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On May 25 2012 09:25 monkybone wrote: On May 25 2012 08:47 ZeroTalent wrote: mid-diamond Terran here.
Since the queen buff, I have been having real trouble with Spanishiwa style no gas/fast 3rd/mass queens builds. My go-to build was 1rax FE followed by 3 rax and combat shield. When combat shield finishes I push out with ~20 marines. Before the patch it was a pretty good all-purpose timing. But now vs Spanishiwa style builds I just kill a couple of queens, which doesn't matter much because they have 4 or more of them so they have plenty of larva. And then I am behind economically in a big way; they take all 6 gasses and go mass muta or mass infestor or even just mass zergling/baneling and I get rolled in the mid/mid-late game.
What do I do to force Zerg to make units in the early game? Apply more fake pressure before combat shield finishes? Find a different build?
There are so many defensive Zerg openings that crushes this attack. Don't blame it on the queens, you have just met overly greedy Zergs. You should expect to lose all your marines and do minimal damage in the first place.
Thanks for the help. Oh wait, never mind.
More constructively, the point isn't to do damage so much as force units and keep the zerg from getting too far ahead economically. My micro is terrible which is why I didn't like reactored hellion openings even before the queen buff. Against two-base zerg you just don't attack; just deny creep versus, poke around, etc. Against a 3-base zerg I could almost always punish the expo, even if they made defensive banelings or roaches. But now against a mass queen opening I can't get much done.
IMO he's right, and I think you might want to re-think your build. Your timing attack hits quite late and you have no escape mechanism (no stim or medivacs). Did you recently see this build work at the pro level?
Im high diamond (as in I play some masters on ladder) and have issues with my Mech TvZ. Im generally fine except against 1 specific thing, roach drops. Into my main im fine, as I sim city well and leave a couple tanks with turrets. Its when its onto my main army that I just die.
They seem to just drop onto my sige tanks and my army just kills itself. OLs have effectively infinite HP, so Im not sure what im supposed to do. Is it just have a metric shit tn of thors to try and deny this? Im not sure on exactly numbers, but it takes like 10 thor shots to kill an OL i think.
Im high diamond (as in I play some masters on ladder) and have issues with my Mech TvZ. Im generally fine except against 1 specific thing, roach drops. Into my main im fine, as I sim city well and leave a couple tanks with turrets. Its when its onto my main army that I just die.
They seem to just drop onto my sige tanks and my army just kills itself. OLs have effectively infinite HP, so Im not sure what im supposed to do. Is it just have a metric shit tn of thors to try and deny this? Im not sure on exactly numbers, but it takes like 10 thor shots to kill an OL i think.
Well, mech TvZ has an emphasis on Thors (not only because it's needed to deal with roachdrops, but also because late-game you can never win TvZ if you have too many tanks, because techswitches kill you instantly). If you're too tank heavy you will never beat roach drops. What roach drop are you losing to mostly? There are different timings. For later ones you should have sensor towers in place in order to gather your army and intercept (of course it could be a fake drop, which is a pain in the ass to deal with, so always scan outside your natural/3rd when you see overlords heading to your main to see if he has a huge army just waiting to pounce) as well as have turret rings. For the really early drops it's all about pulling SCVs and repairing your thors.
If you do have a lot of tanks sieged and he's dropping you, it's important to unsiege.
I will say that roach drop is easily the strongest all-in against mech. It can feel almost impossible to defend sometimes.
On May 27 2012 06:02 Marathi wrote: Does anyone have a 1base banshee/marine all-in build.
I think this has been a bit popular lately in TvP, but does it work in TvT very well?
This is the 1-1-1 I like to do(stolen from puma or warden).
depot rax(3 marines) gas depot factory(make hellion when done and use for map control or sometimes you can run right into protoss base and kill probes, after hellion make a tech lab for port swap) reactor(after the 3 marines) gas port(same time as hellion, do tech lab swap) banshee+cloak tech lab on factory tanks+siege
Harass with banshee and don't lose them. Produce nonstop marines and tanks and move out when you have 3-4 tanks with siege.
This build is very potent if micro'd correctly. You can stay on 1 base or throw down a CC after your initial banshee harass. It works great in TvP and TvT.
Hello, I need some help in my TvP early game: Assuming that I scout a standard gateway with cybercore, what is the best time to scan his natural to see whether he is indeed committed into early aggression or whether he is transitioning into a macro game? Also, if I see his natural, what information can I read off from him having taken his natural gas or not?
I am trying to find some sort of safe game plan, which allows me to play 1 rax fe into mech (thor/hellion) against protoss... :-/
I am sure most Terran players have experienced the depot not raising even though you know you selected it and pressed R. I have also seen several Terran streamers having this problem. There seems to be bug if you press the standard hotkey R too quickly when raising one depot after the other.
The solution is simply to bind raise depot to a different hotkey than lower depot is on. Then hold the raise hotkey and individually click the depots you want to raise.
On May 27 2012 10:25 JustPassingBy wrote: Hello, I need some help in my TvP early game: Assuming that I scout a standard gateway with cybercore, what is the best time to scan his natural to see whether he is indeed committed into early aggression or whether he is transitioning into a macro game? Also, if I see his natural, what information can I read off from him having taken his natural gas or not?
I am trying to find some sort of safe game plan, which allows me to play 1 rax fe into mech (thor/hellion) against protoss... :-/
Generally you'll want to run in an scv to see if you can get lucky, it's better than planning to scan. Standard 1 gas gate core expand timing is 5:00. The more popular double gas 4 probe opening, you can expect to see an expansion building at that time. Even a protoss who's playing really safe, like a 1 gate 1 robo expand will expand by 5:30.
5:00 is standard, 5:30 is the latest. If there's no expo by 5:30, you'll need at least 2 bunkers to hold whatever he's doing.
natural gases depend on how early you scout them, and if protoss opened double gas. Obviously more gas means more tech. This'll be an experience thing you have to get use to, because it's a combination of counting gas units like sentries, knowledge of whether he has a robo or not, seeing how much gas is mined, AND when he got his expansion to let you know what he's doing. A tip is just to be aware of what you've scouted so far in the game, and when you scan, click both gases and see how much he's mined; this is suppose to give you a decent idea of what he's spending it on. The only timings that really stick out are something like a protoss who goes 1 gate fe with 2 gas, 3 probes each, and then gets double gas immediately at his nat. That's a pretty strong tell of a colossus all-in, because he needs a ton of gas to support robo, robo bay, colo, colo range, as well as stalker/sentry.
I'm not sure when standard double gas at the nat is, but you can always pop open a pro tvp replay and check it out.
On May 27 2012 12:22 ymhr6 wrote: I want to 1rax expand into mech in tvt, how should I open after I grab the 2 gasses after expansion? I prefer something safe.
You can go reactor hellion, but make sure you get a starport up quickly too in case of banshee.
On May 27 2012 10:25 JustPassingBy wrote: Hello, I need some help in my TvP early game: Assuming that I scout a standard gateway with cybercore, what is the best time to scan his natural to see whether he is indeed committed into early aggression or whether he is transitioning into a macro game? Also, if I see his natural, what information can I read off from him having taken his natural gas or not?
I am trying to find some sort of safe game plan, which allows me to play 1 rax fe into mech (thor/hellion) against protoss... :-/
Depends on the toss' build. if he goes 1 gate expand, scan his natural @ the 8:00 mark. both gases taken can mean double forge or squirtle's 2 base colossus timing. no gases taken can be either an early 3rd or a 6 gate.
~20:00 mark: cloud and hashe discuss this and how the scan timing changes if they got nexus first, forge expand, etc.
On May 27 2012 10:25 JustPassingBy wrote: Hello, I need some help in my TvP early game: Assuming that I scout a standard gateway with cybercore, what is the best time to scan his natural to see whether he is indeed committed into early aggression or whether he is transitioning into a macro game? Also, if I see his natural, what information can I read off from him having taken his natural gas or not?
I am trying to find some sort of safe game plan, which allows me to play 1 rax fe into mech (thor/hellion) against protoss... :-/
Generally you'll want to run in an scv to see if you can get lucky, it's better than planning to scan. Standard 1 gas gate core expand timing is 5:00. The more popular double gas 4 probe opening, you can expect to see an expansion building at that time. Even a protoss who's playing really safe, like a 1 gate 1 robo expand will expand by 5:30.
5:00 is standard, 5:30 is the latest. If there's no expo by 5:30, you'll need at least 2 bunkers to hold whatever he's doing.
natural gases depend on how early you scout them, and if protoss opened double gas. Obviously more gas means more tech. This'll be an experience thing you have to get use to, because it's a combination of counting gas units like sentries, knowledge of whether he has a robo or not, seeing how much gas is mined, AND when he got his expansion to let you know what he's doing. A tip is just to be aware of what you've scouted so far in the game, and when you scan, click both gases and see how much he's mined; this is suppose to give you a decent idea of what he's spending it on. The only timings that really stick out are something like a protoss who goes 1 gate fe with 2 gas, 3 probes each, and then gets double gas immediately at his nat. That's a pretty strong tell of a colossus all-in, because he needs a ton of gas to support robo, robo bay, colo, colo range, as well as stalker/sentry.
I'm not sure when standard double gas at the nat is, but you can always pop open a pro tvp replay and check it out.
On May 27 2012 10:25 JustPassingBy wrote: Hello, I need some help in my TvP early game: Assuming that I scout a standard gateway with cybercore, what is the best time to scan his natural to see whether he is indeed committed into early aggression or whether he is transitioning into a macro game? Also, if I see his natural, what information can I read off from him having taken his natural gas or not?
I am trying to find some sort of safe game plan, which allows me to play 1 rax fe into mech (thor/hellion) against protoss... :-/
Depends on the toss' build. if he goes 1 gate expand, scan his natural @ the 8:00 mark. both gases taken can mean double forge or squirtle's 2 base colossus timing. no gases taken can be either an early 3rd or a 6 gate.
~20:00 mark: cloud and hashe discuss this and how the scan timing changes if they got nexus first, forge expand, etc.
kk, thank you, thank you. Since I am going thors asap in my mech build, I think I am safe against most two base timing attacks that are common in my league (at least those I have faced so far). The problem are really the one base ones which kind of catch me off guard, like I build enough bunkers against potential 4-gate but then he stands in front of my door with dts, seconds after I called down the last mule. Maybe I could just have some random unit standing in front of my base, to give me the more warning time of an incoming attack that a player of my skill needs, but then again, any decent protoss would never let his army be scouted like that. I guess sacrificing one scan is still the best method of determine whether a dedicated one base push is incoming.
On May 27 2012 06:02 Marathi wrote: Does anyone have a 1base banshee/marine all-in build.
I think this has been a bit popular lately in TvP, but does it work in TvT very well?
This is the 1-1-1 I like to do(stolen from puma or warden).
depot rax(3 marines) gas depot factory(make hellion when done and use for map control or sometimes you can run right into protoss base and kill probes, after hellion make a tech lab for port swap) reactor(after the 3 marines) gas port(same time as hellion, do tech lab swap) banshee+cloak tech lab on factory tanks+siege
Harass with banshee and don't lose them. Produce nonstop marines and tanks and move out when you have 3-4 tanks with siege.
This build is very potent if micro'd correctly. You can stay on 1 base or throw down a CC after your initial banshee harass. It works great in TvP and TvT.
I find that iechoic's hellion drop strat also highly effective against the current trend of greedy protoss openers. It skips tanks but you get 2 port banshees instead.
On May 27 2012 12:22 ymhr6 wrote: I want to 1rax expand into mech in tvt, how should I open after I grab the 2 gasses after expansion? I prefer something safe.
Did your opponent expand or not? That makes a big difference.
If he didn't expand you get fac @100gas, reactor on rax @50gas and starport when fac is done. Proceed to make marine/tank/viking in able to hold off whatever he's throwing your way. This should hold literally every single 1base your opponent can do. After you've defended, build a fac on your reactor and one more fac (2facs with techlabs and 1 with reactor) and proceed to go mech/viking and add double armories pretty quick.
If your opponent also went for a 1rax expand you can play it a lot less "safe" since you know nothing early is coming. I like going reactor hellions + cloakshee or just fast 3fac (fac, fac, port, fac, gotta be safe against potential air harass) and pump mech.
i remember avilo talked about the MMA build in TvP it should be something like No Gas Fe into 2 Rax into Cloak Banshee for map control and he mentioned that this build is really save against everything..
Does anyone knows an exact build order or can give me a link with a replay/vod of this build that i can study it on my own?
On May 27 2012 23:02 saaaa wrote: i remember avilo talked about the MMA build in TvP it should be something like No Gas Fe into 2 Rax into Cloak Banshee for map control and he mentioned that this build is really save against everything..
Does anyone knows an exact build order or can give me a link with a replay/vod of this build that i can study it on my own?
On May 27 2012 23:02 saaaa wrote: i remember avilo talked about the MMA build in TvP it should be something like No Gas Fe into 2 Rax into Cloak Banshee for map control and he mentioned that this build is really save against everything..
Does anyone knows an exact build order or can give me a link with a replay/vod of this build that i can study it on my own?
I wanna talk about the current metagame TvZ, and will be looking for any pros/master thoughts about it.
There has been a very popular 1 rax FE into hellions and into banshees lateron - i was thinking about mixing 1 raven (instead of 2ed banshee, not getting cloak, but getting HSM upgrde instead).
I m not talking about a HUGE Raven compostion or mech heavy compostion that evolves ravens many times - i m just talking bout 1 raven that will be produced after the 1st banshee. and his role during that game (ofc with the detection abilty) will be to land that 1 cruical seeker missle on that 1 cruical big 160 engagement.
Let me summurize it abit - getting 1 raven, with HSM upgrdes insatead of the more normal 2ed banshee and cloak that usally comes with that build.
EPT
