EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 253
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
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phoenixfeather95
665 Posts
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Sianos
580 Posts
On June 12 2012 22:55 Absentia wrote: How do you avoid base trades playing mech? It seems like the bio player always has the option to base trade on particular maps, (e.g. cloud kingdom, daybreak, tal darim) even once you reach the 200/200 mech ball. Obviously you can win base trades vs bio because your army is going to be way stronger in an engagement but i'm more interested in how to best avoid base trading at all. If you know your opponent is setting up for a base trade scenario...how should I be responding? It´s a simple rule regarding lategame in general. Allways keep your army in between your own base and your opponent´s army. Never attack your opponent, when you don´t know where his army is. | ||
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-FoX
United States479 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:35 Sianos wrote: It´s a simple rule regarding lategame in general. Allways keep your army in between your own base and your opponent´s army. Never attack your opponent, when you don´t know where his army is. This is entirely right. However it's not often that the enemy can load up his entire force in say 14-15 medivacs and drop your main. In this case the previous poster had a good point about making sure turret rings are set-up and things like sensor towers/planetary fortresses are incredibly useful. The thing you have to remember about mech'ing is that it relies entirely on your positioning and your enemies positioning. If you get caught out of position, your entire army dies in a matter of seconds so being able to keep tabs on the opponents army is the number one thing with mech. Also, having the viking count necessary to shoot down his medivacs when you see a doom drop coming is very important. As far as looking for base trade scenarios there are a few key things to keep in mind. 1. He's only going to base trade if he sees no way to engage your army cost-efficiently. This meaning that he's not going to fight an entrenched position so if you set up something like a contain, he's most likely going to go for the base trade. 2. His army is nowhere to be found. If you drop a couple scans and something seems fishy, it's likely that his army is circumventing yours and trying to find a spot to hit you for a base trade. This makes map vision incredibly important. Having hellions at watch towers and various attack paths is a necessity. 3. Air control. If he's got a lot of medivacs that you haven't been able to take out and air superiority is unclear, he has the option of doom dropping you which is one of the best ways for bio to base trade as they get right on top of your production immediately. Sensor towers/turrets/vikings are key. | ||
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-FoX
United States479 Posts
On June 12 2012 13:43 Blackknight232 wrote: can anyone give some tips on how to get to diamond and also what build groups or unit comps are good for tvp First off I'll preface this by saying this is more tips to get to diamond and beyond, not simply getting to diamond and staying there. The best way to get into diamond is to focus on each match-up one at a time. Practice 1 solid build order for each match-up and play maybe 20-30 games against A.I until you really have all the timings and supply marks memorized. Obviously this isn't going to be anything like a real game but it's more about getting the feel for your build order and make sure you don't leave out anything when you play the A.I. Make sure you're still scouting at appropriate times and using scans when you would against a normal opponent. Also don't leave out things like taking watchtowers or you'll find that in a real game you might be missing some key components of solid play. That being said, the builds you want to be practicing should be more macro-oriented builds as if you decide to practice cheeses or all-ins it's likely they'll be phased out quickly and you'll be back to square one again. I'd advise going 1 Rax FE in every match-up and learning all the cheeses that could be coming you way. You want to be a solid player, that's what is going to allow you to improve. Sure cheesing might be fun and easy to get ladder points, but patches and adaption causes cheeses to go out of style much faster than a build like the 1 Rax FE. Also, use a hotkey set-up you're comfortable with. This increases your effectiveness with your actions immensely. Play around with different hotkey settings, find out what's the most useful for you. See what kind of control groups are most comfortable for your fingers and practice with them a lot. These kind of things may not seem as important but they go hand-in-hand with improving. Lastly, as far as TvP builds, I believe the 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax 1 Refinery build by Bomber is very prominent right now. Check this out for more: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340714 Every game in TvP is usually going to be you going bio in the early game slowly adding on a few medivacs later on. From the 10 minute mark and on it becomes a point of countering your enemy. You scan and see collosus so you add vikings. You see templar tech so you add ghosts. Your core is going to be MMMVG with more Vikings than Ghosts or vice versa depending on the opponents unit composition. One important thing to remember is that you always want at least 4 or 5 medivacs with your army so try hard not to lose those as losing them can severely damage you viking count which hurts a lot if you're against collosus. Hope this helps. | ||
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-FoX
United States479 Posts
On June 12 2012 19:43 KiddCabbage wrote: Hey all - can I get your thoughts on 1-1-1 marine/tank/viking push openings in TvT? Not only its effectiveness and it's pros/cons, but how it transitions into the midgame. I'd say it's an incredibly strong build against a 1 Rax FE. Against much else it's just average I'd say and unless it does a lot of damage, you're often very far behind. However, it's pretty easy to do damage with a build like this as long as you aren't caught out of position. If the enemy is doing some kind of heavy bio play then you can be in trouble if he catches you unsieged but if he's going some kind of early expansion build you should be able to at least force his expansion back to his base. As far as transitioning it can be hard to decide what to do. You have to be able to gauge whether continuing to add tanks/vikings/marines will outright win you the game or if its time to expand. The problem with expanding is that the 400 minerals you sink into the CC cuts a lot of units out of your contain and might cause it to get crushed. However, if you feel your positioning is solid enough, or if you just decide to go home after your CC goes up, you should be in a decent position. From here I would transition into simple Bio/Tank/Medivac/Viking. It's the most natural transition and doesn't require you to add any new tech. This then transitions into a standard Bio/Tank TvT game most likely where positioning is key. It's likely you'll have the viking advantage early on so try to keep that into the midgame and take a faster 3rd than he does. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On June 12 2012 13:43 Blackknight232 wrote: can anyone give some tips on how to get to diamond and also what build groups or unit comps are good for tvp Depends where you are starting from and would also be helpful to post a replay. PM me and I'll see what tips I can offer you. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:35 Sianos wrote: It´s a simple rule regarding lategame in general. Allways keep your army in between your own base and your opponent´s army. Never attack your opponent, when you don´t know where his army is. This is why it's important to stockpile scans. You will tend to build up minerals in a protracted TvT, and that's just fine. Save the energy for scans. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:35 Sianos wrote: It´s a simple rule regarding lategame in general. Allways keep your army in between your own base and your opponent´s army. Never attack your opponent, when you don´t know where his army is. So on Cloud Kingdom, for example, I should have my army/rally points towards or around the closest watchtower? I typically try to stay between my natural and third but this leads to awkward max scenarios when a bio/bio mech player can pin me to my three bases, (if i try to exit via my third he can dart towards natural, if i try to exit via natural he can dart towards my third). On the other hand, it basically means my base is impenetrable during the midgame. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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Shot
Belarus5 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On June 13 2012 00:49 -FoX wrote: First off I'll preface this by saying this is more tips to get to diamond and beyond, not simply getting to diamond and staying there. The best way to get into diamond is to focus on each match-up one at a time. Practice 1 solid build order for each match-up and play maybe 20-30 games against A.I until you really have all the timings and supply marks memorized. Obviously this isn't going to be anything like a real game but it's more about getting the feel for your build order and make sure you don't leave out anything when you play the A.I. Make sure you're still scouting at appropriate times and using scans when you would against a normal opponent. Also don't leave out things like taking watchtowers or you'll find that in a real game you might be missing some key components of solid play. That being said, the builds you want to be practicing should be more macro-oriented builds as if you decide to practice cheeses or all-ins it's likely they'll be phased out quickly and you'll be back to square one again. I'd advise going 1 Rax FE in every match-up and learning all the cheeses that could be coming you way. You want to be a solid player, that's what is going to allow you to improve. Sure cheesing might be fun and easy to get ladder points, but patches and adaption causes cheeses to go out of style much faster than a build like the 1 Rax FE. Also, use a hotkey set-up you're comfortable with. This increases your effectiveness with your actions immensely. Play around with different hotkey settings, find out what's the most useful for you. See what kind of control groups are most comfortable for your fingers and practice with them a lot. These kind of things may not seem as important but they go hand-in-hand with improving. Lastly, as far as TvP builds, I believe the 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax 1 Refinery build by Bomber is very prominent right now. Check this out for more: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340714 Every game in TvP is usually going to be you going bio in the early game slowly adding on a few medivacs later on. From the 10 minute mark and on it becomes a point of countering your enemy. You scan and see collosus so you add vikings. You see templar tech so you add ghosts. Your core is going to be MMMVG with more Vikings than Ghosts or vice versa depending on the opponents unit composition. One important thing to remember is that you always want at least 4 or 5 medivacs with your army so try hard not to lose those as losing them can severely damage you viking count which hurts a lot if you're against collosus. Hope this helps. My best advice to someone trying to get into diamond and above is to master 1 base builds. This may sound counter-intuitive, but it focuses your time on distinct elements of the game so that you can master a few of them instead of improving incrementally at all of them. Find a few good 1 base all-ins and use the same build over and over and over. From doing this you learn a few things: 1) Flow for when to go for what buildings 2) Micro becomes necessary and a premium is put on good micro 3) Macro, yes even though it's 1 base, you learn to maximize returns and get the most for your money based on what you decide to put in 4) You learn to make the tough choices that are not always clear when you are on many bases floating a lot of minerals. Should you cut a few SCVs at this juncture to grant a stronger attack? Would you rather make the OC before the Factory-What benefits are there to each course of action? 5) You master a particular build and improve the skillset to quickly master other builds 6) You master these isolated skills much more quickly. I can't speak for everyone, but this is what I've done and I've had lot of success with it. Now quite the greedy, macro player, I started with the humble 1 base all-ins and it's lead me to improve very quickly and reach a high level. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
TvP I just played that I need some help with vs 1500pt Toss. Extremely standard game: I open with the Bomber style and he goes for an immortal/ht/zealot opening with quick armor upgrades and storm. Thoughts 1. I actually miss spotting the twilight council and forge despite the fact I was still scanning when it was planted. I've also neglected to send an SCV to his front to scout for sentry count, despite the fact I had map control. 2. My addons for rax 2/3 are later than I'd really want. I start them around the same time as my starport switches when it should've been as it was building. 3. 10:20 I scout his unit composition but back off from an engagement since he hasn't taken a third and mine is on the way. As a result, i don't really see the benefit to a frontal engagement nor, (given the fact he moves his stalkers to his main) see the need to drop. I think i'll get a few ghosts out and attack once 1/1 finishes. Was this a mistake? Should I have engaged since storm wasn't done yet; maybe drop at the side of his natural instead of in the main? 4. Scan close to 12:20 to check for 2 base colossus switch seemed pretty pointless in retrospect... 5. 2/2 was delayed for a fairly long time since I was concentrating on the engagement 6. 14:40 my army seems tiny in comparison to his. I didn't EMP enough and I don't really think the EMPs I did use were that good to begin with. I suppose this is a problem I face regularly in TvP... am I meant to just spam the army with EMPs or use a couple and try to save some for the HTs behind the Protoss army? The priority is difficult for me to get my head around... 7. I didn't prepare for the colossus in enough time essentially, (and my upgrades have been pretty delayed). Agree, disagree? Any more thoughts? Thanks. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
On June 13 2012 04:36 Absentia wrote: http://drop.sc/195965 TvP I just played that I need some help with vs 1500pt Toss. Extremely standard game: I open with the Bomber style and he goes for an immortal/ht/zealot opening with quick armor upgrades and storm. Thoughts 1. I actually miss spotting the twilight council and forge despite the fact I was still scanning when it was planted. I've also neglected to send an SCV to his front to scout for sentry count, despite the fact I had map control. 2. My addons for rax 2/3 are later than I'd really want. I start them around the same time as my starport switches when it should've been as it was building. 3. 10:20 I scout his unit composition but back off from an engagement since he hasn't taken a third and mine is on the way. As a result, i don't really see the benefit to a frontal engagement nor, (given the fact he moves his stalkers to his main) see the need to drop. I think i'll get a few ghosts out and attack once 1/1 finishes. Was this a mistake? Should I have engaged since storm wasn't done yet; maybe drop at the side of his natural instead of in the main? 4. Scan close to 12:20 to check for 2 base colossus switch seemed pretty pointless in retrospect... 5. 2/2 was delayed for a fairly long time since I was concentrating on the engagement 6. 14:40 my army seems tiny in comparison to his. I didn't EMP enough and I don't really think the EMPs I did use were that good to begin with. I suppose this is a problem I face regularly in TvP... am I meant to just spam the army with EMPs or use a couple and try to save some for the HTs behind the Protoss army? The priority is difficult for me to get my head around... 7. I didn't prepare for the colossus in enough time essentially, (and my upgrades have been pretty delayed). Agree, disagree? Any more thoughts? Thanks. Didn't harass at all. I'm pretty sure you could've sniped at least a sentry around 10:30; there's no way he could've prevented you from stimming some units and attacking something and fleeing in medics. His forge were on the periphery of his base (sorta), and you made no attempts to drop those. Some early aggression pokes would show you that he had charge (and thus likely not blink yet) so you'd know it was safe to drop. Putting your 3rd cc in main instead of nat meant it had a long way to float, and you never saturated it. You never started a 4th cc. Your army is small because your production on the rax you had wasn't constant and since you never really got your 3rd up and running, your extra rax were delayed. The attack around 15 minutes was just a bad idea. You were behind on upgrades, your ghost count wasn't particularly high yet and they only had about 50% energy. Cloak was nearing completion. You should have at least waited for Cloak. You lost the game after that fight. Dunno why you stayed in the game since you still weren't harassing or making any attempt to prevent his 4th from going up. Propose to me how a terran on 3base with inferior upgrades and tech beat a protoss on 4base? Army control could've been better overall as well. Your build order isn't quite right. Second gas is started about same time stim is (Bomber was getting only just before). 3rd gas should start when you start your factory; which is why your addons were late. Your nat saturation is poor as well early on. Your armory/2nd ebay could've come sooner; and then they'd have been done before you were distracted. Remember the sentry I said you probably could've sniped early on? Guardian shield on his army for the entire fight at 15. The fight at 15 should have been handled differently. Since you had inferior upgrades and an army size that couldn't beat his you should've just been pressuring to distract while you hit his main or 3rd (or both) with drops. Just focus on sniping high templar and kiting/retreating with your main army since you know you can't win the fight. If you're dropping he's less likely to pursue your army (which would be good since you have 0 pfs to fall back on). Factory could be less useless. Just watch the replay with an eye for "what more could I have done with the units I had at this time). | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
Please give me some builds i can find here on TL or somewhere else. thank you! | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
On June 13 2012 07:38 ntssauce wrote: Terran is getting somewhat stegnant in the last time. everybody 1 rax fes into 3 rax or 3 orbital. are there some good (maybe with gas startig) builds that are not all ins but can be used seriously on ladder? I'm getting bored having to 1 rax fe into 3rax against toss and rely on 10 minute timing in the early game. Please give me some builds i can find here on TL or somewhere else. thank you! Every build that used to be viable is still viable (except reapers). You just have to scout well and adapt them to what your opponent is doing. tvp builds that aren't 1rax cc 3rax: 1rax cc gasgas banshee cc gasgas raxrax ebayebay cloaked banshee cc tank cc hellion drop cc raxrax fact techlab(rax) hellion/marauder cc raxrax cc first raxrax bunker raxraxraxrax gasgasgas 1rax cc raxraxraxrax cc gasgasgas raxrax rax gas rax reactor techlab cc 1rax cc gasgas fact port armory fact cc fact fact ghostacad | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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