EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 417
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halpimcat
215 Posts
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NoZyneighbor
Canada77 Posts
On December 25 2012 16:39 halpimcat wrote: Also, what's the best way to counter phoenix/collosus? This seems like such an elementary question but whenever I encounter it I can never get the viking count high enough to kill both the phoenix and colossus during the battle. Is there something different I have to do positionally to win? By the time my vikings can start chewing away the collosus they've been in the battle long enough to kill most of my bio, and it's harder to snipe them with the phoenix roaming about. Maybe my composition has to change? I have no idea This was recently answered in this thread by TheDwf but I will just copy what he said On December 21 2012 20:53 TheDwf wrote: Sounds 100% like a unit composition issue. From your description you need something like ~10 Ghosts and 20-25 Vikings to deal with his army; if you maxed mainly on Marines/Marauders with not enough Vikings you had no chance to overcome him. Don't worry, there is no magic at all in his all-in—which is particularly awful by the way—but like any TvP fight, you will get stomped if your unit composition is not appropriate. On December 22 2012 00:48 TheDwf wrote: Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes/Stalkers/Archons before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades; well, you won't have more than +1 against such a strategy but against 3-bases Phoenixes/Colossi be sure to get +2 too, and +3 in lategame TvP if you can afford it. If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings. Spread them to mitigate Archons' damage. Don't bother with the all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes. Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
 1. What is a basic 2v2 terranplayer opening into expanding and how late should i expand; 2. Do i need to wall of our entrance or not. Some other terrans did it in my first 5 matches, some not. thx! 2v2 is fun, but hard | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On December 25 2012 16:39 halpimcat wrote: Also, what's the best way to counter phoenix/collosus? This seems like such an elementary question but whenever I encounter it I can never get the viking count high enough to kill both the phoenix and colossus during the battle. Is there something different I have to do positionally to win? By the time my vikings can start chewing away the collosus they've been in the battle long enough to kill most of my bio, and it's harder to snipe them with the phoenix roaming about. Maybe my composition has to change? I have no idea Adding to the last post I also wanna mention that Vikings range give them a tactical advantage over Phoenix, the Phoenix have to fly over marines to fight. Marines will not attack them automatically if there are other units in range, but if you target fire them with small groups of marines they will melt. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 25 2012 20:46 govie wrote: Just started 2v2, after 5 matches they put me in gold, but i really look like a fool 1. What is a basic 2v2 terranplayer opening into expanding and how late should i expand; 2. Do i need to wall of our entrance or not. Some other terrans did it in my first 5 matches, some not. thx! 2v2 is fun, but hard Don't FE in 2v2. Gas first and hellions work wonders. Always wall off. Go either 2 rax into medivacs, or gas first hellions into banshee harass. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 25 2012 06:21 Kasu wrote: I'm planning on swapping my old TvT build (ThorZaIN FE) for CC first into 1/1/1. To aid me in this, could someone knowledgable give a quick (1 sentence or so) explanation on how to hold some common cheeses/pressures I might struggle against? Any general advice for this (or any CC-first) build would also be much appreciated! I don't know the level you're playing at but you really have to wonder if getting 2-3 extra SCVs is worth the overwhelming amount of trouble you will get by playing CC first rax gas. I recommend using this build only if you know your opponent is likely going to fast expand himself and/or does not scout so he cannot take advantage of the early vulnerability of such a build. 1 rax FE → dual gas → 1-1-1 is a lot safer; honestly below GM level I am fairly sure playing CC rax gas is pointless. Or maybe you were talking about CC first → 2 rax → dual gas? (Not much point either as the delayed gases make your Factory and Starport too late to deal with some pressure builds, unlike 1 rax FE → dual gas → 1-1-1.) On December 25 2012 16:39 halpimcat wrote: Also, what's the best way to counter phoenix/collosus? This seems like such an elementary question but whenever I encounter it I can never get the viking count high enough to kill both the phoenix and colossus during the battle. Is there something different I have to do positionally to win? By the time my vikings can start chewing away the collosus they've been in the battle long enough to kill most of my bio, and it's harder to snipe them with the phoenix roaming about. Maybe my composition has to change? I have no idea On December 25 2012 16:52 NoZyneighbor wrote: This was recently answered in this thread by TheDwf but I will just copy what he said Regarding numbers my answer was for Grobyc's case against the particular 2-bases all-in he encountered; the rest is valid but against 3-bases Phoenixes/Colossi you have to get even more Vikings, probably ~30. I remember a game from Taeja on his stream, back in the days when Xel'Naga Caverns was still on the map pool; a pity it is probably lost in the depths of the Internet as it was a textbook example of how to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi. You can also check Ver's answer: On August 25 2012 15:50 Ver wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 21 2012 04:24 ViceRoyce wrote: How to deal with colossus phoenix composition? Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore. Taeja played this way in the game I saw, building ~30 Vikings and ignoring Phoenixes in the main engagement. On December 25 2012 20:46 govie wrote: Just started 2v2, after 5 matches they put me in gold, but i really look like a fool 1. What is a basic 2v2 terranplayer opening into expanding and how late should i expand; 2. Do i need to wall of our entrance or not. Some other terrans did it in my first 5 matches, some not. thx! 2v2 is fun, but hard 1. Due to the old map pool a lot of agressive/pressure openings are viable: 12/14, 2 rax Reactor first (the TvP build order), gasless 3 rax, Reactor Hellion (gas first variant included), various 1-1-1 openings, etc. Since you can build your CC inbase you can expand earlier than Protoss but at your level adjust your expand timing depending on the agressivity of your opponents. 2. Yes, and don't forget to wall “backdoor rocks entries” too (e. g. Ruins of Tarsonis, High Orbit). Oh, and beware with the old trick of a Terran (Reaper, Scan) or a Zerg (Overlord) giving Protoss vision of the high ground so he can warp units from the low ground. Make sure you have vision at the edges of your base. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On December 25 2012 23:52 iAmJeffReY wrote: Don't FE in 2v2. Gas first and hellions work wonders. Always wall off. Go either 2 rax into medivacs, or gas first hellions into banshee harass. I played with a plat. zergplayer and he didnt like that i walled of our entrance. So, do i need to wall of my own base or our main entrance too both bases? Because i got some "noob" thrown at me, im confused | ||
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InfusedLau
18 Posts
On December 25 2012 20:54 kyllinghest wrote: Adding to the last post I also wanna mention that Vikings range give them a tactical advantage over Phoenix, the Phoenix have to fly over marines to fight. Marines will not attack them automatically if there are other units in range, but if you target fire them with small groups of marines they will melt. If you press hold position on your army marines will shoot the phoenixes instead of running towards the colossi. If you are on max supply then try and build some missile turrets near where you are going to engage/defend to kill the phoenixes even faster. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On December 26 2012 04:53 govie wrote: I played with a plat. zergplayer and he didnt like that i walled of our entrance. So, do i need to wall of my own base or our main entrance too both bases? Because i got some "noob" thrown at me, im confused Wall if there is a zerg on the other team and share control. If there isn't a Zerg on the other team, walling is optional and mostly useful to hide some sort of tech. I never wall vs double Terran unless I scout that at least one hasn't taken gas. If your ally doesn't like it, explain to him that ling rush vs a Terran with no wall is an auto loss, so he can find a Protoss friend to team with or go play a game other than Starcraft II, because that is just how it works. Sim City around your main is possible, but it is a pain in the ass and offers your ally no protection on fortress maps, so why put yourself at a disadvantage? After the threat of early ling runbys is gone, you can keep the depot at your wall lowered if it bugs them. Edit RE what theDWF said: ALWAYS make your first non-wall depot by the backdoor rocks or the potential drop/low ground warpin location. (The dark corner of your base, every map has one.) Nothing pisses me off more than losing because I didn't follow my own simple rule about this. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
How do you scout vs the protoss arsenal? I'm having a lot of trouble holding two base all-ins, because even when I know something is coming, I don't know if it's dts, blink, immortal bust, warp prism, etc.Preparing for all possible busts seems inefficient and I'm afraid to move out with more than a handful of marines when I'm in the dark because the unupgraded rines could easily be caught and killed off. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On December 26 2012 18:06 halpimcat wrote: Thanks for the answers to the phoenix colossus question. But that only happens about once every 300 games. This is a much bigger issue: Winning with ease Just scan or scout with scv at 6:20 and look robotfacility (and what other buildings are producing), all the info u need is in that topic! | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
Would it be worth it to go for ghosts with emp cloak and nukes instead of ravens? I guess the t has the tech labs for marauders already. Just kind of theorycrafting here and I want to know what the rest of terrans (especially some of the really good ones in here think). | ||
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geokilla
Canada8246 Posts
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On December 27 2012 16:10 geokilla wrote: Somehow... I just lost to mass reapers. I scouted a 1 Rax into gas into 3 rax reaper build. I went 1 Rax FE... How the hell do you beat that? It pretty much one shot my marines and single tank that I had out. Yes I was supply blocked, but 3 extra marines wouldn't have helped considering he had like 5 reapers left.. Depends on map, but siege tank with siege mode should be enough with marine support | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On December 27 2012 04:18 Nick_54 wrote: What do you guys think of the ghost transition in tvz similar to what Gumiho has done in the past few tvzs. Say when it starts to get towards the end game where terran is getting up to 4+ bases vs a zerg with a hive tech army. Terran probably has 8 rax or so, 2 facs, and a port. The general strategy is to go up to 3+ ports and then get vikings and I guess ravens. Would it be worth it to go for ghosts with emp cloak and nukes instead of ravens? I guess the t has the tech labs for marauders already. Just kind of theorycrafting here and I want to know what the rest of terrans (especially some of the really good ones in here think). Infestors are too fat to make emp good against them, its just mostly to snipe the infestors. Its only worth to get few ghosts to snipe infestors unless you are nuking bases, but sniping infestors is all what ghosts bring for direct battles | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
I scout quick double gas and I go 1 rax fe into 3 additional raxes for more marines. (This style has fallen off the metagame?) Anyway, it turns out his expanding after all. (Should I stick to a standard 1 rax fe -> 3 rax build even when scouting double gas?) I take a quick third, start double engie upgrades, infrastucture etc and so forth. I snipe his 3rd nexus while doing so. First battle: I am up in upgrades, take my forth, and move to attack his 3rd, maxed. We trade pretty evenly here, 5k vs 6k ish. However, his 3rd is unscratched throughout the battle. Should I have targetted fire? Subsequent battles: Both of us overproduce workers, myself at 80, he at 85, and my upgrade lead starts to slide away. I move out each time with a maxed army, and engage him at his forth (daybreak forth base is pretty much the centre of the map), and each time, I trade horribly, 10k vs 20k in resources loss for example. Other points: 1) In most cases, I move out, knowing that I have either insufficent vikings or ghosts, but since I am maxed, I have no choice but to trade. 2) While his HTs are always clumped, my ghosts always killed murdered by colos while trying to emp 3) The design of the map seems to force the aggressor(myself), to fight in a choke, how do I avoid poor engagements? Thanks in advance! | ||
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Persh
Estonia108 Posts
I know how to transition to mech and there are lots of build orders of it, but I haven't had much luck finding any for bio-tank. Every time I watch some stream, they sacrifice their hellions and banshees and then they're floating over 1000 minerals and much gas, so they just make a lot of barracks, 2 ebays and switch their factory and starport add-ons, but what would be the correct order? Thanks! | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On December 27 2012 20:33 redt wrote: How to transition from hellion-banshee to marine-tank? I know how to transition to mech and there are lots of build orders of it, but I haven't had much luck finding any for bio-tank. Every time I watch some stream, they sacrifice their hellions and banshees and then they're floating over 1000 minerals and much gas, so they just make a lot of barracks, 2 ebays and switch their factory and starport add-ons, but what would be the correct order? Thanks! I'm a fan of the way TaeJa's transitions, but it's definitely on the greedy side. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70621 His order is typically 2x ebay, swap addons after 6-8 hellions, and then add raxes. Swapping the raxes and the ebays is slightly more immediately safe, as-is getting more hellions/banshees before swapping, which some players choose to do. There's no 'correct' order, but I favor materializing map control afforded by hellion/banshee in the form of upgrades. | ||
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Persh
Estonia108 Posts
On December 27 2012 20:45 iEchoic wrote: I'm a fan of the way TaeJa's transitions, but it's definitely on the greedy side. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70621 His order is typically 2x ebay, swap addons after 6-8 hellions, and then add raxes. Swapping the raxes and the ebays is slightly more immediately safe, as-is getting more hellions/banshees before swapping, which some players choose to do. There's no 'correct' order, but I favor materializing map control afforded by hellion/banshee in the form of upgrades. Thanks! Especially giving the replay is very helpful  | ||
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