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On December 30 2012 02:20 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 01:07 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Hellion banshee opening is crucial to the evolution of TvZ
It is "safe" to majority of the ZvT 2 base aggression.
Hellions deal with zerglings and banshee deals with bling/roach.
It forces defenses from the zerg and gives map control in the 2-3 base macro stage.
Only tier 2 zerg tech gives map control back. You are wrong imo. Hellion banshee is pretty unsafe, but 99% of the zergs don't know this yet. Stephano knows about this, and he abuses it pretty hard: 1) 10:00-11:00 roach queen timings 2) 10:00-11:00 speedroach timings (and I am not talking about 15 roaches, I am talking about more) 3) 10:00-11:00 roach + hydra (see stephano vs mkp and some other code S terrans) Why is it so effective? Hellion + banshee = later tanks, later grades, smaller bio army. As soon as zergs realise this, hellion banshee will be gone from the metagame  .
Hellion banshee won't disappear entirely but there's definitely ways Zerg can make it extremely awkward for terrans. Roach timings and roach nydus queen timings and super fast dopey mutalisk timings can all be really strong vs hellion banshee. But hey that's TvZ, zerg players know a lot of really cutthroat styles against a lot of predicted terran styles and that just kind of sucks.
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http://drop.sc/289255
Please help!
I am a gold level terran, and I am having issues with TvZ. I regularly play against a good friend of mine (gold zerg), and he keeps beating me if I try to play macro games. I narrowly studied day9's videos on agression spikes and timings. I usually choose to play low agression in the early game, and go for a 2-2 timing at 14:00 with marine tank medivac. This game I chose to go 10:00 marine marauder hellion agression, that worked perfectly. Bu my 2-2 failed afterwards, because I lack a certain piece in my play. Can someone help me?
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On December 30 2012 02:20 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 01:07 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Hellion banshee opening is crucial to the evolution of TvZ
It is "safe" to majority of the ZvT 2 base aggression.
Hellions deal with zerglings and banshee deals with bling/roach.
It forces defenses from the zerg and gives map control in the 2-3 base macro stage.
Only tier 2 zerg tech gives map control back. You are wrong imo. Hellion banshee is pretty unsafe, but 99% of the zergs don't know this yet. Stephano knows about this, and he abuses it pretty hard: 1) 10:00-11:00 roach queen timings 2) 10:00-11:00 speedroach timings (and I am not talking about 15 roaches, I am talking about more) 3) 10:00-11:00 roach + hydra (see stephano vs mkp and some other code S terrans) Why is it so effective? Hellion + banshee = later tanks, later grades, smaller bio army. As soon as zergs realise this, hellion banshee will be gone from the metagame .
All these are pretty arbitrary... There have been plenty of examples of holds from terrans against similar timings recently.
Majority of Flash MvP invite and Ryung's GSL run have been successful in dealing with 2 base roach aggression.
If you have mediocre repairs and micro, you should trade evenly if not slightly ahead of the opponent.
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I got so tired of those damn roach pushes that I went back to the old 1 fac reactor hellion 1 rax with a tech lab for marauders for safety. Earlier stim + hellion medivac timings to at least clear creep and get map control. Hellions poke around sans a banshee. I get 1 viking just for those gay OL spots that see everything as you shark.
Just a normal 1 rax FE double gas fac reactor but instead of such an early banshee, keep tech lab, make marauders, and a viking from early starport. Can do hellion drops in mineral lines with the subsequent medivacs after the viking;
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On December 30 2012 09:13 TheDwf wrote:
2-bases Speedroaches attacks can be held after Hellions/Banshee openings, I remember defending such an attack from Nerchio two seasons ago while I was going mech; carefully placed Sieged Tanks behind walls with some help from Banshees can prevent Roaches from wreaking havoc in your base (with bio you can get Bunkers and Marines/Marauders). You have to deviate from the usual build orders to defend efficiently such pushes, but the weakness comes from inadequate scouting/transitions rather than the initial Hellions/Banshees part, just like 2-bases Mutalisks can deal severe damage if you did not take this possibility into consideration in your follow-up.
If the timing is correct, you will have 1 tank in the best scenario, and that's not enough. The tank will get sniped pretty fast.
Like I said, I am not talking about 10 roaches. I am talking about more then 20, with speed, 2 shotting fully repaired bunkers.
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Hi!
Is there any viable all in or heavy pressure builds against protoss? I`m losing every single tvp cos i can`t deal any damage in midgame (10min medivack timing) although i think im doing that right. And after that, game is basically over for me cos toss just rolls over me with deathball.
Im dia/master
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@rednas12
OK you lost because you were way too passive after your first attack. That's the main reason.
You might even have killed him with that if you had been a bit more efficient with your opening. Why do you scout so early? What are expecting to see? When you do scout no gas, you can probably get away without the bunker. Try and get everything just a little faster.
When you do finally attack, it's a total mess. Your forces are way too spread out, your tanks aren't supporting your marines, and worst of all you haven't killed the creep so he know's exactly where all your forces are. It didn't help that you had only 2 orbital commands for scans.
Try to bring everything forward slightly by being more efficient with your macro, and when you do attack make sure to scan to kill creep and be more aggressive leap frogging your tanks forward. You don't have to wait for 2/2 in every circumstance, especially if you've killed off his evo chambers and he is behind on upgrades.
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@Lefaa
If you want to try something fun you could have a look at this:
http://drop.sc/289317
Check his camera at the end, I think he was a little surprised, didn't even know what hit him
I love it when a plan comes together!
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On December 31 2012 02:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I got so tired of those damn roach pushes that I went back to the old 1 fac reactor hellion 1 rax with a tech lab for marauders for safety. Earlier stim + hellion medivac timings to at least clear creep and get map control. Hellions poke around sans a banshee. I get 1 viking just for those gay OL spots that see everything as you shark.
Just a normal 1 rax FE double gas fac reactor but instead of such an early banshee, keep tech lab, make marauders, and a viking from early starport. Can do hellion drops in mineral lines with the subsequent medivacs after the viking;
This is pretty much what I've also started doing again. Ver and theDwf preach hellion banshee, but I think zergs have already figured out how to deflect all harassment with minimal damage. And like you said, not going for super fast banshees doesn't leave you open to all the roach timings.
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Having alternative 1 rax FE builds is perfectly fine. Hellion banshee is viable but like almost any build can get metagamed pretty hard somehow, and it's maybe a little too common who knows. Zerg can be real cutthroat pricks if they want to.
I'm not a big fan of marauders without some form of attack planned out and with queen range I don't think only 1 rax can do it (maybe it can though I'm actually not 100% sure, it definitely was one queen patch ago). Marauders super good defensively vs roaches but they are so very bad against a zerg who is just droning pretty hard or using early gas for quick lair or speedlings and all this together is more common then roaches generally. I know polt likes to add on 2 more raxes for 3 rax 1 hellion stim/shields push and that can be very hard hitting but it can be really easy to overlord scout sometimes (I hate it when polt is going like 3 tech lab rax off 2 marines and his opponent doesn't check it. SOOOOOOOOOO simple counter!)
Viking and medivacs certainly have their uses but won't help all that much vs fast lair tech or roach/bane timings. Still, that's impossible to really predict so yea do whatever.
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I often swap the banshee for a medivac full of marines
Quite powerful harass and having 2 rax makes defending early pressure a lot easier.
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On December 31 2012 02:30 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I got so tired of those damn roach pushes that I went back to the old 1 fac reactor hellion 1 rax with a tech lab for marauders for safety. Earlier stim + hellion medivac timings to at least clear creep and get map control. Hellions poke around sans a banshee. I get 1 viking just for those gay OL spots that see everything as you shark.
Just a normal 1 rax FE double gas fac reactor but instead of such an early banshee, keep tech lab, make marauders, and a viking from early starport. Can do hellion drops in mineral lines with the subsequent medivacs after the viking;
Thank you. I am going to try this. Early roaches are an auto loss for me
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In the recent GSL5, I saw a new take on the hellion banshee 3OC, in game 2 of Taeja vs Dark, Taeja went for a stim marine hellion double medivac push instead of the usual hellion banshee harrass.
He went CC fist into 2 rax, double OC then gets double gas, first 150 gas goes into a factory and reactor, the rax that builds the reactor builds another reactor and starts producing marines, the 2nd rax build a tech lab while the first rax is building the first reactor and researches stim, the 2nd rax continues producing marines and is able to produce marauders if roach aggression in scouted. A third CC is built while the 2nd rax is building the reactor. As the third set of hellions is being built, a starport is built and switches once the third set of hellions is done and produces 2 medivacs once it is finished. as the 2 medivacs are being produced Taeja starts to push out.
The push consisted of 6 hellions, 2 medivacs, and about 20 or so stim marines that hits just before the 10min mark, Taeja then transitions into marine tank medivac and double ups
As Taeja gets a starport, he also gets the 2 natural gas, double ebay, and techlab on factory for tanks and siege. He just transitions into the normal marine tank medivac with double ups
One thing weakness I can see of the build is that the upgrades are pretty late with 1/1 not starting until about after the 9 mins mark
Also I felt that part of the effectiveness of the build was due to Taeja denying any lings from scouting his push from coming out
The map also helped in that Dark did not have anywhere for a overlord to scout Taeja moving out as Antiga does not have a high ground location for the ovie to sit
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On December 31 2012 16:42 NoZyneighbor wrote:
In the recent GSL5, I saw a new take on the hellion banshee 3OC, in game 2 of Taeja vs Dark, Taeja went for a stim marine hellion double medivac push instead of the usual hellion banshee harrass.
I saw this build the first time when bogus did it. You need godly micro. The problems are:
- late grades
- low tankcount
- code S micro required
Good build overall, pretty fast third.
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re: tvz - I like going cc first and getting 2 rax before gas instead of the more common 1 rax into tech. makes you safer, you can afford marauders... I take double gas around 24 supply, and go fac, then reactor on rax, then tech lab other rax. swap fac to reactor when done (unless you know roaches are coming, then marines are better and you can do whatever with the fac, make tanks or even tech to banshee)
still gets a decently fast third and you can get the upgrades right then if you like
everything is a little slower if you still get the banshee but it lets you be safe without it. I prefer to just go right into upgrades before getting a starport.
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Been doing something similar to that aswell now and then, still in dubio about it though. Dont really have time anymore to properly test the options out.
Anyway, on small maps if you go depot/rax > cc > rax/depot bw style and cut 1 scv out you can put alot of pressure if zerg goes for a fast third and most of the time you can actualy kill it. Furthermore you can do the same as a 12/14 rax and get a bunker contain up to slow down creep spreading a bit. The problem is because you pressure, zerg can scout everything you do with an ovi which is teh sux. Your follow up will be a bit slower but on small maps if you can delay a zergs third and creep spread its worth it for me.
Ive watched some sc2 tours as of late and these banshee/helion build just seem to lose steam and the advantages they give you (harras potential, creep clearing, scouting, map control) seems to be getting smaller and smaller.
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IMO it seems hard to go into Mech without going Hellion Banshee; I don't think I'd recommend it for a bio player however. It can hold next to all all-in's if you react to them correctly but that requires scouting them out fully which is different to a lot of bio orientated builds which can simply defend off the cuff.
If anyone has any better Mech openers I'm all ears, besides anything else hellion banshee is getting stale. I might go back to 2 medivac hellion drops but they have their own, very obvious weaknesses to roaches.
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You could go for that blue flame hellion opening flash seems to like. It's the one MVP did against Life, but a bit more refined and uses drops better. Just watch Proleague or the MvP tournament to find it.
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One thing I would suggest is consider mixing in some marines early on when going for mech. Even without stim and sheilds, marines are pretty good support in the early stages and take away a lot of the risk. It also threatens the possibility of early pressure and can disguise the fact you are going mech.
Also having a spare rax as a scout or just a beefy wall is often handy.
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On December 31 2012 21:49 kollin wrote:
You could go for that blue flame hellion opening flash seems to like. It's the one MVP did against Life, but a bit more refined and uses drops better. Just watch Proleague or the MvP tournament to find it.
I'll look into it, good job I paid for those tournaments hehe.
On December 31 2012 21:57 Willzzz wrote:
One thing I would suggest is consider mixing in some marines early on when going for mech. Even without stim and sheilds, marines are pretty good support in the early stages and take away a lot of the risk. It also threatens the possibility of early pressure and can disguise the fact you are going mech.
Also having a spare rax as a scout or just a beefy wall is often handy.
Whilst I'm not opposed to the idea of marines in early game mech, they don't really nullify the threat of roaches or banelings, at least not in the time frame we're talking about. They would however be good against fast ling pressure before hellions or even the waves of lings that sometimes hit after Zerg takes a fast third.
I might try looking into a 2-rax opener as I'm sure I've seen MKP use one and then transition.
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EPT
