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On July 29 2012 13:56 laoji wrote:Hi guys, Plat T here, I am really struggling with TvZ http://drop.sc/230247Game i played earlier, apart from getting tanks, what areas glare out to people that im failing at and should work on? if multiple, what should i focus on first? i want to feel like i have a chance when loading up vs a zerg. Thanks!
First thing, I would strongly recommend getting faster gases, there is just only so much you can do with pure minerals as you found out when you sent a bunch of marines out with just combat shield. If you want to do that sort of thing it must come earlier, and you must scout if there is anything there to attack.
Basically this lack of gas then made your push with medivacs so late it couldn't do anything either. And then later on you run low on minerals instead because you refuse to drop MULEs for some reason.
Also because you don't have the minerals from the MULEs you don't have anywhere near enough marine production.
16 minutes in and you are still only making marines 5 at a time, you don't notice the problem because your minerals are low because you aren't MULEing.
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On July 30 2012 02:41 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 02:36 C0MMANDO wrote:On July 30 2012 00:08 saaaa wrote:How do i react properly if i scout a nexus first and i plan to play a FE into 5 rax naked marine push? The push is designed to destroy his expansion or do at least significant damage to their economy but against a nexus first he will has enough units to defend it without suffer economic damage. I normally scout after my rax at 12 supply finished. Is there a way how i can punish it really hard and maybe outright kill him? replays are welcome  bunker rush him in fact cancel my OC and go for 3-4 rax instant go?
That sounds incredibly risky, why take that chance instead of going for a macro game? As long as you put on some light pressure to force chrono on units then he isn't that much better off than a standard expansion. Don't let him produce a panic reaction out of you.
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Well aggainst Nexus first there isn´t really a good way to deal damage unless your opponent plays really greedy/poorly afterwards. The best respond in my opinion is imo to just get everything a little faster. Little things like skipping the 1st bunker until you have taken your 2 gases, getting your factory before stim or getting fast double upgrades can tweaken your build a bit aggainst this greedy style, but keep in mind that the Protoss can still do a gateway push arround 7 or 8 minutes (don´t know the exact timing) so make sure to not skip your bunkers just build them later than usual to get everything else a little bit faster. Unless you are playing high masters or grandmaster you really don´t have to worry about the differences between Nexus or CC first and a normal expand.
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I have lost several time to colossi/phonix now. There is no terran counter.
This is no trolling or anything, please tell me a counter if you know one. I always open up with 1rax fe, do normal bio play with drops. My opponents just turtle, defend drops way too easy with mass phoenix and you can not build enough vikings to kill the colossi before the kill you.
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Double reactor starport, lots and lots of vikings.
It was a style that was popular a long time ago but quickly fell out of favour as terrans got used to dealing with it.
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no. vikings are terrible vs phoenixes. storm makes vikings die too fast. marines are no option because the vikings priorize the phoenixes over the colossi and the marines die to the colossi.
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I'm sorry, there are HT with storm now as well? What time is this?
You can manually target the vikings on the colossi you know.
If you are genuinely having a problem post some replays.
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Ht with storm is lategame, 4base timings.
i know i can target the collossi, but it is not possible to micro them as well as my emps, snipes, do my kitingn and macro whil toss just amoves.....
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On July 30 2012 04:57 graNite wrote:
I have lost several time to colossi/phonix now. There is no terran counter.
This is no trolling or anything, please tell me a counter if you know one. I always open up with 1rax fe, do normal bio play with drops. My opponents just turtle, defend drops way too easy with mass phoenix and you can not build enough vikings to kill the colossi before the kill you.
Try mixing in a thor for anti air if he go ultra sky-protoss heavy.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 29 2012 08:51 deeshoo wrote:
Hi guys, been finding some decent success in TvZ with the various Bio builds that are floating around recently; I particularly like to use the 3rax combat shield poke at 7 minutes to try and pressure the zerg who take a fast third without speed. It's pretty viable, I'll usually either kill a lot of drones, kill/cancel the third hatch, or force a lot of slow zerglings which marines with CS can be pretty cost efficient against.
However, I'm pretty afraid of zergs who go 15 hatch and then take gas for faster speed, especially since there's a chance that they could just roach/bane bust me (which even when prepared for can do some pretty significant damage). What should my decision making to do any kind of damage/pressure be when this happens?
Transition into mid game is constant aggression and trading while staying even on bases with the zerg which has been doing pretty well thus far.
edit: Also, what should I do against a Protoss who's turtled up super hard on three bases, as in I can't find any avenues to drop and do some kind of damage, and then they just come out with 3/3 upgrades and a massive colossus/templar/gateway deathball?
I generally do marine-focused builds in TvZ. I prefer a 4rax attack to a 3rax combat shield as you can have a lot more marines, but generally I play the same style as you. With an early gas, you have to make sure that you attack before speed can be done (3 minutes after the first gas goes down), although I've found it better to just trash the 7:00 attack and save those marines in case of a baneling bust or a roach bust.
In general, if I see an early gas, I will trash the 7:00 attack and add gas earlier, getting faster medivacs or tanks. If you're going for a bio army, you can't move out until you have medivacs, and you can't move out with marine/tank until you have 2-3 tanks. I usually go straight into medivacs for a 10:00ish timing with CS/stim and +1, but I'm beginning to think that fast tanks to secure a fast 3rd are the better way to go.
Of course, however, that changes your game plan quite a bit. Continue on with experimenting! Drop the attack, faster gas, faster tech!
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United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2012 00:29 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 00:08 saaaa wrote:How do i react properly if i scout a nexus first and i plan to play a FE into 5 rax naked marine push? The push is designed to destroy his expansion or do at least significant damage to their economy but against a nexus first he will has enough units to defend it without suffer economic damage. I normally scout after my rax at 12 supply finished. Is there a way how i can punish it really hard and maybe outright kill him? replays are welcome 5 rax doesn't need to do damage and is certainly not designed to do so in general. It's a pressure push which must immediately be retracted if you see he has sufficient forces, and can only do damage to a Protoss cutting corners, e.g expecting a 1 rax expo into 3rax. Your tech is behind, but you're economically ahead.
I think I understand what you're saying here, but I think it needs to be clarified. The point of ANY early marine push (before 8:00) in TvP is to DELAY TECH. In 40% of circumstances, you will end up walking into his expansion, killing off a few units, maybe even killing a few a probes and overall doing some fairly significant damage. In another 10%, you can actually just win right there. In another 50% of circumstances, the protoss will be well prepared with 3-4 sentries, some zealots, some stalkers; in this case, there is NO PROBLEM with pulling marines back, as you have delayed his tech substantially by forcing him to make gas units.
Seeing as how the nexus first builds delay tech already, it's perfectly fine to just forgo that attack and rely on your tech advantage. This means getting double ups, getting faster medivacs, etc.
EDIT: I like the bunker rush, but it's got to be something you're sure of to cancel the CC, get a second barracks, and push early. We've seen Mvp do this quite a bit, but you have to emphasize caution, especially on certain maps.
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United States4883 Posts
That's the one I was thinking of too! Thanks for posting this!
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On July 30 2012 00:08 saaaa wrote:How do i react properly if i scout a nexus first and i plan to play a FE into 5 rax naked marine push? The push is designed to destroy his expansion or do at least significant damage to their economy but against a nexus first he will has enough units to defend it without suffer economic damage. I normally scout after my rax at 12 supply finished. Is there a way how i can punish it really hard and maybe outright kill him? replays are welcome
i can't find a replay but i do 3 things
1) i always at the very least, attempt a bunker rush. 30-40% of the time, i can get it up, usually what i do is a throw the bunker down, make it and then bring in my rally'd marines + 1-2 extra scvs.
2) if i feel like i can't bunker rush, or what not, i go 5 rax pressure ONLY if it's the gateway variation. as in, i poke in if it's gateways only. if it's a forge variation, i'll poke, but only go if less than 2 cannons w/o sentries
3) depending on how much damage i have, or haven't done (aka force a lot of sentries/kill sentries/kill probes/etc), i'll either take a hidden 3rd (so then my normal 3rd timing would be a 4th), or go for a strong attack on 2 base.
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As someone who just switched to terran, would practicing 1 rax expand for all matchups be a good idea? Or are there better builds for different matchups?
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On July 30 2012 07:52 blobrus wrote:
As someone who just switched to terran, would practicing 1 rax expand for all matchups be a good idea? Or are there better builds for different matchups?
depending on how good your mechanics are imo
i think a 1rax expand is good tho, teaches you how to scout, and hopefully what to look for.
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On July 30 2012 07:57 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 07:42 SC2John wrote:On July 30 2012 00:29 monkybone wrote:On July 30 2012 00:08 saaaa wrote:How do i react properly if i scout a nexus first and i plan to play a FE into 5 rax naked marine push? The push is designed to destroy his expansion or do at least significant damage to their economy but against a nexus first he will has enough units to defend it without suffer economic damage. I normally scout after my rax at 12 supply finished. Is there a way how i can punish it really hard and maybe outright kill him? replays are welcome 5 rax doesn't need to do damage and is certainly not designed to do so in general. It's a pressure push which must immediately be retracted if you see he has sufficient forces, and can only do damage to a Protoss cutting corners, e.g expecting a 1 rax expo into 3rax. Your tech is behind, but you're economically ahead. I think I understand what you're saying here, but I think it needs to be clarified. The point of ANY early marine push (before 8:00) in TvP is to DELAY TECH. In 40% of circumstances, you will end up walking into his expansion, killing off a few units, maybe even killing a few a probes and overall doing some fairly significant damage. In another 10%, you can actually just win right there. In another 50% of circumstances, the protoss will be well prepared with 3-4 sentries, some zealots, some stalkers; in this case, there is NO PROBLEM with pulling marines back, as you have delayed his tech substantially by forcing him to make gas units. Seeing as how the nexus first builds delay tech already, it's perfectly fine to just forgo that attack and rely on your tech advantage. This means getting double ups, getting faster medivacs, etc. EDIT: I like the bunker rush, but it's got to be something you're sure of to cancel the CC, get a second barracks, and push early. We've seen Mvp do this quite a bit, but you have to emphasize caution, especially on certain maps. Yep, good point, his tech will be delayed as well if he prepares accordingly with sentries and stalkers. So the 5 rax isn't a failed build just because you can't do damage.
I've been using a 5 rax build as my go to build in TvP for the last few months. my win rate went from 10% TvP to 83%. and it's pretty rare that I kill the protoss with my first batch of marines. (maybe 15% of the time?), but it really helps with understanding the matchup and what exploits the holes that toss has
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On July 30 2012 08:08 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 08:01 Chaggi wrote:On July 30 2012 07:57 monkybone wrote:On July 30 2012 07:42 SC2John wrote:On July 30 2012 00:29 monkybone wrote:On July 30 2012 00:08 saaaa wrote:How do i react properly if i scout a nexus first and i plan to play a FE into 5 rax naked marine push? The push is designed to destroy his expansion or do at least significant damage to their economy but against a nexus first he will has enough units to defend it without suffer economic damage. I normally scout after my rax at 12 supply finished. Is there a way how i can punish it really hard and maybe outright kill him? replays are welcome 5 rax doesn't need to do damage and is certainly not designed to do so in general. It's a pressure push which must immediately be retracted if you see he has sufficient forces, and can only do damage to a Protoss cutting corners, e.g expecting a 1 rax expo into 3rax. Your tech is behind, but you're economically ahead. I think I understand what you're saying here, but I think it needs to be clarified. The point of ANY early marine push (before 8:00) in TvP is to DELAY TECH. In 40% of circumstances, you will end up walking into his expansion, killing off a few units, maybe even killing a few a probes and overall doing some fairly significant damage. In another 10%, you can actually just win right there. In another 50% of circumstances, the protoss will be well prepared with 3-4 sentries, some zealots, some stalkers; in this case, there is NO PROBLEM with pulling marines back, as you have delayed his tech substantially by forcing him to make gas units. Seeing as how the nexus first builds delay tech already, it's perfectly fine to just forgo that attack and rely on your tech advantage. This means getting double ups, getting faster medivacs, etc. EDIT: I like the bunker rush, but it's got to be something you're sure of to cancel the CC, get a second barracks, and push early. We've seen Mvp do this quite a bit, but you have to emphasize caution, especially on certain maps. Yep, good point, his tech will be delayed as well if he prepares accordingly with sentries and stalkers. So the 5 rax isn't a failed build just because you can't do damage. I've been using a 5 rax build as my go to build in TvP for the last few months. my win rate went from 10% TvP to 83%. and it's pretty rare that I kill the protoss with my first batch of marines. (maybe 15% of the time?), but it really helps with understanding the matchup and what exploits the holes that toss has That's pretty amazing, you're certainly far ahead if you manage to kill probes with it. 83% is crazy though, may I ask what league this is in? What's so good about it is that it punishes so many greedy and/or tech-heavy builds which the toss wants to abuse you with. DT drops, or DT timings in general are useless. Fast colossus tech, fast 3rd base, or just skimping on units is punished equally well. Furthermore, it's so safe against any 1 base or 2 base warpgate timings as you'll have a lot of marines. I've yet to see a solid counter-build to this.
I'm a high diamond on NA and high plat/low diamond on KR. my FPS is pure crap though so I think I could win more if I didn't get 1 FPS while controlling late game armies
imo there's no hard counter but the closest one i found was blink stalkers cause of the delayed marauders tho it's not a counter. just hard to beat.
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EPT
