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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
What's the best way to micro vikings in large viking vs viking battles? My thinking is that ideally you would grab 7 (assuming equal upgrades, 7 will one-shot a viking), and shift-focus fire a few enemy vikings, then grab another 7 (or the remainder if less than 7) and do the same. Would only want to queue a few (2-3?) at a time, since you want to one-shot enemies without overkill, which goes away once one of your 7 dies. Also I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to grab 8 per group if possible because of that.
Trying to get a sense of how important the various aspects of this are. ie: 7 to eliminate overkill on the first shot, 8 to eliminate overkill if one dies, worrying about having 7 or 8 at all vs just boxing a bunch (at least 7) and focusing with them. (If I box 9, is it worth the time to shift-click 1-2 out, or should I just use them to kill an enemy viking _right now_?
Maybe more logical would be to know how many you started with and just split it evenly. IE: if you have less than 14, just focus with all of them. 14 or more, split into two even groups and shift-focus with both. You lose any potential kills the un-microed ones might be doing in that case, but you gain simplicity and a buffer for your vikings dying. (If you had more than 21 you could split into 3 groups, but personally I expect that'd be beyond me.)
Another aspect is PDDs. If you've dropped a bunch, having vikings in your groups of 7 would be less of a concern. If your opponent has, then until they run out it doesn't matter what you're shooting at, so the value of getting a good split would increase, whereas the value of focusing something down right away would decrease.
I assume this would apply similarly to colossi and corruptors/broods, but in those cases there's likely a lot of potentially more important stuff to worry about. In TvT there are occasionally situations where you really have nothing to do but micro your vikings, which at my low-apm diamond level is necessary for these sorts of shenanigans.
So... what should I be doing?
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Having Gold/Platinum level trouble with Protoss.
The main problem seems to be this: the way micro in those end game battles scales makes it very difficult for me as Terran in this matchup. If we are on equal supply and equal upgrades, I will only very, very rarely - 1 in 20 games - have anything happen other than being annihilated in the battle. I just don't have the skills to do all the micro necessary against colossus and storms. What's always been suggested to me is that I need to keep the Protoss on his back heal and try to slow him down in the mid-game with things like multi-pronged drops and that sort of thing. Now I'm quite capable of this and manage it fairly well against zerg.
The problem is that when I watch the GSL and whatnot, these drops work in large part because pros are constantly trying to cut their corners as tight as possible and maintain map presence and all of that, so they don't have a lot of defense in their base and their army is out of position to respond to drops. In Gold and Platinum levels, people don't play this way but play extremely safe and as a result, anytime I try to drop - even in multiple places - he always has either defense available already or his main army very nearby. As a result, there isn't any slowing the Protoss down to happen and it simply leads to a 200/200 battle which is extraordinarily hard for me to win.
What can I do here?
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On December 22 2012 15:48 Lazerlike42 wrote:
Having Gold/Platinum level trouble with Protoss.
The main problem seems to be this: the way micro in those end game battles scales makes it very difficult for me as Terran in this matchup. If we are on equal supply and equal upgrades, I will only very, very rarely - 1 in 20 games - have anything happen other than being annihilated in the battle. I just don't have the skills to do all the micro necessary against colossus and storms. What's always been suggested to me is that I need to keep the Protoss on his back heal and try to slow him down in the mid-game with things like multi-pronged drops and that sort of thing. Now I'm quite capable of this and manage it fairly well against zerg.
The problem is that when I watch the GSL and whatnot, these drops work in large part because pros are constantly trying to cut their corners as tight as possible and maintain map presence and all of that, so they don't have a lot of defense in their base and their army is out of position to respond to drops. In Gold and Platinum levels, people don't play this way but play extremely safe and as a result, anytime I try to drop - even in multiple places - he always has either defense available already or his main army very nearby. As a result, there isn't any slowing the Protoss down to happen and it simply leads to a 200/200 battle which is extraordinarily hard for me to win.
What can I do here?
if u see them playing safe u can get more greedy. Either way tho u will have to play them in the lategame so getting down ur micro in practice will be a big plus. Also, work on ur macro and attack timings so that even if they are being defensive u can still kill them. 1 army 2 ghost 3 vikings. im sure u know the drill its all about practicing it. I suggest going on micro trainer and playing with a friend.
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On December 22 2012 12:17 ff7legend wrote:
Hey in TvP how do you prepare for their possible unit composition? How can you predict how many ghost and vikings you will need to deal with them. Is there a money number for each that you should just aim to get?
in the lategame
12-16 vikings
10-20 ghosts
bio mostly marines with some maruaders
6-8 medivacs
u want enought vikings to one shot colosi and enough ghost to blanket all the archons and zelots/templar. with that army composition u should be able to beat every composition they come up with with proper micro
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Hey guys, because I took a break off from SC2 for a few months I am not sure what to do against zerg. In the OP it said to do hellion banshee but it's too vague. Like what do I do after hellion banshee? what is the point? are there specific timings I am going for? specific compositions? a goal? I am very confused, it would be greatly helpful if someone helped me.
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On December 22 2012 15:48 Lazerlike42 wrote:
Having Gold/Platinum level trouble with Protoss.
The main problem seems to be this: the way micro in those end game battles scales makes it very difficult for me as Terran in this matchup. If we are on equal supply and equal upgrades, I will only very, very rarely - 1 in 20 games - have anything happen other than being annihilated in the battle. I just don't have the skills to do all the micro necessary against colossus and storms. What's always been suggested to me is that I need to keep the Protoss on his back heal and try to slow him down in the mid-game with things like multi-pronged drops and that sort of thing. Now I'm quite capable of this and manage it fairly well against zerg.
The problem is that when I watch the GSL and whatnot, these drops work in large part because pros are constantly trying to cut their corners as tight as possible and maintain map presence and all of that, so they don't have a lot of defense in their base and their army is out of position to respond to drops. In Gold and Platinum levels, people don't play this way but play extremely safe and as a result, anytime I try to drop - even in multiple places - he always has either defense available already or his main army very nearby. As a result, there isn't any slowing the Protoss down to happen and it simply leads to a 200/200 battle which is extraordinarily hard for me to win.
What can I do here?
I'm not trying to be brief here, but I had the same problem as you when protoss was maxed (just at a higher level). I decided to mech TvP. It takes less APM but more cerebral and positional in-game strategy. I've been meching ever since at a top master level. At your level i would just turtle in base and costant drop and run-by harass with hellions while your army count grows. You can also take the same approach with cloak banshees. If you forget to macro it is not a problem since tank and some thors can eat up money pretty quick. The whole point in mech, regardless of level, is keep your opponent busy defending while you build up. Its a style of play you might consider. There are not many of us out there but many GM's and high masters still pull it off. But I would say it is easier at lower levels to use this strategy.
Edit: Do a search on Lyyna. He is a high masters (mech only) terran that has many good builds.
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Anyone has a replay showing how to beat archon chargelot+ storm in TvP? i cant do it and i lose always.
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On December 23 2012 08:46 -niL wrote:
Hey guys, because I took a break off from SC2 for a few months I am not sure what to do against zerg. In the OP it said to do hellion banshee but it's too vague. Like what do I do after hellion banshee? what is the point? are there specific timings I am going for? specific compositions? a goal? I am very confused, it would be greatly helpful if someone helped me.
Basically the flow of the game is 1 rax expo into hellion banshee and a third, and then you go into either double armory or engineering bay, and add on more factories/barracks. You want to push when 2/2 finishes to hit a pre-hive timing, which is your best hope of winning the game.
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When going for bio, I don't know how many barracks I should have per base/oc; nor how many techlabs versus reactors to get. Does anyone have any general guidelines?
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Ok so in TvZ I've taken a liking to a custom semi-allin of mine-5rax 2fac marine/thor (seems to work best on ohana)
I don't have supply numbers, but the general gist is
1 barracks (send first 3 marines+1 scv out to harass early)
2 Command centers (both in main)
2 barracks
2 gas
Factory + float down to natural
Factory
Armory after first fac finishes
2 Barracks
tech labs on both factories+2 barracks, 2-3 reactors on barracks
Engi bay somewhere in there
Stim, CShield, +1 armor for vehicles and infantry
Attack with 3-5 thors and X marines, pull some scv's from main to prevent mining out and land 3rd CC in case of emergency
So far my attacks hit around 13:30, but i'm only diamond so I'm sure it could be improved (or it sucks, in which case you could just ignore this ^^; )
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On December 23 2012 14:34 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
When going for bio, I don't know how many barracks I should have per base/oc; nor how many techlabs versus reactors to get. Does anyone have any general guidelines?
It really depends on what matchup you are talking about and what is the enemy composition
Ideally it would be 5 raxes on 2 base, 9 on 3 bases, with upgrades and medivac production, and ghosts if you are playing TvP
In TvZ you would go almost all marine with one or 2 raxes with tech labs and with about 2 with reactors which you get in the beginning with most of your with no add ons, if you scout him going ultras you can add on tech labs and produce 1 or 2 waves of marauders. But pure bio is not very good in TvZ.
In TvP you it would depend on whether he is going collossus or templar, you would want to have about 60% to 40% marine marauder ratio, if he is going templars you would want about 80% to 20% marine marauder ratio. But late game wise you would want to have a large amount of ghosts, primary marines, with some marauders and medicvacs and depending on how much collossus he has a decent amount of vikings.
In TvT I am not really sure as I do not play bio in TvT.
There are some pretty decent posts in the strategy forum such as
Only Bio TvZ - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554
- but I would recommend against the combat shield timing as it is really gimmcky as can only work if the zerg is not able to scout it at all
Bomber's FE into 3-rax, 1-gas opening TvP - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340714
Flash's Concussive 3CC - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=365229
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On December 23 2012 16:50 GTPGlitch wrote:
Ok so in TvZ I've taken a liking to a custom semi-allin of mine-5rax 2fac marine/thor (seems to work best on ohana)
I don't have supply numbers, but the general gist is
1 barracks (send first 3 marines+1 scv out to harass early)
2 Command centers (both in main)
2 barracks
2 gas
Factory + float down to natural
Factory
Armory after first fac finishes
2 Barracks
tech labs on both factories+2 barracks, 2-3 reactors on barracks
Engi bay somewhere in there
Stim, CShield, +1 armor for vehicles and infantry
Attack with 3-5 thors and X marines, pull some scv's from main to prevent mining out and land 3rd CC in case of emergency
So far my attacks hit around 13:30, but i'm only diamond so I'm sure it could be improved (or it sucks, in which case you could just ignore this ^^; )
How many scvs, marines and thors you have with your push.
If the push hits that late I could see just infestor baneling army killing that easily on creep
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On December 23 2012 08:46 -niL wrote:
Hey guys, because I took a break off from SC2 for a few months I am not sure what to do against zerg. In the OP it said to do hellion banshee but it's too vague. Like what do I do after hellion banshee? what is the point? are there specific timings I am going for? specific compositions? a goal? I am very confused, it would be greatly helpful if someone helped me.
The whole point of hellion banshee is to keep the zerg back in his base and on the defensive. Ideally you should be able to get some nice drone kills as well. The tactic should make it very hard for zerg to attack you, or at least without you knowing about it. This allows you to macro up nicely and make a nice powerful midgame push.
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I recently ran into a zerg using roach hydra, against my bio, later he mixed in infestors and banes.
If I open bio, should I go for more marauders since he barely had lings?
I almost won only because I added 2 more facts and was pumping tanks 3 at a time, but roach hydra with good creep spread an upgrades is actually hard to deal with using bio.
Should I try to transition into mech? What's the response against roach hydra if I open bio?
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When I go for Bio I usually go Marauder/BF Hellion heavy with enough Marines sprinkled in to cover for Mutalisks and shoot down Overlords. They are usually supported by 1/2 Ravens and Medivacs or Banshees.
I tend to upgrade the Armor on the Hellions so that both air and ground get more armor against Hydras and Mutas.
The Ravens are amazingly useful for spotting Creep Tumors, throwing down PDDs against Hydras and dropping Auto-Turrets to help in general. Against an Infestor play you can add in Ghosts.
In the case of mass Baneling, I always ensure I have my Marines and Hellions on a separate control group.
When the Banelings roll in, send your army forward, hit your Marine/Hellion control group and pull them back.
The majority of the Banelings will usually hit the Marauders.
Widow Mines are also very effective against Banelings as they kill all the Banelings in their splash radius.
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On December 23 2012 20:40 mizU wrote:
I recently ran into a zerg using roach hydra, against my bio, later he mixed in infestors and banes.
If I open bio, should I go for more marauders since he barely had lings?
I almost won only because I added 2 more facts and was pumping tanks 3 at a time, but roach hydra with good creep spread an upgrades is actually hard to deal with using bio.
Should I try to transition into mech? What's the response against roach hydra if I open bio?
since hydras do fantastic dps, it's hard to just go bio cost-per-cost; you can
- drop + outmacro, very fun to play style
- make tanks
anyway, I hope this roach/hydra gains popularity, zerg all-ins and abysmal playstyles are one of the few ways of winning tvz left for me these days
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On December 23 2012 08:46 -niL wrote:
Hey guys, because I took a break off from SC2 for a few months I am not sure what to do against zerg. In the OP it said to do hellion banshee but it's too vague. Like what do I do after hellion banshee? what is the point? are there specific timings I am going for? specific compositions? a goal? I am very confused, it would be greatly helpful if someone helped me.
Hi, I am in the same boat as you -niL. In fact, the last time I played I went 24-3 in platinum league, then lost my next 9 out of 10 to zerg. Since my return, I can say that I win 9 out of 10 zerg match-ups. Here is what I have done...
1) Studied, practiced, and attempt to perfect Polt's TvZ as was featured in the day 9 daily shown here; http://day9.tv/d/Day9/polts-tvz-beat-the-imba/
That is what I do.
2) In regards to the hellion banshee, there is no better explanation of it than by Apollo himself. He discusses it in his coaching video and provides a ton of information I never knew about. You can find that here: http://www.youtube.com/user/dignitasApollo
Go to the Improve with Apollo section and you will find one video where he coaches a Terran doing the banshee hellion opener.
Hope these resources help the way they helped me. Take care.
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In tvt i play purely MMM (without tanks). Even when i face a terran that plays Marine medivac tanks. I personally dont like the use of tanks because there only good in siege mode. Are MMM+banshees a good answer to MM+T to try to contain his aggresion towards my base to not get walled in so i can continue my drops in his expansions?
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On December 24 2012 02:34 govie wrote:
In tvt i play purely MMM (without tanks). Even when i face a terran that plays Marine medivac tanks. I personally dont like the use of tanks because there only good in siege mode. Are MMM+banshees a good answer to MM+T to try to contain his aggresion towards my base to not get walled in so i can continue my drops in his expansions?
I don't think there's a reliable way to combat marine tank with pure bio. Banshee's don't really work because your opponent can just scan and pick them off with marines. For awhile (a long time ago) I played around with pure marine + a couple ghosts to nuke and force my opponent to unsiege, then stim in, do damage, retreat before tanks sieged. In theory it's possible but it's extremely unforgiving.
TvT atm seems to be Marine Tank >> Bio > Mech > Marine Tank. I usually go Marine Tank and switch into Bio if my opponent is going Mech, although I've been playing around with Mech recently and enjoy it.
If you really want to play without tanks, I think you have to just be hyper aggressive and constantly catch your opponent unsieged and/or with small tank numbers. You can delay their pushes by having your army ready at their natural and force them to slow push across the map. If you end up getting contained, it's going to be hell to break out.
edit: It's definitely an uphill battle, I feel like you have to get lucky or vastly outplay your opponent to beat a marine / tank player with bio. GL!
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On December 24 2012 02:57 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 02:34 govie wrote:
In tvt i play purely MMM (without tanks). Even when i face a terran that plays Marine medivac tanks. I personally dont like the use of tanks because there only good in siege mode. Are MMM+banshees a good answer to MM+T to try to contain his aggresion towards my base to not get walled in so i can continue my drops in his expansions? I don't think there's a reliable way to combat marine tank with pure bio. Banshee's don't really work because your opponent can just scan and pick them off with marines. For awhile (a long time ago) I played around with pure marine + a couple ghosts to nuke and force my opponent to unsiege, then stim in, do damage, retreat before tanks sieged. In theory it's possible but it's extremely unforgiving. TvT atm seems to be Marine Tank >> Bio > Mech > Marine Tank. I usually go Marine Tank and switch into Bio if my opponent is going Mech, although I've been playing around with Mech recently and enjoy it. If you really want to play without tanks, I think you have to just be hyper aggressive and constantly catch your opponent unsieged and/or with small tank numbers. You can delay their pushes by having your army ready at their natural and force them to slow push across the map. If you end up getting contained, it's going to be hell to break out. edit: It's definitely an uphill battle, I feel like you have to get lucky or vastly outplay your opponent to beat a marine / tank player with bio. GL!
I'm bronze but learning, and my opponent today was gold. I did reasonably well and if i would have done more aggressive drops after my first drop, i could have won. I dont like tanks. To siege and unsiege, slowly moving forward. Forcing a stalemate. I like fastmoving guerilla warfare, thats why i asked
Could it be done with marauders+medivacs against the tanks and use mostly drops to snipe productionbuildings and then immediately push out with the Marauderball+Medivac? So that he cant rebuild a force fast enough when i kill it?
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EPT
