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Roach Burrow/Tunnel Build (possible all in)
Link to sc2replayed.com
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175047-2v2-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau
If you guys would like more examples id be happy to add more. I have about 20 replays as of now of this build working quite well.
Basically this build is designed exclusively for ZvT. I open with a no gas style open relying on spines and queens for early defense.
If you want to break it down
14 Hatch
14 Pool
16 Ovie
when pool pops
2 spines 2 queens
1 or 2 sets of zerglings for scout/ hold towers
Mass drones until about 44
When i take all 4 gysers I then make a wall at my front. Using a macro hatch as well as 2 evo chambers and a roach warren I burrow my 2 spines behind the font to stop any marine or hellion harass.
First 100 gas goes to lair/ usually at natural
Then with macro hatch and main i grab 2 extra queens and a spore at each min line if i scout banshee banshee.
Then build 4-6 roaches for basic defense
After this i grab 1-1 upgrades and mass roach until lair finishes
When lair pops i grab tunnel claws first then burrow 5 to 10 seconds later so that the two finish at the same time.
When massing roaches i set rally to each mineral line and front of my base. Because i am turtling i have my overlords spread on the rim of my base in all directions, so i can clearly see outside my base allowing me to spot any drops that may come after hellions are denied access through front.
With roaches and queens spread throughout the base I can easily deny any blue flame or marine drops.
When both upgrades are complete I should have 30-40 roaches that are 1-1 with burrow and tunnel.
I then throw down a 3rd and 2 gas. As well as get ling speed.
I rally my incoming roaches to the roaches on their way to the terrans main. When roaches get out of the base i burrow and have them follow the roaches already burrowed at his front.
If timing is done right and no major damage has been done the attack should hit between 11:30 and 12 minutes.Which is when a tank marine push is moving out.
There are 3 outcomes to the build.
1. I hit the terran as he is moving out, where i unburrow under tanks snipe then then marines fall to roaches and i rush front that has no defense with roaches coming in consistently.
2. Terran is still turtled but has no detection at front of natural. At this stage of the game terrans usually dont have detection at the front only 1 or maybe 2 at the back of mineral lines to stop muta harass.. So i can easily burrow under, snipe tanks then bunkers. This is the preferred outcome because he has no time to react to the lack of detection. And i can throw my roaches at him until he breaks.
3. He has scouted my tech and has a turret at the front. In this scenario I pull back and stop roach production. At this time my 3rd base is up and i can drop a spire and get more gas. I keep roaches burrowed and force him to either make ravens or scan as he moves out. This allows me time to mass up mutas. And with the extra minerals mass some lings. When the terran moves out ideally i have my roaches as well as a high number of mutas. I snipe tanks with the mutas as the roaches attack the marines. If the terran attacks the mutas the marines will be killed by the mass amount of roaches leaving the remaining mutas free to snipe the tanks. If the marines attack the roaches this allows the mutas to snipe the tanks leaving the marines vulnerable to the incoming roaches I am macroing.
Of course there will always be a chance of miss micro and bad timing where hellions sneak in or i miss a drop. But all in all i have found this build to be a well thought out and easy build to execute. Thanks for your time.
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Well, to be honest, this can't really be considered a 'new' build. It's extremely similar to Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher Build. Your build is really just deviating from Spanishiwa's after starting lair tech, in this case you've chosen to tech to burrowed roaches.
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Roach-burrow can really be hard countered by standard marine-tank as long as the terran has detection.
But the metagame has evolved and we see more and more hellion and mech play so this build might get decent result on ladder and can be useful in a BoX situation using the surprise effect.
A good follow up to the roach-burrow is drop play. Not dropping your full army but only 2-3 oves full of roaches in mineral lines can buy you a lot of time to saturate your third and transition into some other tech. And when the T army come back to clean up just burrow and spread your roaches, he will have to loose more money wasting some scans. Drop play can also be used for banes drop or drop an army on top of the tanks. A very good investment imo.
This build looks fun to use at least, will give it a try !
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well i think that this build will work well as long as his tank count isnt high for example if he goes for 3 rax 1 fac and adds 2 rax befor another factory or if he uses marine tank BHF, but if he play like thorzain and goes 3 rax 1 factoy and then adds another factory for more tanks befor more raxs this would have problems after all roaches are amazing against marines but high tank count is the thing to worry from
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I feel that just because he does not get gas and i do not get gas i shouldent be considered copying the build. My build is different because of overlord placement, blocking my front ramp, the unit i choose,the tech I use. My build is designed to punish a terran at a reasonably early time becuase he does not get detection. This build is more or less an all in. I will upload another replay showing the initial roach attack dealing alot of damage but not killing the terran. But to say im copying another persons build when my mindset is different as well as my units i think is unfair. There are only so many ways to start a game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/175073-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau
This game is where i grab more bases and tech to muta because I delt enough damage to where the terran has to recover and has no army to push out with. Just another thing that separates my build. Even if you do not enjoy my build this is a great replay. This is the tie breaker in round 1 of the geforce pro/am winners bracket.
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Yeah, I'd have to agree that while the idea is cool it is very all-in.
If I were you, I would build spire and rush hive while moving out. Obviously you'll have to cut a couple roaches but oh well, if situation 1 or 2 happen then you'll be ahead. Otherwise, if he has detection, rush to BLs while trying not to let him see the spire. If one is an all-in player, I feel like a followup timing is good to have in case it fails. In that case you can probably slow down the push greatly, while keeping him on 2 bases. BLs will be almost impossible to deal with if you rush to them off of your 5th and 6th gas. Once you have a few, push and expo to more bases and geysers and make a sort of ZvP style army (roach/BL/corruptor/eventally infestors)obviously its risky but its also your best chance to salvage a game, other than maybe a clutch nydus
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note: This might come out as negative and that's because it is.
As I frequently make a shit load of roaches in zvT I can tell you taht you will lose a bunch of your games to early mid-game pushes with this build and possibly fast helion drops.
THere are tight timings that you cant cut corners with. delaying your gas that much, then getting 1-1, not to mention burrow...
You dont need tunneling claws that early, and you certainly dont need the 1-1, if any upgrades. The key thing you shoudl worry about is stopping that first push (Which by the way comes much sooner than 11-12mins ) and to do that you need to flank and cut off reinforcements. Use your burrowed roaches to cut off reinforcements while you build up a bigger force at your choke which should be under siege (no pun intended). If you deny reinforcements long enough you can crush his attacking force by sandwitching it and have a nice lead for the mid game.
Roach play is about map position and guerilla tactics and a solid transition into mid game as you cannot still have just roaches when medivacs roll out.
Yes, unburrowing 40 roaches under his moving army may seem cool, but its not realistic.
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I am a mid masters player (currently 43 with 300+ points, not that im the best but this build is being put up against master terran and i have a great ZvT win ratio atm with this build. This build is not for everyone, but i feel that any build could be hurt by BF drops. But as i stated in the build the roaches spread throughout the main should be able to easily stop any drops. Also if the terran goes hellion harass then their marine tank push does come around the time i stated above. I agree GleaM that maybe hive tech would be a good transition. So i will try to include that into more replays. But if you have burrow but no tunnel how can you push a turtled terran? Your roaches will try to attack then when u burrow he scans and kills everything. This build is suppose 2 be somthing different, that has a good timing to catch terrans off guard. Its not ment to be a perfect build to change the metagame.
I would like to include more replays but the new maps are not supported by sc2replayed any ideas?
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What do you think of the build now that hellion opening in the meta game is almost always *standard*
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On December 27 2011 15:17 Firehawk277 wrote:
What do you think of the build now that hellion opening in the meta game is almost always *standard*
'standard' would be like 4 hellions -> marine, tank... & against that this build would fail.
This isn't a new build... you're just using the ice fisher into burrowed roaches. Sure, you might do a few things that you've come up with but thats a style, not a build.
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Lol again with the me copying the ice fisher....like i said there are only so many ways to open. i dont see him sticking to 2 base. I dont see him blocking his ramp. The no gas is so i can get the spines queens and buildings up really fast.
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On December 27 2011 17:08 Firehawk277 wrote:
Lol again with the me copying the ice fisher....like i said there are only so many ways to open. i dont see him sticking to 2 base. I dont see him blocking his ramp. The no gas is so i can get the spines queens and buildings up really fast.
How does not expanding and blocking your ramp make it a 'new' build?
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On December 27 2011 17:08 Firehawk277 wrote:
Lol again with the me copying the ice fisher....like i said there are only so many ways to open. i dont see him sticking to 2 base. I dont see him blocking his ramp. The no gas is so i can get the spines queens and buildings up really fast.
Actually, he does stay on 2 bases for quite awhile. Only main difference I see, is that your build is an all-in. Also, I have watched many streams and alot of pro players (ex: violet) like to do mass roaches with burrowed and upgrades just for fun on ladder. So, nothing THAT new. One last thing, blocking your ramp (simcity) is nothing new for zerg.
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It's a good concept but you can develop the strategy further. The weakness in your build is that it lacks early game pressure and is too dependent on him doing what you want him to do. A second weakness is that your timing for the push is slightly slower than when Mutas would hit. Most will have some form of missile turret in their base if they are playing you blind.
A good opp would have scouted you, taken a 3rd and proceed to have a better econ + position before you could do your 11-12 minute surprise push to catch his push.
Have you thought about an early timing push with roach or roach/speedling at ~5:15? Transitioning into the burrowed roach to snipe his scv in both main and expo while you take a third at the ~8-9 min mark?
Also, why do you go for 14 hatch 14 pool instead of 15 hatch 15 pool?
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I don't see any way of holding a marauder hellion all in. Your building wall hinders you quite badly in this situation.
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First of all, there is nothing wrong with saying that your build opens like the Spanishiwa does. Its an opening! Big deal. What makes your build unique is the burrow roach timing, and thats the important part 
also, you say you take all 4 gasses, but then you say you throw down ur 2nd + 3rd gas after ur uprgrades are done.
Also, when do you take your third base?
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On December 28 2011 01:15 FindMuck wrote:First of all, there is nothing wrong with saying that your build opens like the Spanishiwa does. Its an opening! Big deal. What makes your build unique is the burrow roach timing, and thats the important part also, you say you take all 4 gasses, but then you say you throw down ur 2nd + 3rd gas after ur uprgrades are done. Also, when do you take your third base?
i expect he takes his third as he moves out with his roaches.
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Spanishiwa doesn't even open spanishiwa-style anymore. It's hardly worth it to call it that anymore, just say no gas opening.
Roaches are fine in ZvT but they cant beat marine/tank on their own. don't do a burrow roach all-in. Watch TLO, he mostly does big drops/nydus play with roaches (gets burrow, but not burrowed movement). logic is that overlord speed/drops/nydus are more utility than tunneling claws but accomplish the same thing (gets your roaches into the enemy base).
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you don't have much harass potential early game, so it leaves open the possibility of being down economically and inability to scout unit compositions
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I wanted to put what i thought was my own type of build out to try and refine with the help from fellow players. I dont see hellion marauder all in much, but i see your point. And as far as muta timings that still seems early for mutas and the turrets r generally behind mineral lines.As far as 14/14 instead of 15/15 I just like the feel of it a little better. Those extra seconds can help stop a bunker rush with a 2 rax. Obviously this build will not be perfect for every situation. This was just a build I tried to explore for ladder purposes, and or tournament bo3s or bo5s that will give the terran that shock factor. As far as taking a third I have started to put it down as i am moving out. Maybe i should look into some early harass. If i did push a little early with maybe 6-7 what would that force him to make? Also this builds is almost 6 months old so take that into account also. But thanks for the feedback so far!
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It just sounds like what you do with mass burrow tunnel roaches could be just as well accomplished with two burrowed banes in the right spot, no?
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I dont think banes have the offensive capabilities that the roaches do. I have the ability to unburrow in his mineral line. Or if his ramp is weak i can unburrow kill his army then attack his production freely while streaming in more roaches. Burrowed banes could be a tech i choose to start when i move out with the roaches.
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1) I don't agree that 14/14 feels better. You're sacrificing your econ for a sense of saftey. Proper control of about 8 drones will delay enough for lings, queen and 1 sunken to be put down. For a build focused on the mid-game, you can speed up that build a lot with an earlier focus on the econ.
2) You don't mention a drone scout at all in your build. What are you using to scout and when?
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Also I have a replay pack for you guys if your interested.
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I usually make 1 set of lings to scout front at around the 4 min mark then i pull them back and take the towers on the map.
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But like i said i put this up to get input and things so maybe i will try it with 15/15
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Don't take it in a negative way. I'm just trying to get you to justify the build or guide you into optimizing it.
I would suggest 15/15 with a drone scout on 13 on most map. Really getting that early information of terran going gas or not, can really allow some versatility in the build and cut down on a few things. It will also make it less all-inish and more macro-centric with a long-term game plan.
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Something I think would be cool/effective but might be limited by the amount of gas/time you have here..
Burrowed banelings: Specifically, used in one of two ways. Either: Burrowing them in such a way that you use your burrowed roaches to pull the army out of position and into the banelings. For instance, he's pushing toward your base, you unburrow your roaches in his, and put baneling mines between his army and your army, so when he pulls back to defend, boom.
Alternatively, as defense in the event he panics and attempts a base trade.
Some things to take advantage of: If the Terran knows you have burrowed banelings AND burrowed roaches, it's going to illicit some responses: First, turrets, you'll force minerals out of him pretty easy on that front, near his base.
To move out, he either has to scan the entire way, or tech lab his starport and bring out a raven or two, probably followed up with Banshees
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Those are usually the reactions I get with the ravens and mass turrets. I think burrowed banes are really good i just dont know if they would be cost effective if hes on the *look out* for burrowed units. I like to switch to muta play. If you watched the second replay I crippled him then went to the 3-4 base muta with roach play. Worked out quite well i think.
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I saw a build similar to this one from Slush during one of the past MLGs (tried to find which one, but there have been Slush vs Rain matches in no less than 3 MLGs and I don't want to watch all the replays). He went for a 2 base, double roach warren all-in against Rain (no upgrades), and it got absolutely crushed by Rain's stimmed marines, a full wall-off and a handy scan or two.
Having tried the build out myself against a few Terran players, it works if they don't have any kind of clue as to how to react, or if they're going very tech or econ-heavy. If they're gearing up for an early push and have good control/reaction time, though, I find that the build fails 4 times out of 5.
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This is not like the ICE-FISHER build so please stop saying it is. A build order goes as far into supply as it needs to prove itself. Many build orders start the same but they differ in many ways.
This build can be good and with good scouting can work great. However if I see the terran with fast turrets, 1-1-1, or super turtle fast tank I usually stop and try to macro and go blings slings muta
roaches are good in base to stop drops at this point
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well im glad youv tried it. I just finished a game not more then 5 minutes ago and the terran sieged outside my base with 3 tanks but could not get vision i bought more time by making a third and he went after that like a fish going for bait. It gave me enough time to tunnel under and destroy him without and effort then i can just 1a move to his base. But that of course is when the plan works out to its best.
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I did this build and still held off a top masters marauder/hellion push. I will post the replay if anyone is interested.
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I am interested in the replay, I am also going to try this build on the ladder tomorrow. (Top Diamond if it matters).
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pm me ur email or add me on b.net xOFirehawk 296
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Thanks for the replays  I am definitely going to try this out =) One thing that could be improved tho is the mineral spending, in your replays you're floating 1-2k minerals towards the end.
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A well done tank marine push comes at 10, if not at 8. You are still using Ice fisher, so just call it that. Won't this win vs hellion marauder? That push comes with just 3 marauders and vs roaches hellions don't do that much.
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I doubt that a strong tank marine push can hit after opening with a few hellions. At least i have never seen one hit at 8 minutes. 10 minutes yes and i just played a game where i delayed the push as long as i could and managed to burrow under the tanks and snipe them, even after forgetting burrow for a few about 30 seconds. Then i killed his marines and went right into his base and won. As far as floating minerals yes I have been slacking in that area. I should have taken a third earlier and made some more drones when there was less gas.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16820
link 2 game i described above
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I've done something similar except instead of getting burrow and burrow movement, I get overlord speed and drop. This sort of roach play is only effective vs pure mech, as it allows you to get right under the tanks, which will be pretty much GG if you engage at his base. The problem with burrow is that if they see you getting roaches, one turret will pretty much shutdown all burrow shenanigans. One turret won't affect dropping though.
If they go marine/tank, they can pretty much just kill you. Marines by themselves destroy roaches if they stim/shield, and it will be worse if they have the support of tanks. You will be hard pressed to pick off tanks as the terran is moving across the map due to the ball effect, and once he gets close to your base and starts spreading out his tanks, he will start scanning for stuff anyway.
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I gave examples if he had turrets. I pull back get my third up and running that i put down while i moved out and tech switch to mutas and banes with the roaches. If he moves out i can kills marines with banes because unless hes focus fireing the roaches will absorb the shots and the banes can move in and kill marines while the mutas finish tanks. I can delay his pushes in this manner untill i am on maybe 4 or 5 bases then go for infestor broodlords. Of course this is in a perfect world and under perfect conditions. This build is ment to be surprising and to throw a terran off his game in a bo3 or if your on ladder and get a good map like shakuras. This by all means is not a unstoppable build, every build has its flaws. But i feel that this build with what i feel is something more or less original weither or not you think I copied spanishiwas opening or not *which i have never watched his games i am more of a destiny stream watcher* it still brings a diff taste to roaches and ZvT.
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On January 05 2012 09:05 Firehawk277 wrote:
I gave examples if he had turrets. I pull back get my third up and running that i put down while i moved out and tech switch to mutas and banes with the roaches. If he moves out i can kills marines with banes because unless hes focus fireing the roaches will absorb the shots and the banes can move in and kill marines while the mutas finish tanks. I can delay his pushes in this manner untill i am on maybe 4 or 5 bases then go for infestor broodlords. Of course this is in a perfect world and under perfect conditions. This build is ment to be surprising and to throw a terran off his game in a bo3 or if your on ladder and get a good map like shakuras. This by all means is not a unstoppable build, every build has its flaws. But i feel that this build with what i feel is something more or less original weither or not you think I copied spanishiwas opening or not *which i have never watched his games i am more of a destiny stream watcher* it still brings a diff taste to roaches and ZvT.
Thanks for this build, i tried the same on a CG vs a diamond ( he was crappy with macro but decent micro) - the roach push fails tho as he scanned well. But i teched to banes and with good upgrades and macro beat him. The replay for those who wanna see is below
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248869
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I think, personally, you're using the Ice Fisher opening and then gearing up for a burrow-move Roach timing. While the opening has been popularized elsewhere, the timing can be claimed as uniquely yours
I like the idea, especially vs mass Hellion off 2 reactor factories. Thanks for posting the replays and I'll be sure to try this on ladder! My one question is how would you react to a 2 port Banshee opening? T has Banshees and could make a Raven the moment he sees the Burrow tech, so how do you deal with that or even a 1-1-1 kind of build?
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2 More replays, the first one i should have honestly lost but with the burrow and tunnel i was able to snipe tanks and rush to his base before he could react.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16932
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16931
The build says to put down the evo chambers rather early so if you see the banshees you can delay with the 3 queens while spores come up. Also with the macro hatch you can spawn 3 queens at the same time rather then just 2. With that you should be able to hold off most banshee pushes. As far as 1/1/1 I dont see it often. But with the macro hatch and the large amount of minerals, plus the spines at the front delaying and with some good scouting you can out macro the terran quite easily.
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If I can defend 15/15 hell even 16/16 with drones I see no reason to go 14/14 it just feels very bad.
At 11:30 terrans are pretty much knocking on your front door.
Also, I don't really see a purpose with this build at all. What can roaches do that helps you? Burrow roaches and hope to get a free win?
If terran gets an early 3rd, do you attack with roaches or harass with fewer mutas than usually? Or do you actually try to catch up after having spent mineral and gas on roaches just so you can defend yourself?
Roaches aren't that good vs bio tank :s
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with 1-1 roaches are very good...have you not watched any of the replays? After you snipe tanks the marines fall to roaches easily.
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On January 08 2012 12:03 Rosaria wrote:
If I can defend 15/15 hell even 16/16 with drones I see no reason to go 14/14 it just feels very bad.
You will never defend a well executed 11/11 or even 11/12 or 12/12 2 rax with 16/16, lol.
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just srsly zvt is one of the match ups you dont have to think too much about a buildorder... there arent alot of timings you have to care about.
just make sure you make a spine crawler at about 5:00 ( if you scout helions )
and if you do scout helions, make a second spine at 6:00 and some lings, than macro up, speed lair 1. upgrade, bling nest.
if you dont scout helions you just macro up and make as many lings as you need for defense ( vs 2 rax / 1 rax fe into mass raxes - 1. speed 2. bling nest )
but in gernal in zvt you dont have to rush for some things like it is in zvp...
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I agree ^, which is y i go 14/14 or 15 when i scout gas
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On August 12 2011 20:42 Nate.F wrote:
Well, to be honest, this can't really be considered a 'new' build. It's extremely similar to Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher Build. Your build is really just deviating from Spanishiwa's after starting lair tech, in this case you've chosen to tech to burrowed roaches.
This isn't Spanishiwa's build. A build is what you do from beginning to end. An opener is what gets you into the mid-game. Reactor Hellions is an opener. SK Terran is a style, but it can be a build if you list out the specific timings you need to follow and hit.
Builds can get as detailed as reaching tier 3 and 4+ bases (if it's a macro build). As far as I know, Ice Fisher is an opener that basically stops when you get a Lair (and a quick third?). If not, then it's a build that includes a quick third, Spire Tech (or the Infestor tech variation), and so on into Hive tech with Ultras and Broodlords.
So this IS a different build (can't say new because I'm sure burrowed Roach timings are something that have probably been tried during the beta).
As for the build itself, it feels VERY all-in-ish. It's similar to EG.Machine's old ZvP build. But he gets his Roaches out at about the 10 minute mark. He doesn't have 40 (which is totally overkill), but he has around 20-24, which is all you really need, since by then they shouldn't have all that much. Even if they rushed Tanks off of a standard Reactor Hellion expand opening, making only 2 Hellions (for some unknown reason), they should only have around 5 Tanks. And that's REALLY rushing it. Normally they should have around 3, maybe 4. The Marine/Tank push shouldn't come at the 11 or 12 minute mark. That's REALLY late unless they're doing some delayed, super push with Medivacs. To be honest, until recently, I've been practicing a Marine/Tank push that hits at like 8-9 minutes, and it kills many Zergs outright or does a ton of damage and allows me to safely take a third base since most Zergs expect a push at 10+ minutes. By the time Lings pop, I have 2 Bunkers and 2-3 Tanks set up outside your base with ~16 Marines. ~20 Roaches should be fine at the 10 minute mark, then you take a third while poking their front. If you see that they are vulnerable, you can simply reinforce with a ton of speedlings, which cause more problems than more Roaches if there are already Roaches in their base. Also, since you save your gas, you could spend that on your tech behind the pressure.
I would feel much safer with 40-50 Drones and 20 Roaches and poking than committing to 40 Roaches. Having +1/+1 is nice, but I'd also rather commit to just the armor upgrade, since I'd rather not use Roaches unless the Terran is going mech.
If you commit to 40 Roaches, you're very all in or you're praying to God that they attack you. In that case, you might as well just get Roach Speed instead and set up a surround on the Terran army before they push your third like DRG did to MMA on Antiga Shipyard.
And this won't work on a turtling Terran unless they've already taken a third base. By 11-12 minutes, they have a Depot wall defending the natural with a Bunker. There will be no reason for the Depots to be lowered unless he's moving out to push or take a third.
And for scenario 3, in what way does he scout your tech? If he sees you researching Tunneling Claws, 99% chance says he thinks it's Roach Speed if he's any good (and assuming you are any good). So chances are that for him to know exactly what you are doing, you have to reveal a relatively committed army and tech path to him, in which case pulling back and macroing ISN'T an option. He takes a third base, turtles, and kills you with a massive timing push.
It's a plausible build, but you're investing WAY too much into relying on a massive mistake or another from your opponent. Burrowed Banelings are a MUCH better investment. Hell, Speed Roaches are better. BUT, you can still try that Tunneling Claw poke and secure a third base, while still being reasonably ready for any upcoming pushes.
And I think someone did this build (or a similar concept) to me and died a very horrible death... I don't remember exactly how the game went, but it wasn't pleasant for him. He cried about Terran imbalance of course.
This is all just from a Terran perspective (with some past Zerg experience). In ZvP, you can be closer in worker counts than in ZvT, which is why a similar build worked so damn well for me in ZvP (until FFE became standard and the build became outdated). In ZvT, you have to account for MULEs, which are like 6 workers? So on 2 base, Terran has about +12 workers mining minerals. So with 44 workers, you're equivalent to 32 SCVs just to be even (which is still not good)... If Terran has 32 SCVs at the 11-12 minute mark, then they aren't Master's level, they hard cut SCVs for a push, or you did some serious damage somewhere. Basically your Roach push would have to do serious damage or else you lose the game in one horrible way or another.
And Marines with Stim are pretty good against Roaches... If your Roaches are spending time killing Tanks, the stimmed Marines are spending equal amounts of time mowing down Roaches. And all you really need in the end of a battle is the Marine count.
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There are a ton of aggressive zerg openings that count on Terran moving out too early or being too greedy, between this and Tangs various roach-ling allins. They've beaten me a good amount of times, just because I'm so unused to them and in small numbers my marines with stim/shield/medivacs were losing fights to roaches (I kept moving out with groups too small because I thought my marines would win cause roaches suck instead of building up a big enough number). But after every game I can't help but feel if I just was more patient and massed up troops and then took a 3rd, you'd be stuck with money and supply invested in useless units.
That said, roach baneling midgames are pretty strong. And I hate doing 8-9 minute pushes cause mass ling just demolishes you horribly.
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I'm always smiling when my zerg opp goes roaches, basically a free win (unless it's an early allin)
Scenario 1 is just gimicky, you need to get lucky to catch the T moving out and not paying attention.
2 is unlikely, because a proper T will have scouting info on you and also very likely a full wall anyway.
Lastly 3, you are simply far behind if you do this (if the T can macro a bit).
I think the only reason this may seem successful for you atm is because a lot of T's do some crappy blind allins and if you kill the first tanks you win.
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If you guys could take the time to watch some of the replays, and tell me what the terrans are doing that is not standard or what they are doing that is a mistake i would really like to know. So far this build has a 75% win/rate for me and thats being modest. It catches ALOT of terrans off guard I am a 500+ point zerg right now facing some top terrans, this is not a low diamond or high plat player that has room for mistakes. The 40 roaches are to make SURE he is dead. If i am committing to an all in then it needs to work. But i appreciate the time you took to write such a well thought out post RyLai. Let me know what they are doing different then maybe you would do. The most recent replays i have posted are not even a day or two old so its not like its old meta-game. Hope to hear from you soon> Thanks
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I had a go at this build last night and accidently got roach speed instead of roach burrow, my attack came at 11:40, and the +1/+1 roaches made it an easy win. I usually never get roaches in ZvT but after losing a lot to mech i'm making a change.
I will test this build on ladder.
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Just played a game and the terran let me burrow all the way into his mains mineral line when i unburrowed he just left...
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I don't understand why players write guides on allins that they know lower level players will read, then complain when lower level players don't understand why they can't win-as all they know is allins. More guides need to be written for standard play. More guides should help players understand how important playing standard will increase every aspect of your game.
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Im sure there are millions of guides on standard play. Also most people who care about becoming better im sure watch day9/husky/artosis and things such as that. There are alot of build order apps as well.
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Not to say im better then him in anyway or to make it seem like im bragging because in a series he would prob crush me. But i played meFTW who is a GM player today and used this build and won. Here is the replay
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17334
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This a complete rip-off of spanishiwa, he was doing this on his stream two days ago.
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if you looked at the dates i posted this i came up with this months ago try reading before you say stupid shit like that
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2 spines right when pool finishes seems like an overkill and this is not really a new build. Yes, it is safe vs everything but if you decide to scout you can scout a gas first you can "delay" the spine and drone instead
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Have you considered building 2 roach warrens for speed + tunneling at the same time? It seems like if you're massing roaches it would be worth it
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iv played around with the idea but i think that would be a dead give away if even remotely scouted
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Dont know why this was bumped. Basically when i saw 2 spines as soon as pool finishes, i stopped reading. Sorry
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so your saying 1 extra spine compared to a standard build made you stop reading? are you that ignorant ?
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On January 22 2012 15:07 Firehawk277 wrote:
so your saying 1 extra spine compared to a standard build made you stop reading? are you that ignorant ?
That is exactly why i stopped reading. Are you that ignorant that you think this build is any good?
(before we get into a hissy fit i want to make it clear that i am talking about top tier builds such as in the GSL, in the ladder use whatever the hell you want)
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I feel you are far to paranoid at the start. 2 Spines and 2 queens Immediatley severly hampers your drone production at that time.
Instead I recommend you delay your second spine. This will help out your build as 2 spines are overkill against almost anything at that time.
Also, making 4 gysers + 2 Evos + Roach Warren + Macro hatch, is 8 drones dieing around the same time. Your will cripple your economy at that point. Try to find a way to spread out building all 8 buildings, atleast the macro hatch, evos and roach warren.
I feel if you fix both of these timings and smooth out your economy. You can get your timing to occur 1-2 min earlier.
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i dont understand this, why would u saturate all 4 gasses before saturating ur minerals when ur going for mineral heavy units, also why would u not get speed or spores after seeing that he was going some weird non hellion openeing, this could of easily been some king of marauder/hellion all in or marine/hellion drop with cloaked banchies that would of outright killed you, i really dont understand how this is even remotely fesible against a semi decent terran player
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yeah...ive been doing a burrowed roach 1-1 or 2-2 timing follow-up to spanishiwa's ice fisher for a while now but i have had more success vs toss.
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this build seem really weak from a terran point, scan, see roach, see noting else, mass banshees, take out queens, go to town on hatch and the panic-spores being thrown down, then win having the zerg tell you banshees are cheeze and being a nub etc kinda seem like the normal outcome, this build rely on the terran not making a single move before 10min, what if the terran reacts as any normal terran and go double fact only to siege outside ur base with 1 raven wich is no huge investment for immortal detection since ur queens cant reach farther then tanks obviously and roaches don't shoot up?
is it any way you can make this faster I'd say it will most sertenly catch many terrans off guard, but as of now it seem a single scan to see the silly amounts of roaches can even force a few BC's (LOL yes BC) to give you a hard time during the time T can expand and plant tanks and turrets all over while dropping due to the lack of mutas in the air.(mutas are prety good mmkay)
really creative build though.
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This build is sneaky, don't get caught unprepared.
One thing though I think it relies quite a bit on the surprise element, if you dont do massive damage when you reveal the build you'll have difficultly holding 3rd/4th base probably and in really large numbers marine/medivac > roaches
definitely not something most Z's do, and not something I would recommend doing back to back in a bo3/bo5.
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Yes exactly this build is ment for bo1 or the second game if ur up 1-0 in a bo3. Its just a good *surprise build* It can easily win you the game if your position is right. Also its not part of the meta game so ALOT of terrans will never see it coming. Thanks for all the feedback guys has helped the build alot.
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Firehawk! You know I <3 you and this build. I'll add feedback for everyone else since we have talked about your build at some length.
It can be an excellent all in.
But I also think you can morph the build into long macro games with a few changes.
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EPT
