EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 399
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Kid-Fox
Canada400 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On November 16 2012 17:36 Kid-Fox wrote: ForGG and Taeja.Hey fellow terrans, just a quick question here on TvZ. I'm a low masters who got in with pure multitasking and macro, and I feel like I've started figuring out TvP, but getting lost in TvT and TvZ. In the current metagame, what is the most preferable composition to get? Pure bio, marine/tank, or straight mech? I won several games for a while going mech until I suffered some hard losses to BL infestor and switched back to marine tank, but I'm a little dumbfounded as to what to do. What is the best tvz composition in the current metagame and which pro should I follow for that? I'll default to Mvp if nothing else. Mech is currently favoured in both match ups but marine tank is easier to play. | ||
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CurseDawg
Portugal31 Posts
On November 17 2012 00:57 GARcher wrote: ForGG and Taeja. Mech is currently favoured in both match ups but marine tank is easier to play. Actually i think marine tank is harder to play. Mech you just need to turtle toa certain point and move on, rine tank you have to be more active with drops / spliting, my opinion at least. Im Masters T, and currently going rine tank in both match up to practice my macro and multitasking. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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Wardi
England896 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:42 Olsson wrote: Help me with TvZ. I'm masters btw. It doesn't matter whatever the FUCK I do versus zerg, I can go CC first into 1rax into a third CC before adding raxes and going gasless for like six minutes. I can go something more aggressive such as 1rax, cc into 3rax bio with combat shield push and then stim push. But it doesn't matter one bit, they'll always have a better economy than me and always have the units. What the fuck am I supposed to do? Doesn't anyone else also have this issue? Have you tried Hellion Banshee into Marine Tank? You can generally take good map control to place your ~7.20 third at your third location at ~10 minutes, while getting up a lot of production and upgrades. You can also do some nice harass with it as well. I do this every game and I never feel I am "behind in economy" from my opening. | ||
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Assaulter
Lithuania324 Posts
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GARcher
Canada294 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:42 Olsson wrote: Help me with TvZ. I'm masters btw. It doesn't matter whatever the FUCK I do versus zerg, I can go CC first into 1rax into a third CC before adding raxes and going gasless for like six minutes. I can go something more aggressive such as 1rax, cc into 3rax bio with combat shield push and then stim push. But it doesn't matter one bit, they'll always have a better economy than me and always have the units. What the fuck am I supposed to do? Doesn't anyone else also have this issue? Yes. Zergs these days are pretty greedy and it's pretty hard to punish them for that because they learned to sim city against stuff like hellion harass. Reapers are useless against queens now. So what you do is be even more greedy. The guy below you said pretty well to open hellion banshee. It's pretty safe against stuff like all ins. Then you can transition in to marine tank or mech once you have your third orbital. Bio at the moment is just not good unless you have incredible micro because of the amount of effort required to split against banelings and fungals. On November 18 2012 07:01 Assaulter wrote: Hey everyone, masters terran here, i'm going mech every game against zerg and doing pretty good, except the games i get 2 base all inned. I go cc first into 16 rax 17 gas then reactor hellions and cloak banshee, but the banshee doesn't come fast enough and against roaches i am forced to lift off my natural and lose some scvs, and against baneling all ins i usually die because he just has way too much lings and like 6 banes while i have only 2 hellions, should i just deal with it/change my build to 1 rax expand, because this happens due to going cc first or is it actually really hard to stop all ins from zerg with mech openings? It is pretty hard to hold off early all ins against a Zerg if you don't have a high enough banshee count. But IMO you can be a little bit safer going 1 rax expand because you have your orbital up first. It gives you more leeway to fall back on once something disgusting comes from the Zerg. And usually by the time you are about to throw down a CC at your natural, you should have a good idea of whether or not the zerg is going for an all in by looking at their gas timings. And if they delay it until their ling pops and kills you SCV, it will come late and you will have more stuff to deal with it. | ||
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loleq
13 Posts
http://drop.sc/276636 I have no idea about what I have done wrong. Can anyone help me? Maybe I'll add some info... It's a TvZ. I tried making helions and banshees. It all went pretty well until the guy had gone mass hydras...I started making siege tanks, but it didn't help. Also, I might have an idea on why I have failed. No upgrades and not enough siege tanks might have been the problem, but I'm not quite sure. | ||
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Wardi
England896 Posts
On November 18 2012 07:01 Assaulter wrote: Hey everyone, masters terran here, i'm going mech every game against zerg and doing pretty good, except the games i get 2 base all inned. I go cc first into 16 rax 17 gas then reactor hellions and cloak banshee, but the banshee doesn't come fast enough and against roaches i am forced to lift off my natural and lose some scvs, and against baneling all ins i usually die because he just has way too much lings and like 6 banes while i have only 2 hellions, should i just deal with it/change my build to 1 rax expand, because this happens due to going cc first or is it actually really hard to stop all ins from zerg with mech openings? I'm not completely sure on if your build gets marines out, but usually a bunker with 2-3 marines helps a LOT with good SCV repair control alongside the Hellions to buy time for the Banshee. As you should be getting up a third orbital in your base pretty quickly you should be okay to take some damage, so just try and minimise the damage until your banshee comes up. | ||
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Bwall
Sweden145 Posts
On November 18 2012 07:01 Assaulter wrote: Hey everyone, masters terran here, i'm going mech every game against zerg and doing pretty good, except the games i get 2 base all inned. I go cc first into 16 rax 17 gas then reactor hellions and cloak banshee, but the banshee doesn't come fast enough and against roaches i am forced to lift off my natural and lose some scvs, and against baneling all ins i usually die because he just has way too much lings and like 6 banes while i have only 2 hellions, should i just deal with it/change my build to 1 rax expand, because this happens due to going cc first or is it actually really hard to stop all ins from zerg with mech openings? Try going for 15 rax/16 gas instead, you cut scvs for a few seconds but your banshee will be out faster, and those seconds are important. You will have a harder time defending some builds with really early gas, but for ladder I wouldn't mind, it'll help you with crisis management and micro. If you plan on playing tournaments a 1 rax FE with 2x gas before depot is a safer opening you can alternate with. | ||
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Bazy
Poland22 Posts
http://drop.sc/276655 | ||
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Marathi
298 Posts
this is the BO I am using atm: + Show Spoiler + 10 supply 12 ref 13 rax 16 OC 16 Factory 16 Supply 19 Refinery (2) Starport when Fact complete TL on Fact !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SCAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Place eBay if see opponent going banshee SWAP TL onto Starport Cloak + Banshee (1) Reactor on Rax TL on Factory Banshee (2) Siege Tank Siege Tank, Siege Tech Siege Tank Push out with: 2 banshee 3 tanks 18 marines (I think I can tweak this build to build TL on rax and build starport onto it for slightly faster banshees, which a lot of pros are doing now) I noticed on the first page of this thread, it lists the 1base 1/1/1 as an all-in, so instead of planting a CC is it worth pulling SCVs to help with my attack? I like to try and play builds where I can be aggressive early on with the chance to outright win the game, but if it fails have something to fall back on. But I've noticed lately that it seems to be more of a choice of long term macro passivity with bits of pressure here and there to get an advantage, or just all-in builds. Thanks EU Gold Terran | ||
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Wardi
England896 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:02 Marathi wrote: quick question guys when is a good time to plant a CC when you're going 1base 1/1/1 - the gas first cloakshee variant (pressure with cloakshees and follow up with 1/1/1) this is the BO I am using atm: + Show Spoiler + 10 supply 12 ref 13 rax 16 OC 16 Factory 16 Supply 19 Refinery (2) Starport when Fact complete TL on Fact !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SCAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Place eBay if see opponent going banshee SWAP TL onto Starport Cloak + Banshee (1) Reactor on Rax TL on Factory Banshee (2) Siege Tank Siege Tank, Siege Tech Siege Tank Push out with: 2 banshee 3 tanks 18 marines (I think I can tweak this build to build TL on rax and build starport onto it for slightly faster banshees, which a lot of pros are doing now) I noticed on the first page of this thread, it lists the 1base 1/1/1 as an all-in, so instead of planting a CC is it worth pulling SCVs to help with my attack? I like to try and play builds where I can be aggressive early on with the chance to outright win the game, but if it fails have something to fall back on. But I've noticed lately that it seems to be more of a choice of long term macro passivity with bits of pressure here and there to get an advantage, or just all-in builds. Thanks EU Gold Terran This is an all-in attack and you would be better off pulling SCVs. The reason for this is because you're investing into so much tech so early to make a large and strong attack. Since you are doing this by the time your CC goes down it is going to be pretty late, so late that if your attack doesn't win you the game you are going to be very behind in economy. If you say get to his base and kill his natural etc but can't move up his ramp, it is fine to throw down a CC at this point to maintain your lead. If you want to incorporate something to fall back on maybe try a gas first cloakshee build without going into tanks so quickly. This will allow for a faster CC but means you won't have the timing attack with marine tank banshee. You can still do damage with the banshees though - which means you are being nice and aggressive while getting an economy behind it. Another variation of this would be to 1 Rax FE into double gas and then go for cloak banshees and slightly later tanks. This gives you a later cloak but again a much more economic opening. Again, you won't have a timing attack for this build but if your banshees do damage and your opponent doesn't damage you then you will be in a great position. | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
I just had a ladder game where my opponent went for a roach check with 4 queens (8 roaches with 4 queens @ 8:10, while doing a (TLO style?) hatch cancel on the middle of the map for some insane creep spread. I was so busy microing that I forgot to build units out of my factory, but I wonder if a hellion banshee into mech build can even hold this with average micro. I think I had 10ish seconds this game where I was not producing scvs, and he kept up with me in drones while taking a third. While also having creep at my third which I think will make him economically ahead if I hold it since it will take a while to take my third with his creep tumors on it. Ofcourse in this game the creep wasn't there yet but theoretically he should be able to get it there in time. With me needing several scans to clean it up. What I am looking for is some high level advice on reacting to this as my reaction was obviously suboptimal, how I should proceed after I held it as there will be creep at my front door, and if this build can even hold this push. Replay: http://drop.sc/276721 | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:42 Olsson wrote: Help me with TvZ. I'm masters btw. It doesn't matter whatever the FUCK I do versus zerg, I can go CC first into 1rax into a third CC before adding raxes and going gasless for like six minutes. I can go something more aggressive such as 1rax, cc into 3rax bio with combat shield push and then stim push. But it doesn't matter one bit, they'll always have a better economy than me and always have the units. What the fuck am I supposed to do? Doesn't anyone else also have this issue? I don't have any particular problem having a similar economy to the Zerg. You should give up things like 3 rax CS timings, they're not efficient anymore against current Zerg openings relying on Queens. Hellions/bio or Hellions/Banshees after 1 rax FE are superior to pure bio follow-ups. On November 19 2012 02:02 Marathi wrote: quick question guys when is a good time to plant a CC when you're going 1base 1/1/1 - the gas first cloakshee variant (pressure with cloakshees and follow up with 1/1/1) Shortly after your first Banshee, then tech Tanks afterwards. On November 19 2012 05:01 Bojas wrote: Hi, I saw Lowely do a build versus Lucifron where he brought queens with his roach check to deal with banshees. I just had a ladder game where my opponent went for a roach check with 4 queens (8 roaches with 4 queens @ 8:10, while doing a (TLO style?) hatch cancel on the middle of the map for some insane creep spread. I was so busy microing that I forgot to build units out of my factory, but I wonder if a hellion banshee into mech build can even hold this with average micro. I think I had 10ish seconds this game where I was not producing scvs, and he kept up with me in drones while taking a third. While also having creep at my third which I think will make him economically ahead if I hold it since it will take a while to take my third with his creep tumors on it. Ofcourse in this game the creep wasn't there yet but theoretically he should be able to get it there in time. With me needing several scans to clean it up. What I am looking for is some high level advice on reacting to this as my reaction was obviously suboptimal, how I should proceed after I held it as there will be creep at my front door, and if this build can even hold this push. Replay: http://drop.sc/276721 With this build order you should: - Start your Factory 15-20 seconds earlier. - Make 3 Marines before Reactor, not 2. This is important to defend various Zerg agressive openings. - Start Cloak around 6'40 (you started it at 7'52). Optimal execution is really important as it allows you to defend and react better. How to react: - Ignore his Queens (do not lose your Hellions to them!) and runby your first 4 Hellions. If some Roaches are spawning / already there choose between suiciding your Hellions to kill Drones (in this case buy maximum time, i. e. be annoying and run up his ramp, micro your Hellions to their last breath, etc.) or retreating to stay around and threaten to come back later. This decision is situational, it depends whether Roaches are already there or moving out, how many of them are still around, etc. - Get a second Bunker and resume Marine production as soon as Lab is done. This way you will have 4 Marines in your Bunker and more on the way. Have some SCVs set on Auto-Repair ready. - Do not lose your first Banshee until Cloak is done (~8'30). You lost your first Banshee not only because you didn't micro it back, but also because she didn't have the protection of Cloak. Focus Queens with them. You don't particularly care about creep at your door, you should be able to kill him with Hellions/Banshees alone should he fail. | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
On November 19 2012 08:12 TheDwf wrote: With this build order you should: - Start your Factory 15-20 seconds earlier. - Make 3 Marines before Reactor, not 2. This is important to defend various Zerg agressive openings. - Start Cloak around 6'40 (you started it at 7'52). Optimal execution is really important as it allows you to defend and react better. How to react: - Ignore his Queens (do not lose your Hellions to them!) and runby your first 4 Hellions. If some Roaches are spawning / already there choose between suiciding your Hellions to kill Drones (in this case buy maximum time, i. e. be annoying and run up his ramp, micro your Hellions to their last breath, etc.) or retreating to stay around and threaten to come back later. This decision is situational, it depends whether Roaches are already there or moving out, how many of them are still around, etc. - Get a second Bunker and resume Marine production as soon as Lab is done. This way you will have 4 Marines in your Bunker and more on the way. Have some SCVs set on Auto-Repair ready. - Do not lose your first Banshee until Cloak is done (~8'30). You lost your first Banshee not only because you didn't micro it back, but also because she didn't have the protection of Cloak. Focus Queens with them. You don't particularly care about creep at your door, you should be able to kill him with Hellions/Banshees alone should he fail. I feel a bit embarassed that my timings were so late. I should have noticed this on my own if I didn't botch properly learning the build, I was just way too distracted by the creep as well. Thanks for pointing out my mistakes, I should not expect to be able to hold these builds with terrible build order execution ^^. I'll also try to be better prepared when I ask for help next time. | ||
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Gucci_Mane
United States4 Posts
2 bases going bio vs protoss (after I have one rax with techlab and 2 rax with reactor and a starport with reactor). After the ~10 minute bio push i usually drop a CC and 2 more rax, is this correct? how about when im on three bases, what should my production look like? for TvZ and TvT im completely lost on what i should have For TvZ I usually open eco two rax or hellion banshee into marine tank. whats the ideal production for 2 base going marine tank? how about three base? and TvT i usually go gasless 1 rax FE, I prefer to go marine tank, but i have no idea what production i should get to accommodate this on 2 and three base. similar to TvZ? thanks in advance guys | ||
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Galaxy345
Luxembourg28 Posts
Im low Diamond now, and i am having some succes with it, but i dont know if it is only due to my oponnents poor scouting/micro/reaction. It looks like a 1 rax expand and with bunker at your front you can deny him from seing your expo on most maps. I often place 2 Rax out of my Base so i can often sandwich his Stalker with the marines, move out with a few SCVs while getting my late expo. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 19 2012 20:16 Bojas wrote: I feel a bit embarassed that my timings were so late. I should have noticed this on my own if I didn't botch properly learning the build, I was just way too distracted by the creep as well. Don't worry, it's quite natural to be thrown off balance by unknown agressive play. On November 19 2012 23:55 Gucci_Mane wrote: This is probably a common question, but how many production facilities are ideal for these strategies 2 bases going bio vs protoss (after I have one rax with techlab and 2 rax with reactor and a starport with reactor). After the ~10 minute bio push i usually drop a CC and 2 more rax, is this correct? Yes. Depending on your opening you may also build this CC or those 2 rax earlier. On November 19 2012 23:55 Gucci_Mane wrote: how about when im on three bases, what should my production look like? 8 Barracks (generally 3 Reactors, 5 Tech Labs) + 1 Reactor Starport. Getting an additional Starport against Colossi is possible. On November 19 2012 23:55 Gucci_Mane wrote: for TvZ and TvT im completely lost on what i should have For TvZ I usually open eco two rax or hellion banshee into marine tank. whats the ideal production for 2 base going marine tank? how about three base? Something like 7-8 Barracks + 2-3 Factories + 1 Reactor Starport. On November 19 2012 23:55 Gucci_Mane wrote: and TvT i usually go gasless 1 rax FE, I prefer to go marine tank, but i have no idea what production i should get to accommodate this on 2 and three base. similar to TvZ? Yes. On November 20 2012 00:10 Galaxy345 wrote: I wanted to ask if a 3 to 4 Rax before CC is viable against a toss expo. Im low Diamond now, and i am having some succes with it, but i dont know if it is only due to my oponnents poor scouting/micro/reaction. It looks like a 1 rax expand and with bunker at your front you can deny him from seing your expo on most maps. I often place 2 Rax out of my Base so i can often sandwich his Stalker with the marines, move out with a few SCVs while getting my late expo. Yes, gasless 3 rax expand is viable. 4 rax is only used for all-ins with SCVs. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
http://drop.sc/277056 Mistakes I noticed: I should have just kept my buildings floating where they were instead of moving them around and trying to produce units I could have built a sensor tower to avoid the whole situation I could have macroed better to defend at home. | ||
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