|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these!
the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed.
Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it.
|
Nah I disagree. I've seen some variants that, even when scouted have been very successful. One example is Bbyong's games on Planet S vs Protoss, it's a standard 111 but with a raven instead of cloak and an extra naked rax for a few more marines.
|
On December 29 2012 10:03 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these! the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed. Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it.
Why put some arbitrary league? "Goldish" I play against high masters protosses and I still make the 1-1-1 work. There is no set level where they drop off. Look at heart. He still 1-1-1s. Byun has a 2-1-1 named after him.
The 1-1-1 is weak if the protoss scouts it, and cuts probes, masses units, and gets charge or collsai + range out.
|
On December 29 2012 09:23 Lionbacker wrote:
Hi guys, I need some help in the following situation:
TvZ
I scout an early gas, one base, baneling bust. What is the proper build order and adjustment? Bunkers? How many of them? Units? How many of them? If I survive it, how do I transition into mid game and are there particular units I should be shooting for? Any help would be appreciated! I get thrown out of wack and don't know what to do.
By the way, my normal opener is Polt's TvZ.
Thank you again.
my response assumes that you are going for a gasless fe (not familiar with polts tvz)
the first thing you should worry about is being thoughtful with your building placement before the attack arrives. supply depots should be appropriatly placed, if you are going mech, float your barracks down to help make a wall. Doing these things before the attack arrives will make it a LOT easier when it does.
you need bunkers, at least 3 or 4 imo. if you have really good apm and can split your marines than go ahead and skip a few bunkers.. but an early baneling bust is pretty all or nothing for zerg, so you just want to survive.
as far as units, youre probably not gonna have much more than basic bio or a few hellions, maybe a banshee or 2 depending on when it hits. get your bio in position before the attack arrives, that meens presplitting marines so he has to use as many banelings as possible. you dont wanna be scrambling to save your units from baneling hits. have your scvs set to repair bunkers, and use your apm microing hellions. your focus should be to take as little damage as possible as opposed to inflicting massive damage with your hellions. The reason for this is that you want to keep the zerglings chasing the hellions around for as long as possible so that your rines have more time to shoot. keep a cool head and dont miss any production cycles for scvs or units.
Most of the advice i give here has to do with preparing for the attack. There isnt a whole lot you can do if he catches you unprepared.
As far as transitioning, stick to whatever your original gameplan was! Put an emphasis on scouting, hes probably going to have to try something annoying or funky to get back into the game. Sometimes they will sprint to hive tech, sometimes go for another delayed attack, mass muta, etc etc. dont be afraid to burn a few scans to see what he is up to.
|
On December 29 2012 10:13 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 10:03 Aveng3r wrote:On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these! the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed. Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it. Why put some arbitrary league? "Goldish" I play against high masters protosses and I still make the 1-1-1 work. There is no set level where they drop off. Look at heart. He still 1-1-1s. Byun has a 2-1-1 named after him. The 1-1-1 is weak if the protoss scouts it, and cuts probes, masses units, and gets charge or collsai + range out.
well... yeah. youre pretty much right.
I was more trying to say that if you follow a build order for the 1-1-1 and do it blindly, it will work for you up to a certain point. ("goldish" league) but I think that if protoss knows that its coming and responds properly, terran loses every time doing this build.
btw I havent seen a 1-1-1 attemted by a pro during a meaningful game in a LONG time.. are you sure they still do it?
@kollin how recent was this?
|
On December 29 2012 10:34 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 10:13 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 29 2012 10:03 Aveng3r wrote:On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these! the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed. Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it. Why put some arbitrary league? "Goldish" I play against high masters protosses and I still make the 1-1-1 work. There is no set level where they drop off. Look at heart. He still 1-1-1s. Byun has a 2-1-1 named after him. The 1-1-1 is weak if the protoss scouts it, and cuts probes, masses units, and gets charge or collsai + range out. well... yeah. youre pretty much right. I was more trying to say that if you follow a build order for the 1-1-1 and do it blindly, it will work for you up to a certain point. ("goldish" league) but I think that if protoss knows that its coming and responds properly, terran loses every time doing this build. btw I havent seen a 1-1-1 attemted by a pro during a meaningful game in a LONG time.. are you sure they still do it? @kollin how recent was this?
Last I remember heart did it in an MLG against huk.
|
On December 29 2012 10:34 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 10:13 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 29 2012 10:03 Aveng3r wrote:On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these! the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed. Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it. Why put some arbitrary league? "Goldish" I play against high masters protosses and I still make the 1-1-1 work. There is no set level where they drop off. Look at heart. He still 1-1-1s. Byun has a 2-1-1 named after him. The 1-1-1 is weak if the protoss scouts it, and cuts probes, masses units, and gets charge or collsai + range out. well... yeah. youre pretty much right. I was more trying to say that if you follow a build order for the 1-1-1 and do it blindly, it will work for you up to a certain point. ("goldish" league) but I think that if protoss knows that its coming and responds properly, terran loses every time doing this build. btw I havent seen a 1-1-1 attemted by a pro during a meaningful game in a LONG time.. are you sure they still do it? @kollin how recent was this?
Sting 1/1/1'd Grubby in the grand finals of IEM Singapore late last November, that's the last time I saw it.
|
I'm lost in TvT build-order wise. Can anyone recommend a solid build-order that I can do on most ladder maps which transitions into Marine/Tank/Medivac?
I would prefer written form, but video is fine too.
|
On December 29 2012 13:45 Fencar wrote:
I'm lost in TvT build-order wise. Can anyone recommend a solid build-order that I can do on most ladder maps which transitions into Marine/Tank/Medivac?
I would prefer written form, but video is fine too.
1 Rax FE into 1/1/1 is probably the safest build overall in TvT and the most versatile (can transition into marine tank, bio or mech). Unfortunately there isn't really a catch-all build, mirror match-ups are by definition reactionary (TvT even moreso since it's the match-up with the most significant defenders advantage).
General build order looks something like
-Whatever version of 1 Rax Fe you prefer (I like to wall off and high ground CC just for extra safety and to throw people off in BoX's, but it's by far the least economic)
-Double Gas
-First 100g Factory
-Next 50g Reactor on Rax
-@100% Factory Starport, Tech Lab on Factory
From here for a Marine Tank build you can go either Marine Viking Tank or Marine Cloak Banshee, Viking Tank is safer against 1 base tank builds while Cloak Banshee gives you map presence which you'll lack against a 1 Rax Fe into 3 Rax marine. I usually go Cloakshee since with good control I feel like they can be extremely strong in the early game, but it requires pretty decent multitasking to be able to macro behind it and still do enough damage to make it worth it.
From there add on an Engineering Bay, Natural Gas, 3rd CC and 2 more Rax in whatever order feels most comfortable to you. I tend to go 3rd CC 2xEng 2xGas 2xRax when I can, but it's the most greedy variation. Safest version is probably 1xEng, 2xRax, 2xGas 3rd CC.
|
On December 29 2012 10:34 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 10:13 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 29 2012 10:03 Aveng3r wrote:On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these! the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed. Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it. Why put some arbitrary league? "Goldish" I play against high masters protosses and I still make the 1-1-1 work. There is no set level where they drop off. Look at heart. He still 1-1-1s. Byun has a 2-1-1 named after him. The 1-1-1 is weak if the protoss scouts it, and cuts probes, masses units, and gets charge or collsai + range out. well... yeah. youre pretty much right. I was more trying to say that if you follow a build order for the 1-1-1 and do it blindly, it will work for you up to a certain point. ("goldish" league) but I think that if protoss knows that its coming and responds properly, terran loses every time doing this build. btw I havent seen a 1-1-1 attemted by a pro during a meaningful game in a LONG time.. are you sure they still do it? @kollin how recent was this?
Last week.
|
To further this discussion about 1/1/1 I use this as a 1base allin in TvT and TvP at the minute. In TvP I open with proxy fact and port into hellion drop as per first page this thread. In TvT I open gas first cloak banshee into 1/1/1.
I was just wondering if you guys get any upgrades for your marines at all with this allin? I'd imagine not because the gas needed to produce tanks and air is probably too much to try and grab stim/cs/+1. But I was wondering if you guys managed to squeeze them in. I find myself using cloaked banshees in both matchups as I like to use them to snipe opponents tanks and immortals.
Also I find myself floating lots of minerals with just 1 reactored rax, sometimes I throw down just a second, but sometimes a third naked rax but don't know which is correct. Whether 3rax is overkill or 2rax isn't enough, idk.
Thanks
|
1 extra naked rax is fine, that's what Bbyong does. I wouldn't recommend you getting cloak on a banshee though, use that gas to get a raven. If you want an example of a 111 that has upgrades, watch Marineking vs Brown on Ohana in the Iron Squid S2.
|
On December 29 2012 23:35 Marathi wrote:
To further this discussion about 1/1/1 I use this as a 1base allin in TvT and TvP at the minute. In TvP I open with proxy fact and port into hellion drop as per first page this thread. In TvT I open gas first cloak banshee into 1/1/1.
I was just wondering if you guys get any upgrades for your marines at all with this allin? I'd imagine not because the gas needed to produce tanks and air is probably too much to try and grab stim/cs/+1. But I was wondering if you guys managed to squeeze them in. I find myself using cloaked banshees in both matchups as I like to use them to snipe opponents tanks and immortals.
Also I find myself floating lots of minerals with just 1 reactored rax, sometimes I throw down just a second, but sometimes a third naked rax but don't know which is correct. Whether 3rax is overkill or 2rax isn't enough, idk.
Thanks
I don't use this much, but one of the strongest variations of the 1-1-1 in TvP is when you get 2 raxes -fact -starport,
get CS+STIM and many marines, and push out with marines tanks and a single medivac.
It's very powerful, and I've seen it used by some korean terrans in the last few months.
|
On December 29 2012 23:52 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 23:35 Marathi wrote:
To further this discussion about 1/1/1 I use this as a 1base allin in TvT and TvP at the minute. In TvP I open with proxy fact and port into hellion drop as per first page this thread. In TvT I open gas first cloak banshee into 1/1/1.
I was just wondering if you guys get any upgrades for your marines at all with this allin? I'd imagine not because the gas needed to produce tanks and air is probably too much to try and grab stim/cs/+1. But I was wondering if you guys managed to squeeze them in. I find myself using cloaked banshees in both matchups as I like to use them to snipe opponents tanks and immortals.
Also I find myself floating lots of minerals with just 1 reactored rax, sometimes I throw down just a second, but sometimes a third naked rax but don't know which is correct. Whether 3rax is overkill or 2rax isn't enough, idk.
Thanks I don't use this much, but one of the strongest variations of the 1-1-1 in TvP is when you get 2 raxes -fact -starport, get CS+STIM and many marines, and push out with marines tanks and a single medivac. It's very powerful, and I've seen it used by some korean terrans in the last few months.
Yep, this is the build Marineking did against Brown. I believe it was originally done by Byun though.
|
Does Playing Terran remind anyone of playing Protoss in BW?
In TvZ; BW: PvZ
Cloak banshee=Dark templar
hellions=corsairs
tier 1-2 superiority; 2-3 superiority; shit tier 3 unless perfect comp+ amazing micro+ lots of luck= cost efficiency
In TvP; BW PvT
aggressive with drops
Medvac/bio; Shuttle/caterpillar ㅋㅋ
Throw unit after unit against the wall
Colossi, archon, storm, forcefield, charge; Tanks, emp
Hellion banshee opening is crucial to the evolution of TvZ
It is "safe" to majority of the ZvT 2 base aggression.
Hellions deal with zerglings and banshee deals with bling/roach.
It forces defenses from the zerg and gives map control in the 2-3 base macro stage.
Only tier 2 zerg tech gives map control back.
|
On December 30 2012 01:07 Cattlecruiser wrote:
Hellion banshee opening is crucial to the evolution of TvZ
It is "safe" to majority of the ZvT 2 base aggression.
Hellions deal with zerglings and banshee deals with bling/roach.
It forces defenses from the zerg and gives map control in the 2-3 base macro stage.
Only tier 2 zerg tech gives map control back.
You are wrong imo. Hellion banshee is pretty unsafe, but 99% of the zergs don't know this yet. Stephano knows about this, and he abuses it pretty hard:
1) 10:00-11:00 roach queen timings
2) 10:00-11:00 speedroach timings (and I am not talking about 15 roaches, I am talking about more)
3) 10:00-11:00 roach + hydra (see stephano vs mkp and some other code S terrans)
Why is it so effective? Hellion + banshee = later tanks, later grades, smaller bio army.
As soon as zergs realise this, hellion banshee will be gone from the metagame  .
|
Hellion banshee has been very vulnerable for a long time, even back to 2011. DRG showed how flimsy hellion-banshee is to a simple 7 roach speedling attack off of 2-base. Hits when Terran has only 2-4 hellions and a couple of marines, hits before the first banshee. Guaranteed SCV kills, Terran most likely has to evacuate his expansion, lets zerg drone up and take a 3rd base.
EDIT: I know Ver disagrees with me since he loves hellion-banshee TvZ, hence the warning. Regardless, I stand by what I said. Hellion-Banshee is good in many scenarios. It's not perfect by any means.
And I would love for him to explain how to stop such a strat, since all zergs know how to prevent a Terran from scouting that he hasn't taken a third of gone for gas.
User was warned for this post
|
On December 29 2012 13:45 Fencar wrote:
I'm lost in TvT build-order wise. Can anyone recommend a solid build-order that I can do on most ladder maps which transitions into Marine/Tank/Medivac?
I would prefer written form, but video is fine too.
http://nathanlau.co.uk/Starcraft/terran/display.php?id=1
Here is a link to a build a 1 barracks gas less expand build with some notes and pictures.
|
On December 29 2012 06:29 Snowbear wrote:
Any grandmaster / very high master (1500+) that knows a good 10:00-11:00 timing vs zerg?
I'm afraid there is none.
On December 29 2012 10:26 Aveng3r wrote:
my response assumes that you are going for a gasless fe (not familiar with polts tvz)
the first thing you should worry about is being thoughtful with your building placement before the attack arrives. supply depots should be appropriatly placed, if you are going mech, float your barracks down to help make a wall. Doing these things before the attack arrives will make it a LOT easier when it does.
you need bunkers, at least 3 or 4 imo. if you have really good apm and can split your marines than go ahead and skip a few bunkers.. but an early baneling bust is pretty all or nothing for zerg, so you just want to survive.
as far as units, youre probably not gonna have much more than basic bio or a few hellions, maybe a banshee or 2 depending on when it hits. get your bio in position before the attack arrives, that meens presplitting marines so he has to use as many banelings as possible. you dont wanna be scrambling to save your units from baneling hits. have your scvs set to repair bunkers, and use your apm microing hellions. your focus should be to take as little damage as possible as opposed to inflicting massive damage with your hellions. The reason for this is that you want to keep the zerglings chasing the hellions around for as long as possible so that your rines have more time to shoot. keep a cool head and dont miss any production cycles for scvs or units.
Most of the advice i give here has to do with preparing for the attack. There isnt a whole lot you can do if he catches you unprepared.
As far as transitioning, stick to whatever your original gameplan was! Put an emphasis on scouting, hes probably going to have to try something annoying or funky to get back into the game. Sometimes they will sprint to hive tech, sometimes go for another delayed attack, mass muta, etc etc. dont be afraid to burn a few scans to see what he is up to.
Don't want to be rude but your answer would not be so vague if you had already faced a 1-base Baneling bust. There is no such thing as “mech” yet since you're still in the opening phase, you have no minerals for “at least 3-4 Bunkers” at this time and you certainly won't have “maybe a Banshee or 2” because a 14/14 Baneling bust hits at ~5'30 while the first Banshee is out at 7'30 at best.
On December 29 2012 09:23 Lionbacker wrote:
Hi guys, I need some help in the following situation:
TvZ
I scout an early gas, one base, baneling bust. What is the proper build order and adjustment? Bunkers? How many of them? Units? How many of them? If I survive it, how do I transition into mid game and are there particular units I should be shooting for? Any help would be appreciated! I get thrown out of wack and don't know what to do.
By the way, my normal opener is Polt's TvZ.
Thank you again.
Use this kind of wall.
If you did not scout it in time and/or your position does not allow you to fully wall with 3 sturdy buildings, fortify behind the weak point(s) of your already existing wall (i. e. Depot(s)) using Bunker/Depot(s) and your CC + Factory.
Hellions out of the Factory, Lab Starport to make Banshees behind, kill Zerg with Hellions/Banshees.
On December 30 2012 02:20 Snowbear wrote:You are wrong imo. Hellion banshee is pretty unsafe, but 99% of the zergs don't know this yet. Stephano knows about this, and he abuses it pretty hard: 1) 10:00-11:00 roach queen timings 2) 10:00-11:00 speedroach timings (and I am not talking about 15 roaches, I am talking about more) 3) 10:00-11:00 roach + hydra (see stephano vs mkp and some other code S terrans) Why is it so effective? Hellion + banshee = later tanks, later grades, smaller bio army. As soon as zergs realise this, hellion banshee will be gone from the metagame .
2-bases Speedroaches attacks can be held after Hellions/Banshee openings, I remember defending such an attack from Nerchio two seasons ago while I was going mech; carefully placed Sieged Tanks behind walls with some help from Banshees can prevent Roaches from wreaking havoc in your base (with bio you can get Bunkers and Marines/Marauders). You have to deviate from the usual build orders to defend efficiently such pushes, but the weakness comes from inadequate scouting/transitions rather than the initial Hellions/Banshees part, just like 2-bases Mutalisks can deal severe damage if you did not take this possibility into consideration in your follow-up.
|
On December 29 2012 11:31 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 10:34 Aveng3r wrote:On December 29 2012 10:13 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 29 2012 10:03 Aveng3r wrote:On December 29 2012 01:52 crumunch wrote:
Hey, I have a question regarding TvP nowadays:
1) Is the 1-1-1 all in still viable? If not, why isn't it anymore?
2) Does anyone know of either a page with a good build for the 1-1-1 all in, or a recent vod of a pro wining with it?
Thanks so much if you can answer either of these! the 1-1-1 isnt viable anymore IF your opponent knows that it is coming and knows how to respond. If you follow the build order in goldish league and below you can probably win most of your games with it, but if toss knows its coming youre probably gonna get smashed. Its been around for a while and toss has pretty much figured out how to defend it. Why put some arbitrary league? "Goldish" I play against high masters protosses and I still make the 1-1-1 work. There is no set level where they drop off. Look at heart. He still 1-1-1s. Byun has a 2-1-1 named after him. The 1-1-1 is weak if the protoss scouts it, and cuts probes, masses units, and gets charge or collsai + range out. well... yeah. youre pretty much right. I was more trying to say that if you follow a build order for the 1-1-1 and do it blindly, it will work for you up to a certain point. ("goldish" league) but I think that if protoss knows that its coming and responds properly, terran loses every time doing this build. btw I havent seen a 1-1-1 attemted by a pro during a meaningful game in a LONG time.. are you sure they still do it? @kollin how recent was this? Sting 1/1/1'd Grubby in the grand finals of IEM Singapore late last November, that's the last time I saw it.
1-1-1 is super duper rare nowadays but it does show up. Grubby did a proxy gateway that game if I recall correctly so maybe that had something to do with stings thought process but I cannot say for sure. Ohana is probably the best map for 1/1/1 simply because it's got the shortest rush distance and until you start really getting into the natural it's hard to get dicked by forcefields on one of those natural rock/small ramps like Cloud or Daybreak. Antiga can also be really good for tank pushes due to the chance that protoss has left buildings in his main siegeable from the lower ground + also hard to forcefield + rush distance can be alright.
Protoss got really good at stopping 1-1-1 for the most part though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
