EPTI've tried that pure bio play but my mechanics and splits aren't quite good enough to pull that off.
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 270
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
I've tried that pure bio play but my mechanics and splits aren't quite good enough to pull that off. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 16:55 dynwar7 wrote: Thanks you. I am just wondering when the best time to transition to sky is, because that is what I like, I think (lol). I like going marine tank because using that you can end the game reasonably quickly, when compared to mech.Just need to know when to transition to air? When you get on 4 safe bases and have 8+ geysers, you can start BC production off of 2-3 starports. It's kind of like Blords for zerg in that respect. You just have to be really careful with the transition because you have to trade some of your 200/200 supply out at the right time AKA NOT JUST BEFORE A HUGE ATTACK. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2358 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:18 Bojas wrote: What have you guys been doing tvz lately? I feel like hellions are useless but for scouting allins. Anyone has a good build for share or some pro player who seems to have figured out tvz after the queen change? I've tried that pure bio play but my mechanics and splits aren't quite good enough to pull that off. Lossing... No, seriously since i can't win any tvz that is longer than 12 minutes, i decided to cheese every single zerg i face on the ladder, 50% winrate so far... has worked better than playing standart. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 21 2012 16:51 monkybone wrote: Interesting, I see some pros being surprisingly aggressive with their mech composition, even though Artosis dictates being passive with mech. Do you by any chance rely on a couple of Ravens for aggression? And what do you do with marine marauder counter-attacks/doom-drops? Mech is pretty mobile thanks to hellions. You need to outmove your opponent. Even if you siege too late, mech deals cost efficiently with bio. Hellions function as an awesome meatshield. Ravens cost too much gas in the midgame, so I use pure viking (not too much vs bio, maximum 10), tanks and hellions. In the early game I make 1 raven tough, to be safe against cloacked banshees, and it's pretty useful in my midgame pushes: pdd for vikingsbattles (mech vs mech), pdd for marauder fire, auto turrets. You got to feel your opponents plan. If I feel he wants to basetrade, I play more passive. I go for a low scv count, a low hellion count, and when maxed (around 15-16:00) I move out with 3/5 of my army. I spread a decent amount of tanks around my nat-third. There is no way he can trade cost efficient. The vikings will kill medivacs. The tanks will kill everything on the ground. Good upgrades are required! Against doomdrops I use: 1) sensor tower, 2) turrets, 3) 2 tanks in my main. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 21 2012 16:55 dynwar7 wrote: Thanks you. I am just wondering when the best time to transition to sky is, because that is what I like, I think (lol). I like going marine tank because using that you can end the game reasonably quickly, when compared to mech.Just need to know when to transition to air? I can end my games quicker then you, using mech. You should really stop seeing mech as an immobile unit composition. Transition to sky: whenever you want. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:47 XenOsky- wrote: Lossing... No, seriously since i can't win any tvz that is longer than 12 minutes, i decided to cheese every single zerg i face on the ladder, 50% winrate so far... has worked better than playing standart. I'm really considering a writeup for this particular matchup. Right now a lot of terrans seem lost on this matchup, and I can understand why. I've always thought TvZ was a difficult matchup, and with the current balance zerg is dominating this matchup even in the progaming sphere. However, there are some really simple and clean concepts that will help you to win every game comfortably and will eliminate your frustration. The biggest problem that terrans are facing right now is that what used to work before...DOESNT WORK ANYMORE. The 4 hellion opener, BFH drops, the 9:30 marine/tank push, etc, are all outdated and the majority of players on ladder don't know how to play by principle, not strategy. Most players below GM are saying, "Well, I just go pure bio now or play mech because the standard marine/tank is dead," but that's not necessarily true. IT'S JUST THE WAY WE WERE PLAYING IT BEFORE DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE. It is perfectly possible for terran to exploit weaknesses in the zerg army in the mid and late game, and there's no need for terrans to freak about not being able to beat the zerg army. I hope to be bringing this presentation to TL sometime in the next month if I have time to do it. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:52 Snowbear wrote: I can end my games quicker then you, using mech. You should really stop seeing mech as an immobile unit composition. Transition to sky: whenever you want. May I ask for some replays sir? | ||
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Pillage
United States804 Posts
On June 21 2012 06:06 terranpacman wrote: Hey guys, my first post here  I had a bit of a problem with a zerg build recently so i asked my zerg friend to learn it and use it against me, so we could both work out how to counter it. So a bit of back story, i dont like mech and i dont like hellion banshee transitioning in to marine tank anymore. So im looking for a new way to play i wanted to try bio, so i took my protoss build and altered it a bit to account for a zerg opponent and its been going pritty well. But against this build i cant win, and my zerg friend cant seem to figure it out either, there are a few things that happen. If i get 4 bunkers i still lose my natural and it just puts me behind the zerg, they can take a 3rd and just start droning and i cant do a thing about it or they can keep busting me untill im dead. i have tried maby 5 different combinations of the build like less marauders or stim first, but nothing works and its anoying me i dont wanna ladder knowing that a zerg can get a free win. http://drop.sc/200580 (one of the game i played yesterday) reddit couldnt help, they were talking about a build that hits at 11 minutes but this hits when my stim is half done ( around 8 minutes) The issue here is that you have too many marauders. Obviously marauders don't die to banelings but they are pretty shitty at killing zerglings and banelings until they have stim. Your sim city setup isn't that bad either (there were a few holes so it could be better), as all of the bunkers can cover each other but the banelings cant blow them all up at once. The issue is that you more or less need more marines because they can kill zerglings much better than marauders, and you'll have more of em if you reactor some raxes instead of keeping them naked or with techlabs. Positioning is crucial here. Place marauders in the front bunker and in the area in the middle of your bunker diamond. They will tank all of the baneling hits and you'll have three bunkers of marines with some other marines too that will be shooting at the zerglings. With repair you should be able to hold out until tanks arrive. I'm of the opinion that you need tanks to stop this kind of continuous ling-bling agression, unless you have some godly micro. Even then a few tanks back home that helps you squash counter attacks in the later game is nice to have too. You can still play bio with all of your forces that try to kill zerg. Your upgrades will be a little slower if you do this, but so will his because of all the gas he spent on banelings. | ||
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jabberjaw
225 Posts
On June 21 2012 17:18 Bojas wrote: What have you guys been doing tvz lately? I feel like hellions are useless but for scouting allins. Anyone has a good build for share or some pro player who seems to have figured out tvz after the queen change? I've tried that pure bio play but my mechanics and splits aren't quite good enough to pull that off. I'm not having that much of a problem vs. Z even after this recent patch. Anyways, I generally either go the thorzain reactor hellion 3 OC or demuslim stim/cs/+1 timing attack. Both are safe vs. ling-bane-roach all-ins, more so for the thorzain build which gets quick seige mode. you can see replays of the tzain 3oc build @ redbull battlegrounds vs. sheth. and demuslim timing attack vs. drg @ MLG winter championships Another thing ive been attempting to put into my play is qxc's bunker below the z's ramp to slow down creep spread. ive only gotten a chance to use it once, but i like it so far. http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/ | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:46 jabberjaw wrote: Another thing ive been attempting to put into my play is qxc's bunker below the z's ramp to slow down creep spread. ive only gotten a chance to use it once, but i like it so far. http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/ That's actually awesome. I'm surprised this wasn't thought of sooner. Leave it up to qxc to come up with something groundbreaking: "WHAT?!?! YOU CAN SPLIT MARINES TO TAKE LESS DAMAGE FROM BANELINGS?!?!?! UNHEARD OF!!!" Seriously, though. I like how qxc has managed to use a different idea to achieve the same strategy in the face of a potentially game-changing patch. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:53 SC2John wrote: That's actually awesome. I'm surprised this wasn't thought of sooner. Leave it up to qxc to come up with something groundbreaking: "WHAT?!?! YOU CAN SPLIT MARINES TO TAKE LESS DAMAGE FROM BANELINGS?!?!?! UNHEARD OF!!!" Seriously, though. I like how qxc has managed to use a different idea to achieve the same strategy in the face of a potentially game-changing patch. This bunker is actually not that great. Good zergs will NEVER let this bunker go up. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:35 Snowbear wrote: This bunker is actually not that great. Good zergs will NEVER let this bunker go up. But...isn't that the point? I mean, doesn't it achieve the same goal as putting a bunker behind the mineral line? It forces a certain amount of zerglings, then forces a trade of at least a few of those zerglings, then forces more to deal with the hellions. That seems like a fairly reasonable trade for 4 hellions, 4 marines, and a salvaged/cancelled bunker. I mean, in theory, that sounds perfectly sound. I've yet to try it out, but I kind of want to now. | ||
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xertion
Sweden52 Posts
On June 21 2012 19:35 Snowbear wrote: This bunker is actually not that great. Good zergs will NEVER let this bunker go up. What is a good zerg for you? DRG? A master player? That's like saying a good zerg would never let a 2 racks bunker push succeed. There has been MAAAAANY games where early bunkers get up. Especially if the Zerg go 5 queens with no gas and no zerglingspeed. The whole point of this bunker is to prevent the mass queen creepspread. If they go mass queens, they won't have too much zerglings and such. Obviously this bunker is best when terran scout no gas at Zerg. If they see fast gas, it's probably a better idea to go defensive and place the bunker at home if a roach all in is coming. | ||
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stichtom
Italy695 Posts
Replay of me losing to a ban bust: http://sc2shr.com/sz Please, help me, i don't know what to do. Thank you | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:46 jabberjaw wrote: I'm not having that much of a problem vs. Z even after this recent patch. Anyways, I generally either go the thorzain reactor hellion 3 OC or demuslim stim/cs/+1 timing attack. Both are safe vs. ling-bane-roach all-ins, more so for the thorzain build which gets quick seige mode. you can see replays of the tzain 3oc build @ redbull battlegrounds vs. sheth. and demuslim timing attack vs. drg @ MLG winter championships Another thing ive been attempting to put into my play is qxc's bunker below the z's ramp to slow down creep spread. ive only gotten a chance to use it once, but i like it so far. http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/ Thanks I'll definitely check it out! Edit: does anyone have build order notes for demuslim's timing push? it's incredibly annoying to grab the build from those vods. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
1. For bling bust proper scouting is key right? And to wall, should it be my beloved raxes or just make many bunkers? I think bunkers are good with 100 mins and can be salvaged if not used. Also, I heard ebay is good for emergency walling. So, is it rax/bunker/or ebay? If it is bunker, should it be empty or full of marines? 2. Lastly, what do I do vs Protoss who seemingly , 24/7, always try to proxy pylon and pressure me? Simple but I need help here. 3. And in general.....how do I perform well even under pressure? Normally I set a BO and I follow it good. But if there is evena little, unusual pressure, such as being attacked with a few more zerglings than normal, etc etc (just little things), it really messes up my whole plan...what is the solution to this? Just to play more games and become more confident? | ||
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
On June 21 2012 10:18 iAmJeffReY wrote: I do gasless FE into 3 gas 2 port cloak harass as I build up a marine marauder tank banshee army. Pending scouting, you can drop a raven and vikings for stalker/collsai, get stim and CS and push out with scvs for a 2 base timing attack. Couple recent replays from my 10 games this season. http://drop.sc/201250 vs vGEroSennin 1500 last season protoss --- 700 pt last season 1 gate FE into robo play (ob sees 2 port, he drops sgate for phoenix and collsai) http://drop.sc/201251 vs 20-6 no games last season protoss --- warp prism DT drop http://drop.sc/201252 vs vVvReseT 1320 protoss last season -- 700pt this season -- 1 gate FE into fast HT It's definitely a weird push, but you drop a 3rd CC as you push out, and 2 more rax, and 2 ebay to transition into an odd, but workable, standard play. The push hits hard...very hard. Most times, you can contain them and get what units you need to win. I never 1rax FE into 1-1-1 (or 2port in this case) in TvP because I feel like I will instantly lose to any sort of 1base play. Do you feel you can survive an all-in? Like blink al-in or prism 4gate or 3gate vray or whatever. | ||
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xertion
Sweden52 Posts
On June 21 2012 23:43 dynwar7 wrote: Hi terraners, lets get straight into it. 1. For bling bust proper scouting is key right? And to wall, should it be my beloved raxes or just make many bunkers? I think bunkers are good with 100 mins and can be salvaged if not used. Also, I heard ebay is good for emergency walling. So, is it rax/bunker/or ebay? If it is bunker, should it be empty or full of marines? 2. Lastly, what do I do vs Protoss who seemingly , 24/7, always try to proxy pylon and pressure me? Simple but I need help here. 3. And in general.....how do I perform well even under pressure? Normally I set a BO and I follow it good. But if there is evena little, unusual pressure, such as being attacked with a few more zerglings than normal, etc etc (just little things), it really messes up my whole plan...what is the solution to this? Just to play more games and become more confident? 1) If you go fastexpand you build supply depots and bunker at your natural after your expansion is up and running. If you do this there won't be needed to do so much "emergency buildings" since you already placed a lot of buildings in the correct position from the beginning. If you do need to do emergency-buildings than yes, Engineering bay is good because it builds fast, has a lot of HP and is quite cheap. Ofcourse bunkers is also a good idea. Very important also to spread your marines (that is not inside the bunker) before the banelingbust hits, so they take as little damage as possible. When you scv scout the zerg. Look for his gas timing, also if you can; look if he continue mine gas after speed. If he go speed first you could probably asume he is doing some early attack like runby, roach or baneling. Most Zergs go gas-less with 4-5 queens if they go macro-mode. 2) If you go fastexpand vs protoss you should have 1 bunker up before his stalker is at your base. If you scout a proxy pylon it's a good idea to build another bunker and bring some scv's to be ready to repair the bunkers. Especially if you successfully scouted that he did not expand. Than you just tech up to Medivacs and Stim, and when you have both you can push out because the Protoss early-game army usually dont stand much chance vs medivac-army. He can not have mapcontrol and he has to defend his base from your drops. Until you have medivacs, you just camp your base since you are probably ahead in workers already. 3) Regarding the last question, I would suggest to only play 1 Buildorder per matchup so that you don't even need to think about the buildorder itself. It should come like muscle memory. Very important that you dont stop teching to medivacs vs protoss just because he build a proxy. Just practise practise practise with the buildorder until you feel 100% with it. Also don't be afraid of building buildings and macro well just because you think he might pressure. Just hovering your army for 1min without macro just because you are ready for him attacking is almost as damaging as losing the attack. You need to keep up your macro during pressure. | ||
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terranpacman
3 Posts
On June 21 2012 18:25 Pillage wrote: The issue here is that you have too many marauders. Obviously marauders don't die to banelings but they are pretty shitty at killing zerglings and banelings until they have stim. Your sim city setup isn't that bad either (there were a few holes so it could be better), as all of the bunkers can cover each other but the banelings cant blow them all up at once. The issue is that you more or less need more marines because they can kill zerglings much better than marauders, and you'll have more of em if you reactor some raxes instead of keeping them naked or with techlabs. Positioning is crucial here. Place marauders in the front bunker and in the area in the middle of your bunker diamond. They will tank all of the baneling hits and you'll have three bunkers of marines with some other marines too that will be shooting at the zerglings. With repair you should be able to hold out until tanks arrive. I'm of the opinion that you need tanks to stop this kind of continuous ling-bling agression, unless you have some godly micro. Even then a few tanks back home that helps you squash counter attacks in the later game is nice to have too. You can still play bio with all of your forces that try to kill zerg. Your upgrades will be a little slower if you do this, but so will his because of all the gas he spent on banelings. ok so i survived the first attack, and second, was able to get stim and got some tanks out but... the build doesnt affect the zerg he just got to 4 base while still attacking me and killed me with bl, i was never going to be alowed to take a 3rd so i tryed to drop there was creep and overlords everywhere. there doesnt seem to be a way to beat it  now i want banelings to be nerfed, make them cost more so they cant do this and expand behind it. if you have a zerg friend here is the build : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Base_Ling/Bane_Bust_(vs._Terran) if anyone can beat this with bio... please send me the replay | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 22 2012 00:08 Starshaped wrote: I never 1rax FE into 1-1-1 (or 2port in this case) in TvP because I feel like I will instantly lose to any sort of 1base play. Do you feel you can survive an all-in? Like blink al-in or prism 4gate or 3gate vray or whatever. I take their 2nd gas if it isn't already taken, and ninja scout the expo. If they don't expo, just proceed to earlier 3 rax double tech lab and 1 reactor normal old bio play with late tanks and medivacs. But as most protoss will see a 1 rax FE, and drop their nexus, it's usually easy to scout with the scv. Nexus cancels and such can be a bitch obviously. 2 gas no expos, obviously you can't go 2 port. I keep the fac with a tech lab if I know it's not a blink stalker, and make tanks and siege asap, and just drop the raxes earlier. It's more so a counter to conventional PvT where they nexus first, or 1 gate FE into normal 3 gate robo, or parting -> dual forge -> HT/Chargelot kind of BS. | ||
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