EPT(H) ZvT Build Feedback. (Master Zerg) NEW BUILD - Page 3
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
On January 05 2012 09:05 Firehawk277 wrote: I gave examples if he had turrets. I pull back get my third up and running that i put down while i moved out and tech switch to mutas and banes with the roaches. If he moves out i can kills marines with banes because unless hes focus fireing the roaches will absorb the shots and the banes can move in and kill marines while the mutas finish tanks. I can delay his pushes in this manner untill i am on maybe 4 or 5 bases then go for infestor broodlords. Of course this is in a perfect world and under perfect conditions. This build is ment to be surprising and to throw a terran off his game in a bo3 or if your on ladder and get a good map like shakuras. This by all means is not a unstoppable build, every build has its flaws. But i feel that this build with what i feel is something more or less original weither or not you think I copied spanishiwas opening or not *which i have never watched his games i am more of a destiny stream watcher* it still brings a diff taste to roaches and ZvT. Thanks for this build, i tried the same on a CG vs a diamond ( he was crappy with macro but decent micro) - the roach push fails tho as he scanned well. But i teched to banes and with good upgrades and macro beat him. The replay for those who wanna see is below http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=248869 | ||
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Canuckelhead
Canada29 Posts
 I like the idea, especially vs mass Hellion off 2 reactor factories. Thanks for posting the replays and I'll be sure to try this on ladder! My one question is how would you react to a 2 port Banshee opening? T has Banshees and could make a Raven the moment he sees the Burrow tech, so how do you deal with that or even a 1-1-1 kind of build? | ||
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
2 More replays, the first one i should have honestly lost but with the burrow and tunnel i was able to snipe tanks and rush to his base before he could react. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16932 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16931 The build says to put down the evo chambers rather early so if you see the banshees you can delay with the 3 queens while spores come up. Also with the macro hatch you can spawn 3 queens at the same time rather then just 2. With that you should be able to hold off most banshee pushes. As far as 1/1/1 I dont see it often. But with the macro hatch and the large amount of minerals, plus the spines at the front delaying and with some good scouting you can out macro the terran quite easily. | ||
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Rosaria
Sweden23 Posts
At 11:30 terrans are pretty much knocking on your front door. Also, I don't really see a purpose with this build at all. What can roaches do that helps you? Burrow roaches and hope to get a free win? If terran gets an early 3rd, do you attack with roaches or harass with fewer mutas than usually? Or do you actually try to catch up after having spent mineral and gas on roaches just so you can defend yourself? Roaches aren't that good vs bio tank :s | ||
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16944 | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On January 08 2012 12:03 Rosaria wrote: If I can defend 15/15 hell even 16/16 with drones I see no reason to go 14/14 it just feels very bad. You will never defend a well executed 11/11 or even 11/12 or 12/12 2 rax with 16/16, lol. | ||
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RoMeSaruman
Germany8 Posts
just make sure you make a spine crawler at about 5:00 ( if you scout helions ) and if you do scout helions, make a second spine at 6:00 and some lings, than macro up, speed lair 1. upgrade, bling nest. if you dont scout helions you just macro up and make as many lings as you need for defense ( vs 2 rax / 1 rax fe into mass raxes - 1. speed 2. bling nest ) but in gernal in zvt you dont have to rush for some things like it is in zvp... | ||
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16951 | ||
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RyLai
United States477 Posts
On August 12 2011 20:42 Nate.F wrote: Well, to be honest, this can't really be considered a 'new' build. It's extremely similar to Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher Build. Your build is really just deviating from Spanishiwa's after starting lair tech, in this case you've chosen to tech to burrowed roaches. This isn't Spanishiwa's build. A build is what you do from beginning to end. An opener is what gets you into the mid-game. Reactor Hellions is an opener. SK Terran is a style, but it can be a build if you list out the specific timings you need to follow and hit. Builds can get as detailed as reaching tier 3 and 4+ bases (if it's a macro build). As far as I know, Ice Fisher is an opener that basically stops when you get a Lair (and a quick third?). If not, then it's a build that includes a quick third, Spire Tech (or the Infestor tech variation), and so on into Hive tech with Ultras and Broodlords. So this IS a different build (can't say new because I'm sure burrowed Roach timings are something that have probably been tried during the beta). As for the build itself, it feels VERY all-in-ish. It's similar to EG.Machine's old ZvP build. But he gets his Roaches out at about the 10 minute mark. He doesn't have 40 (which is totally overkill), but he has around 20-24, which is all you really need, since by then they shouldn't have all that much. Even if they rushed Tanks off of a standard Reactor Hellion expand opening, making only 2 Hellions (for some unknown reason), they should only have around 5 Tanks. And that's REALLY rushing it. Normally they should have around 3, maybe 4. The Marine/Tank push shouldn't come at the 11 or 12 minute mark. That's REALLY late unless they're doing some delayed, super push with Medivacs. To be honest, until recently, I've been practicing a Marine/Tank push that hits at like 8-9 minutes, and it kills many Zergs outright or does a ton of damage and allows me to safely take a third base since most Zergs expect a push at 10+ minutes. By the time Lings pop, I have 2 Bunkers and 2-3 Tanks set up outside your base with ~16 Marines. ~20 Roaches should be fine at the 10 minute mark, then you take a third while poking their front. If you see that they are vulnerable, you can simply reinforce with a ton of speedlings, which cause more problems than more Roaches if there are already Roaches in their base. Also, since you save your gas, you could spend that on your tech behind the pressure. I would feel much safer with 40-50 Drones and 20 Roaches and poking than committing to 40 Roaches. Having +1/+1 is nice, but I'd also rather commit to just the armor upgrade, since I'd rather not use Roaches unless the Terran is going mech. If you commit to 40 Roaches, you're very all in or you're praying to God that they attack you. In that case, you might as well just get Roach Speed instead and set up a surround on the Terran army before they push your third like DRG did to MMA on Antiga Shipyard. And this won't work on a turtling Terran unless they've already taken a third base. By 11-12 minutes, they have a Depot wall defending the natural with a Bunker. There will be no reason for the Depots to be lowered unless he's moving out to push or take a third. And for scenario 3, in what way does he scout your tech? If he sees you researching Tunneling Claws, 99% chance says he thinks it's Roach Speed if he's any good (and assuming you are any good). So chances are that for him to know exactly what you are doing, you have to reveal a relatively committed army and tech path to him, in which case pulling back and macroing ISN'T an option. He takes a third base, turtles, and kills you with a massive timing push. It's a plausible build, but you're investing WAY too much into relying on a massive mistake or another from your opponent. Burrowed Banelings are a MUCH better investment. Hell, Speed Roaches are better. BUT, you can still try that Tunneling Claw poke and secure a third base, while still being reasonably ready for any upcoming pushes. And I think someone did this build (or a similar concept) to me and died a very horrible death... I don't remember exactly how the game went, but it wasn't pleasant for him. He cried about Terran imbalance of course. This is all just from a Terran perspective (with some past Zerg experience). In ZvP, you can be closer in worker counts than in ZvT, which is why a similar build worked so damn well for me in ZvP (until FFE became standard and the build became outdated). In ZvT, you have to account for MULEs, which are like 6 workers? So on 2 base, Terran has about +12 workers mining minerals. So with 44 workers, you're equivalent to 32 SCVs just to be even (which is still not good)... If Terran has 32 SCVs at the 11-12 minute mark, then they aren't Master's level, they hard cut SCVs for a push, or you did some serious damage somewhere. Basically your Roach push would have to do serious damage or else you lose the game in one horrible way or another. And Marines with Stim are pretty good against Roaches... If your Roaches are spending time killing Tanks, the stimmed Marines are spending equal amounts of time mowing down Roaches. And all you really need in the end of a battle is the Marine count. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
That said, roach baneling midgames are pretty strong. And I hate doing 8-9 minute pushes cause mass ling just demolishes you horribly. | ||
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discobaas
225 Posts
Scenario 1 is just gimicky, you need to get lucky to catch the T moving out and not paying attention. 2 is unlikely, because a proper T will have scouting info on you and also very likely a full wall anyway. Lastly 3, you are simply far behind if you do this (if the T can macro a bit). I think the only reason this may seem successful for you atm is because a lot of T's do some crappy blind allins and if you kill the first tanks you win. | ||
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
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Shottaz
United Kingdom414 Posts
I will test this build on ladder. | ||
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
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Hossinaut
United States453 Posts
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
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Firehawk277
United States40 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17334 | ||
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