For instance, he's pushing toward your base, you unburrow your roaches in his, and put baneling mines between his army and your army, so when he pulls back to defend, boom.

Alternatively, as defense in the event he panics and attempts a base trade.

Some things to take advantage of: If the Terran knows you have burrowed banelings AND burrowed roaches, it's going to illicit some responses: First, turrets, you'll force minerals out of him pretty easy on that front, near his base.

To move out, he either has to scan the entire way, or tech lab his starport and bring out a raven or two, probably followed up with Banshees

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

December 28 2011 04:34 GMT

#30

Those are usually the reactions I get with the ravens and mass turrets. I think burrowed banes are really good i just dont know if they would be cost effective if hes on the *look out* for burrowed units. I like to switch to muta play. If you watched the second replay I crippled him then went to the 3-4 base muta with roach play. Worked out quite well i think.

Slivered Skin

Canada347 Posts

December 28 2011 04:58 GMT

#31

I saw a build similar to this one from Slush during one of the past MLGs (tried to find which one, but there have been Slush vs Rain matches in no less than 3 MLGs and I don't want to watch all the replays). He went for a 2 base, double roach warren all-in against Rain (no upgrades), and it got absolutely crushed by Rain's stimmed marines, a full wall-off and a handy scan or two.

Having tried the build out myself against a few Terran players, it works if they don't have any kind of clue as to how to react, or if they're going very tech or econ-heavy. If they're gearing up for an early push and have good control/reaction time, though, I find that the build fails 4 times out of 5.

Niska

31 Posts

December 28 2011 05:04 GMT

#32

This is not like the ICE-FISHER build so please stop saying it is. A build order goes as far into supply as it needs to prove itself. Many build orders start the same but they differ in many ways.
This build can be good and with good scouting can work great. However if I see the terran with fast turrets, 1-1-1, or super turtle fast tank I usually stop and try to macro and go blings slings muta
roaches are good in base to stop drops at this point

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

December 28 2011 05:06 GMT

#33

well im glad youv tried it. I just finished a game not more then 5 minutes ago and the terran sieged outside my base with 3 tanks but could not get vision i bought more time by making a third and he went after that like a fish going for bait. It gave me enough time to tunnel under and destroy him without and effort then i can just 1a move to his base. But that of course is when the plan works out to its best.

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

January 03 2012 23:08 GMT

#34

I did this build and still held off a top masters marauder/hellion push. I will post the replay if anyone is interested.

Hjarnan

Sweden3 Posts

January 04 2012 02:21 GMT

#35

I am interested in the replay, I am also going to try this build on the ladder tomorrow. (Top Diamond if it matters).

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

January 04 2012 03:35 GMT

#36

pm me ur email or add me on b.net xOFirehawk 296

Hjarnan

Sweden3 Posts

January 04 2012 16:05 GMT

#37

Thanks for the replays

I am definitely going to try this out =) One thing that could be improved tho is the mineral spending, in your replays you're floating 1-2k minerals towards the end.

agahamsorr0w

Netherlands359 Posts

January 04 2012 16:10 GMT

#38

A well done tank marine push comes at 10, if not at 8. You are still using Ice fisher, so just call it that. Won't this win vs hellion marauder? That push comes with just 3 marauders and vs roaches hellions don't do that much.

Firehawk277

United States40 Posts

January 04 2012 16:49 GMT

#39

I doubt that a strong tank marine push can hit after opening with a few hellions. At least i have never seen one hit at 8 minutes. 10 minutes yes and i just played a game where i delayed the push as long as i could and managed to burrow under the tanks and snipe them, even after forgetting burrow for a few about 30 seconds. Then i killed his marines and went right into his base and won. As far as floating minerals yes I have been slacking in that area. I should have taken a third earlier and made some more drones when there was less gas.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16820
link 2 game i described above

Xanbatou

United States805 Posts

January 04 2012 18:45 GMT

#40

I've done something similar except instead of getting burrow and burrow movement, I get overlord speed and drop. This sort of roach play is only effective vs pure mech, as it allows you to get right under the tanks, which will be pretty much GG if you engage at his base. The problem with burrow is that if they see you getting roaches, one turret will pretty much shutdown all burrow shenanigans. One turret won't affect dropping though.

If they go marine/tank, they can pretty much just kill you. Marines by themselves destroy roaches if they stim/shield, and it will be worse if they have the support of tanks. You will be hard pressed to pick off tanks as the terran is moving across the map due to the ball effect, and once he gets close to your base and starts spreading out his tanks, he will start scanning for stuff anyway.

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