|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hey guys
I'm plat terran on eu and REALLY struggling v protoss, I guess it's partly because I never got to grips with the match up properly in the earlier leagues, up until silver league I marauder rushed every game then I went mech for ages. I'm tempted to go back to playing mech v toss but I feel like it gets pretty hard around this level especially with the immortal. I have won 12 of my last 18 games, none of the games I won were against toss and 5 of the games I lost were against toss. I make a lot mistakes in the games but I do that in tvz and tvt too and still manage to win at this level, I'm even beating diamond zergs now so I obviously have some really fundamental issues. I like to play macro when I can but I feel like you really can't do that in tvp as toss seems to require the least amount of bases plus I don't really understand the metagame, against t and z I can more or less read what they are doing based on when they take their bases/gas so any info on that for toss would be great.
Anyway here is a replay of me versus a toss player all help and critique is appreciated
http://drop.sc/285827
|
On December 19 2012 13:05 oucho wrote:Hey guys I'm plat terran on eu and REALLY struggling v protoss, I guess it's partly because I never got to grips with the match up properly in the earlier leagues, up until silver league I marauder rushed every game then I went mech for ages. I'm tempted to go back to playing mech v toss but I feel like it gets pretty hard around this level especially with the immortal. I have won 12 of my last 18 games, none of the games I won were against toss and 5 of the games I lost were against toss. I make a lot mistakes in the games but I do that in tvz and tvt too and still manage to win at this level, I'm even beating diamond zergs now so I obviously have some really fundamental issues. I like to play macro when I can but I feel like you really can't do that in tvp as toss seems to require the least amount of bases plus I don't really understand the metagame, against t and z I can more or less read what they are doing based on when they take their bases/gas so any info on that for toss would be great. Anyway here is a replay of me versus a toss player all help and critique is appreciated http://drop.sc/285827
OK, I'm only diamond, but I recently got a couple hours coaching from qxc on my TvP and it went from my worst to my best matchup. Many of the things I realized I had to work on I saw in your replay as well, so I hope this will help. Not going to talk about micro at all, just the macro things I noticed watching through once.
1) Early build order could be refined a bit IMO, although this is certainly a matter of preference. I'd suggest checking out the Bomber TvP build on Liquipedia, which is very similar to what you're doing, but should flow more smoothly. For example, by going 1 marine, CC, then second depot, and building the CC on the low ground, you should be able to have 50 scvs at 10 minutes (or 49 if your scout died), rather than the 45 you have here. Also your first gas was delayed by a few seconds, your tech lab seemed very delayed, and then you started a factory before stim. Presumably you'll want to get stim first, but if not, there's no point in getting that TL when you do.
2) You get supply blocked at 94 (as you move out). One thing qxc pointed out about supply blocks, is it's helpful to note to yourself specifically when you get blocked (94 and/or as I move out with 10 minute push or whatever) since you'll often do it at the same time without realizing it if you're just thinking "avoid getting supply blocked".
3) As you engage at his base, between 11:43-12:00, you're not building scvs. I found I was doing this too - continuing army production during engagements, but forgetting scvs.
4) Your 2-2 starts something like 30 seconds after your armory and double ebay finish instead of right away.
5) Your 3-3 don't start for maaaany minutes after your 2-2 finish, even though you're maxed and floating resources. Actually, you never got 3-3. No wonder you got crushed by his 3-1-3 army.
6) Your ghost academy goes down very late. Once you get your third CC and 5-rax up, you want to get your fourth gas, second ebay and armory and ghost academy asap. (Generally in that order unless you feel you need to prioritize ghosts over ups and/or get a second starport.) Then come the additional raxes beyond 5 (generally to ~8).
Then, you need to get ghosts! Many ghosts. Late game you ideally want to be EMPing his entire army, but at the very least you need them for HTs so you don't end up eating so many storms.
7) Once the ghost academy finishes, you want to get the Mobius upgrade immediately. And ideally instead of queuing up cloak at the same time you'll spend that money on a ghost (along with a couple more), then go back and get cloak once the energy upgrade finishes.
8) Your orbital energy gets quite high at several points. Use your location hotkeys, with one set to each base, and occasionally flip through them. You don't ever want to see orbital energy going over 100. That one's tricky, because you may feel like you're doing well keeping your money low, but in reality you could have had a lot more money with efficient muling.
9) I guess this one is partially micro - in the final battle you had only 3 vikings to his 4 colossi. You always want to have the right number of counter units if possible when you engage. (Vikings for colls, ghosts for HTs and archons (and eventually, to EMP everything and do DPS to zealots.)) IMO you want at least 2 vikings per colossus, but someone more knowledgeable might know better. You also only EMPed his HTs once. A full HT has 200 energy, so needs two EMPs (or snipes if they're spread out) to prevent storms. So in a way the Toss was right that you 'missed'.
--
There are micro things you could work on as well (spreading your army into a nice big concave and EMPing), but IMO you'll want to just focus on the macro stuff until it's really solid. Once you lose a game where you make SCVs constantly until 3 bases are saturated, keep orbital energy low the whole game, produce units out of all structures constantly without getting supply blocked, and get all your upgrades and tech structures right on time (especially that one), you can start worrying about that stuff again. I'd be willing to bet you'll be at least mid diamond by then though. 
|
On December 19 2012 10:25 habermas wrote:
Is it possible to hold 10 pool with CC first and late scouting (after rax)?
Yes if you build your CC and Barracks as part of the wall. If scouting after Barracks means after you started your Barracks (2'45 - 2'50), your scouting SCV should come across the oncoming Zerglings, so you can quickly close your wall with a second Supply Depot if you built your CC on lowground; obviously you will have to cancel this CC.
On December 19 2012 06:43 Marathi wrote:
When going for 11/11rax in TvZ on a 4-player map when should I send out my scouting worker to find their location? Should I then use that scv to build one of the 2 barracks?
No, you have no minerals to spare going early scout. Scout one position with the SCV building the first Barracks (after the Barracks is complete, I mean), then another position with the SCV building the second Barracks (same), so by ~3'45 at worst you will know where Zerg is. Rally Marines to the middle of the map until you know his starting position.
On December 19 2012 06:43 Marathi wrote:
If I don't kill the natural and/or hardly any workers and lose my bunkers/marines/scvs I should just leave right?
It depends, you can still try a Marine/SCV all-in hoping your opponent went into autopilot mode pressing the D key without bothering to scout.
On December 19 2012 20:42 TempestMaker wrote:
9) I guess this one is partially micro - in the final battle you had only 3 vikings to his 4 collossi. You always want to have the right number of counter units if possible when you engage. (Vikings for colls, ghosts for HTs and archons (and eventually, to EMP everything and do DPS to zealots.)) IMO you want at least 2 vikings per collossus, but someone more knowledgeable might know better.
More like 3-4 Vikings per Colossus. Against 4 Colossi you need 15-16 Vikings (depending on upgrades) so you can one-shot Colossi with focus fire.
|
Hi guys,
I was wondering if anyone had any replays of themselves deflecting early pressure using Polt's TvZ strategy, featured in Day[9] Daily #529. I need more film to study.
Day[9] Daily #529 - Polt's TvZ
When I get everything up and running I win. When I get immediate pressure it can go either way, even with a bunker (part of the build).
|
Hey terrans, I was wondering if any of you have any suggestions for TvTs in the last half of 2012. Would like to watch a good match or two to help me understand the match-up more.
|
So I just played a mid-high masters TvP game on Entombed and at the beginning of the game the guy says "I have an unbeatable allin vs terran that is unstoppable". Ok, that's cool. The game progresses and I notice is isn't taking a third when I poke in or scan. It's about 15 minutes in and I've just maxed with neither of us previously having taken notable damage. I'm on 3 base with 2-2 and 2 spare orbitals to land for a 4th and a 5th and I see his expected allin incoming.
He has 6 colossus, ~8-10 phoenix, 4-5 archons, a few stalkers and sentries, and then the rest zealots. I have maxed MMM viking army already pre-spread in to an arc and we engage. I target fire colossus with vikings, but they only kill 3 before the phoenix and archons kill them. Then he just rolls me with nearly half his army still intact and it's game.
Does anyone have any experience vs an allin like that? I knew it was coming the whole game and still died. My macro was generally pretty clean, I was basically maxed when he attacked. I engaged outside my nat in an arc because he had so many colossus. I feel like if I stayed in my nat as a choke point colossus would have just torn me up, and I couldnt answer them because of the phoenix.
Try to base trade? Do I make vikings at all? I'm so baffled how powerful that was. Mass bunker? His colossus seem like they could just outrange me and siege me if I did that. I didn't pull SCVs, but there were so many colossus/zealot/archon it seems like they wouldn't have done much anyway and I would have a dead eco if I held anyway.
|
|
|
On December 21 2012 08:30 Grobyc wrote:
So I just played a mid-high masters TvP game on Entombed and at the beginning of the game the guy says "I have an unbeatable allin vs terran that is unstoppable". Ok, that's cool. The game progresses and I notice is isn't taking a third when I poke in or scan. It's about 15 minutes in and I've just maxed with neither of us previously having taken notable damage. I'm on 3 base with 2-2 and 2 spare orbitals to land for a 4th and a 5th and I see his expected allin incoming.
He has 6 colossus, ~8-10 phoenix, 4-5 archons, a few stalkers and sentries, and then the rest zealots. I have maxed MMM viking army already pre-spread in to an arc and we engage. I target fire colossus with vikings, but they only kill 3 before the phoenix and archons kill them. Then he just rolls me with nearly half his army still intact and it's game.
Does anyone have any experience vs an allin like that? I knew it was coming the whole game and still died. My macro was generally pretty clean, I was basically maxed when he attacked. I engaged outside my nat in an arc because he had so many colossus. I feel like if I stayed in my nat as a choke point colossus would have just torn me up, and I couldnt answer them because of the phoenix.
Try to base trade? Do I make vikings at all? I'm so baffled how powerful that was. Mass bunker? His colossus seem like they could just outrange me and siege me if I did that. I didn't pull SCVs, but there were so many colossus/zealot/archon it seems like they wouldn't have done much anyway and I would have a dead eco if I held anyway.
Sounds 100% like a unit composition issue. From your description you need something like ~10 Ghosts and 20-25 Vikings to deal with his army; if you maxed mainly on Marines/Marauders with not enough Vikings you had no chance to overcome him. Don't worry, there is no magic at all in his all-in—which is particularly awful by the way—but like any TvP fight, you will get stomped if your unit composition is not appropriate.
|
On December 21 2012 20:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:30 Grobyc wrote:
So I just played a mid-high masters TvP game on Entombed and at the beginning of the game the guy says "I have an unbeatable allin vs terran that is unstoppable". Ok, that's cool. The game progresses and I notice is isn't taking a third when I poke in or scan. It's about 15 minutes in and I've just maxed with neither of us previously having taken notable damage. I'm on 3 base with 2-2 and 2 spare orbitals to land for a 4th and a 5th and I see his expected allin incoming.
He has 6 colossus, ~8-10 phoenix, 4-5 archons, a few stalkers and sentries, and then the rest zealots. I have maxed MMM viking army already pre-spread in to an arc and we engage. I target fire colossus with vikings, but they only kill 3 before the phoenix and archons kill them. Then he just rolls me with nearly half his army still intact and it's game.
Does anyone have any experience vs an allin like that? I knew it was coming the whole game and still died. My macro was generally pretty clean, I was basically maxed when he attacked. I engaged outside my nat in an arc because he had so many colossus. I feel like if I stayed in my nat as a choke point colossus would have just torn me up, and I couldnt answer them because of the phoenix.
Try to base trade? Do I make vikings at all? I'm so baffled how powerful that was. Mass bunker? His colossus seem like they could just outrange me and siege me if I did that. I didn't pull SCVs, but there were so many colossus/zealot/archon it seems like they wouldn't have done much anyway and I would have a dead eco if I held anyway. Sounds 100% like a unit composition issue. From your description you need something like ~10 Ghosts and 20-25 Vikings to deal with his army; if you maxed mainly on Marines/Marauders with not enough Vikings you had no chance to overcome him. Don't worry, there is no magic at all in his all-in—which is particularly awful by the way—but like any TvP fight, you will get stomped if your unit composition is not appropriate.
I was really unsure of the viking count in particular I suppose. It feels like you need to have enough to overcome the phoenix and colossus or you need to just make none and try to overpower him on the ground. I suppose I'll give your suggestion of the former a try if I encounter it again. Thanks for the input.
|
On December 21 2012 23:57 Grobyc wrote:
I was really unsure of the viking count in particular I suppose. It feels like you need to have enough to overcome the phoenix and colossus or you need to just make none and try to overpower him on the ground. I suppose I'll give your suggestion of the former a try if I encounter it again. Thanks for the input.
Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes/Stalkers/Archons before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades; well, you won't have more than +1 against such a strategy but against 3-bases Phoenixes/Colossi be sure to get +2 too, and +3 in lategame TvP if you can afford it. If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings. Spread them to mitigate Archons' damage.
Don't bother with the all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes.
Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi.
|
I am so sick of losing to doom drops in TvT. What do I do about them?
Missile Turrets and even patrolling Vikings just aren't enough when someone really wants to doom drop me... There are games when I've been so frustrated that I actually do the clearly bad move of building missile turrets on every possible square along the edge of my base and the other guy STILL manages to get his army off because when he comes in with 6 or more medivacs full of stuff, there is enough time to start to unload and kill the turrets before the medivacs die and, in a TvT, my forces are trying to maintain the front line so they are far enough away that bringing them back is not in time to save my production.
I just don't see pros suffering this fate, because in all honesty none of them ever try to do it to one another. There has to be a reason why. What is it?
|
On December 22 2012 04:02 Lazerlike42 wrote:
I am so sick of losing to doom drops in TvT. What do I do about them?
Missile Turrets and even patrolling Vikings just aren't enough when someone really wants to doom drop me... There are games when I've been so frustrated that I actually do the clearly bad move of building missile turrets on every possible square along the edge of my base and the other guy STILL manages to get his army off because when he comes in with 6 or more medivacs full of stuff, there is enough time to start to unload and kill the turrets before the medivacs die and, in a TvT, my forces are trying to maintain the front line so they are far enough away that bringing them back is not in time to save my production.
Which kind of scenario, mech vs bio or Marines/Tanks wars?
|
On December 22 2012 04:10 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 04:02 Lazerlike42 wrote:
I am so sick of losing to doom drops in TvT. What do I do about them?
Missile Turrets and even patrolling Vikings just aren't enough when someone really wants to doom drop me... There are games when I've been so frustrated that I actually do the clearly bad move of building missile turrets on every possible square along the edge of my base and the other guy STILL manages to get his army off because when he comes in with 6 or more medivacs full of stuff, there is enough time to start to unload and kill the turrets before the medivacs die and, in a TvT, my forces are trying to maintain the front line so they are far enough away that bringing them back is not in time to save my production. Which kind of scenario, mech vs bio or Marines/Tanks wars?
Happens in both.
|
Hi guys,
Does anyone know a good "sound" TvT opener, with replays to support it? Back in the day I used to study empirehappy since he did the same thing versus terran every game, and I was able to study his adjustments to various situations. I also knew his strategy was sound since he won almost every game on ladder. Seems like he mixes it up more now and is harder to study.
I do not like going 1rax, fast CC, into 2 more rax. I am not skilled enough to defend that versus a 1/1/1 all-in or cloak banshee, etc.
I am very systematic with my strategies and builds. I want to do one thing in TvT and perfect it. I also want my opener to be sound versus every situation assuming I scout it properly.
Any help would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
On December 22 2012 04:47 Lionbacker wrote:
Hi guys,
Does anyone know a good "sound" TvT opener, with replays to support it? Back in the day I used to study empirehappy since he did the same thing versus terran every game, and I was able to study his adjustments to various situations. I also knew his strategy was sound since he won almost every game on ladder. Seems like he mixes it up more now and is harder to study.
I do not like going 1rax, fast CC, into 2 more rax. I am not skilled enough to defend that versus a 1/1/1 all-in or cloak banshee, etc.
I am very systematic with my strategies and builds. I want to do one thing in TvT and perfect it. I also want my opener to be sound versus every situation assuming I scout it properly.
Any help would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1raxFE into 3 rax is standard, doable and FilterSC has a nice guide for it and can stop anything. If u are having trouble against 1 base PTZ-builds in general like i had, it could be your scouting sucks like mine did. My scouting improved thx too Winning with ease. In general scan at 6:20 and see what he's doing. Information is power!
1/1/1 --> Push out until medivacs arrive, dont let there tanks siege u in! Once u have medivacs, your gonna win.
Banshees --> Save 1 scan after 6:20, when u expect cloaked banshees before 10 minute mark.
|
I've been trying to do Bomber's TvZ style (14 minute 2/2 200 supply timing push, as talked about by Day 9 here: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-530/) and always come up like 20-23 supply short. It seems like I'm doing everything right but I always fall short. Anyone else doing this build?
|
On December 22 2012 08:08 Effay wrote:I've been trying to do Bomber's TvZ style (14 minute 2/2 200 supply timing push, as talked about by Day 9 here: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-530/) and always come up like 20-23 supply short. It seems like I'm doing everything right but I always fall short. Anyone else doing this build?
What you need to do is begin checking key benchmarks against what he's doing if you want to refine your build. For example, when do his 77th and 8th rax go down? When does his 2nd factory start? When does he stop producing SCV's and at how many. Just watch through games where he executes this build and make these benchmarks for yourself, then try to hit them.
|
On December 22 2012 00:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 23:57 Grobyc wrote:
I was really unsure of the viking count in particular I suppose. It feels like you need to have enough to overcome the phoenix and colossus or you need to just make none and try to overpower him on the ground. I suppose I'll give your suggestion of the former a try if I encounter it again. Thanks for the input. Yes, actually you overmake Vikings so you can ignore Phoenixes (don't waste shots on them, they're not the damage dealers in his army) and kill Colossi reasonably fast without losing all your Vikings to Phoenixes/Stalkers/Archons before they get the job done. Be sure to get air attack upgrades; well, you won't have more than +1 against such a strategy but against 3-bases Phoenixes/Colossi be sure to get +2 too, and +3 in lategame TvP if you can afford it. If you have enough Ghosts, try to hit Colossi too with EMP so you can divide your focus fire and kill 2 Colossi instead of one at the beginning of the fight when you still have enough Vikings. Spread them to mitigate Archons' damage. Don't bother with the all-ground approach, it's generally impossible to deal with 3+ Colossi without Vikings unless you badly outnumber him. Uncontested Colossi just deal way too much damage, you will lose like 10+ supply each time they attack and his Zealot wall won't even be down by the time most of your bio is reduced to ashes. Needless to say, you need a second Starport to deal with Phoenixes/Colossi.
Alright, I'll make sure to give that a shot next time I suspect such a thing
|
Hey in TvP how do you prepare for their possible unit composition? How can you predict how many ghost and vikings you will need to deal with them. Is there a money number for each that you should just aim to get?
|
On December 22 2012 04:02 Lazerlike42 wrote:
I am so sick of losing to doom drops in TvT. What do I do about them?
Missile Turrets and even patrolling Vikings just aren't enough when someone really wants to doom drop me... There are games when I've been so frustrated that I actually do the clearly bad move of building missile turrets on every possible square along the edge of my base and the other guy STILL manages to get his army off because when he comes in with 6 or more medivacs full of stuff, there is enough time to start to unload and kill the turrets before the medivacs die and, in a TvT, my forces are trying to maintain the front line so they are far enough away that bringing them back is not in time to save my production.
I just don't see pros suffering this fate, because in all honesty none of them ever try to do it to one another. There has to be a reason why. What is it?
Well i am only Diamond but i have not encountered a doom drop since low plat league, the thing why you dont se it at high level play is becouse they keep moving around and poking and scouting out , always knowing where the army is. Then if he pick up half just run in and cross is. Ofc it depends on the base situation but if you are at 3 bases you should be able to send part of your army to attack/drop and the rest home to defend and starve the army . of course its hard losing stuff in the main but it takes alot of multitasking from his side , make him take more decisions. Another part is the only times i have seen doom drops without being desparate are when they have full mapcontrol and you are in the dark, at that point the counter attacking options is kinda hard to pull of.
Other tips i have used thou the year is leave a siege tank or two in your sim city.
I just feel your focusing to much on a single problem then seeing it might be fix if you improve the big picture play.
These are just points from my belief and personal experience , after all i have not that much experiense
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
